Why is the MoP mage specs so similar and homogenized?

[PenguinChan]

Yes. I played warlock on beta. All specs are the same if you look at them from this point (filler, dot/buff, proc, resourse).

Sadly, this is what Warlock has been since Cataclysm, and to a lesser extent Wrath of the Lich King. It's why I instantly shelved mine the entire Cataclysm Expansion, knowing I wasn't anything different from the other specializations, or even a shadow priest from a rotational Point of View. Ah well, maybe Mists of Pandaria will make Affliction better.

[Deleted]

It's like the PVP whine. They want only fire, Arcane or frost for the respective spec.

With this logic, blizzard can make spec a lot easier: "All your spell will look depend on the spec you choose"

[Jimm3]

No matter how similar the specs or the choice of talents what will push any spec ahead of another is the player's skill...nothings gonna change that no matter what blizzard does..

[Fim]

That was my point.
The argument that mage specs are too similar because they share a filler spell, a bomb and a proc is a ludicrous argument.

That was a very small part of the argument I was trying to make here

Fundamentally, the way they've achieved this balance for single target and <=3 target scenarios is by watering down cooldowns - AP doesn't give you as much of a damage increase, IV is weak, Combustion doesn't hurt nearly as badly because it's a short CD, and coupled with the target cap and new ignite mechanics, it's not as potent as in Cata.

Direct damage for most spells has been reduced and moved to DoTs and every spec can now pick the same high mobility talent (which lets not kid ourselves, in a movement heavy fight, it's going to be scorch). The entire level 90 tier is terrible - it makes sense for one spec of the three, and there is no synergy with the other two, other than forcing them to evocate or stand still. They've also decided that we had too much mobility in PvP, so several spells, including armors are casted now.

The result feels a bit off to me - no encounter on beta is strict patchwerk - there are extra damage phases, or some movement, or adds or whatever. I felt I was always picking the same talents, regardless of what spec I had chosen, because there were clearly optimal talents fight by fight - each spec then was just trying to use the same talents as best as possible while spamming filler and using CDs effectively. More to the point, each spec had a strong identity in Cata - Fire was strong at AoE, Arcane was great single target burst, and Frost was the go to PvP spec and had exceptional control. None of them really retain enough of the sense of that identity.

I'm actually glad that they managed to balance the specs on single target patchwerk - Frost and Arcane's changes are good here, but I feel that they need to keep more of the flavor the specs had in Cata. And it's little things here that they can do to make the difference. The idea of a DoT for example, is just to take some direct damage out and spread it over time - it helps the healers out in PvP, it makes it so we have another button to hit in PvE. But that doesn't need an actual DoT for example - Frost has a water elemental - give it a short cooldown "Swell" like the mobs in Throne of the Tides, that does some pulsed damage over a few seconds. That could be balanced to achieve the same result, but in encourages Frost to manage it's pet more effectively, and it goes thematically with the spec or at least more so that a Frost mage having dotting up everything with Nether Tempest.

Fire having to spread DoTs, and then use a casted Flamestrike followed by a channeled Blizzard again feels wrong. Might be balanced but that isn't the flavor of the spec - that isn't why we like it in the first place. Ditto with Arcane - it's great that there is a reason to cast something that isn't AB, and using AM procs and ABarr cleave feels good. What doesn't feel good IMO is taking away some of our direct damage from AP and moving into a DoT. I like Arcane's ability to line up AP with trinket/enchant procs and I want to see a giant peak in the WoL damage report when I pop AP - not a minor speed bump - it doesn't matter that the damage works out the same - it's more that the former feels better IMO.

The other thing I worry about with this obsession about intra-spec balance is that, what we really want is to compete on DPS overall - with other classes - not just mages. In several situations, these classes are simply going to pull ahead because the devs aren't worried about balancing say boomkin dps vs resto dps, so there hasn't been a need to nerf boomkin multi-dotting for instance.

---

Also, in all of this, Lhiv is getting a very unfair rap - he's done a fabulous job on those profiles. It's one thing to not like how the mage specs are playstyle wise, but its emphatically a good thing that Frost is more competitive now and it's a good thing that we have someone willing to make those profiles, but he's not to blame for Blizzard designing talents that some of us find lackluster.

[zomgDPS]

so arcane is about building a resorce. DPS

fire is more about dots keeping them rolling. DPS

frost is about stacking a debuff to make your hits bigger and has a pet. DPS

Umm... I don't know what you are smoking or playing buts thats totally not what the three specs are about.

Every spec has a DoT now, Fire isn't about "keeping your dots rolling". Every spec has a main nuke and every spec has a proc.

Frost's stacking debuff only exists because of PvP, you don't have to "manage it" lol.

God how can people be so ignorant of their own class.

---------- Post added 2012-08-10 at 11:34 AM ----------

Also, trying to blame one individual (e.g., Lhivera) for all three specs feeling homogenized is silly. Lhivera was focused mostly on helping to improve Frost spec. Other people provided feedback on the other specs and Blizzard took all of that into account. He also performed lots of AoE analysis and general sim work for all specs.

Also, in all of this, Lhiv is getting a very unfair rap - he's done a fabulous job on those profiles. It's one thing to not like how the mage specs are playstyle wise, but its emphatically a good thing that Frost is more competitive now and it's a good thing that we have someone willing to make those profiles, but he's not to blame for Blizzard designing talents that some of us find lackluster.

I think people are referring to his actions in the earlier part of beta, before the numbers passes that are happening now were occurring and back when the actual design of the specs was being discussed and worked on.

He was very adamant on two things.

1. Spec "theme" due to some RPG notion. I.e. he wants to play a frost mage so there must be an 'All Frost' talent option. In fact, he spent so much time derailing conversations about real issues that it was pretty easy to see that he really, really has nothing better to do than be on the forums all day.


2. The Frost spec. He outright stated many many times that the frost spec was the only spec that needed attention. He actively went into threads that were trying to discuss either Fire or Arcane and actively derailed them back to Frost. Take a look for yourselves right now, there is a thread on the official forums right now trying to discuss the Arcane spec and Lhivera is in it telling everyone that their feedback is wrong and that the only thing that matters is that Icy Veins needs a buff.


I think one of the other things that is contributing to the bad image people have of him is that he doesn't understand that his green text means that blizzard cares about what he has to say and not that he has to defend blizzard at every corner. Take a look at that level 90 talent thread. EVERY OTHER SINGLE MAGE in that thread is saying that they do NOT like the design of the level 90 talents, but Lhivera is just blowing them off "well just because".

He is unable to give a single reason why and is basically telling people that they are wrong for not liking the level 90 talents. That is just poor form. Yes, he plays the game and lives for it, but that doesn't mean he can go around telling people they are wrong just because he wants to.


Whats worse, is that he is using his connections with blizzard (and his green text) to just get what he wants out of the beta, namely, the complete dominance of the frost spec, and lo and behold that is exactly what has happened. Across the board, reports have come in and stated clearly that not only is the frost spec the strongest spec in actual raid situations, but it is also the most fun to play. Mission Accomplished, no?

At the end of the day, dont get me wrong, many of us appreciate his work for the frost spec and for simcraft and all that, but his biases and his ego are not something people need to deal with.

Everyone has a dirty side, its just unfortunate that his dirty side is having such a massive impact on the mage class.

[myhoodyourhood]

guess ill stop playing my mage

[Tickspoon]

Everyone has a dirty side, its just unfortunate that his dirty side is having such a massive impact on the mage class.

Or alternately, you're just silly.

[Troublechild]

frost spec pve requires ridiculous amounts of attention if you've even bothered playing it efficiently. it's actually quite absurd compared to any other rotation in game

seems to have very high burst dps output and fairly high sustained dps. the drawback? requires a lot of work. it's more of a skill priority set than an actual rotation. placing down nether tempest for mana+sp increase every 1min, deepfreeze every 25sec, frost orb every 1min for insanely high fingers of frost procs, frost bolt(main spell), frostfire bolt (when brainfreeze+fingers of frost is up), icelance w/ fingers of frost, reapplying frostbomb every 10sec(reduced by haste but not calculating haste into this) even though the dot actually only lasts 5sec(also reduced with haste) so you really have to watch the cooldown on that (absolutely necessary to reapply since it procs brainfreeze). haste cooldowns are icyveins which is really low and increases haste greatly.

[Shiny212]

In as few words as possible; to make it easier.

[JaoStar]

I'd hate to break it to ya, but mages aren't the only ones that are beginning to feel like this, most other classes are as well.

True, especially pures, however unlike hunters who have a pet spec, unlike rogues who have a daggers and a sword spec, unlike warriors who have a tanking spec, locks who have a dot and a pet class, mages are only identified by the color of the spells nothing else. Mages also have one of the fewest new spells as most of our talents are the same just disseminated among the three specs. Don't get me wrong I like alter time and some of the new talents that we got but there is too much homogenized with the mage class than others.

[mmochamp7280]

homogenization has been the name of the game
for about 4 years now
they want to balance it like an FPS
while being an RPG
and you can't do that

[Meillassoux]

Lets see it from a casual's perspective abit cause lets face it, most players are casuals not hardcore raiders (although I am not casual).
Before Cata why would someone play with the mage class? 3 reasons mainly:
1)Fire's crazy AoE that felt like you can destroy anything in your path
2)Arcane's crazy single cd burst. I am not talking about dps here, I am talking about the feeling that once you open all your cds nothing lives.
3)Frost's crazy control. Playing with your targets, not letting them hit you at all and have them running around while being slowed like lambs ready for slaughter.

And here lies the difference between evolution and change.
Evolution means becoming better at what you already are good while changing means becoming something else.
Mages changed in a bad way (my personal opinion ofc). Instead of improving the main reasons a casual player would play each specc they tried improving each specc's weaknesses while nerfing their strong points (frost's control is an exception here) and thus making each specc look the same.
Now every specc has a shield, good control, they have almost the same burst and ofc the most obsurd, no specc has any aoe.... just cleave attacks. |
I understand wanting to balance mage with every other class but I don't unterstand why every specc in a class has to be the same. I like having weaknesses and trying to bypass them using my strong points and I want them to be different in every specc and thus making dual specc and respeccing meaningful. Right now it feels like I am choosing between red, blue or pink.... which is totally boring because our spell animations are lame next to the other casters and we rarely get new damaging spells. So it's like "everything is balanced now but nothing is exciting, pick the color of your poison...."

And a reply about comments like "every class is like this". I don't give a F, I care only about my class and about the fact that it feels worse than before, simple as that.

[Gamdwelf]

Lets see it from a casual's perspective abit cause lets face it, most players are casuals not hardcore raiders (although I am not casual).
Before Cata why would someone play with the mage class? 3 reasons mainly:
1)Fire's crazy AoE that felt like you can destroy anything in your path
2)Arcane's crazy single cd burst. I am not talking about dps here, I am talking about the feeling that once you open all your cds nothing lives.
3)Frost's crazy control. Playing with your targets, not letting them hit you at all and have them running around while being slowed like lambs ready for slaughter.

And here lies the difference between evolution and change.
Evolution means becoming better at what you already are good while changing means becoming something else.
Mages changed in a bad way (my personal opinion ofc). Instead of improving the main reasons a casual player would play each specc they tried improving each specc's weaknesses while nerfing their strong points (frost's control is an exception here) and thus making each specc look the same.
Now every specc has a shield, good control, they have almost the same burst and ofc the most obsurd, no specc has any aoe.... just cleave attacks. |
I understand wanting to balance mage with every other class but I don't unterstand why every specc in a class has to be the same. I like having weaknesses and trying to bypass them using my strong points and I want them to be different in every specc and thus making dual specc and respeccing meaningful. Right now it feels like I am choosing between red, blue or pink.... which is totally boring because our spell animations are lame next to the other casters and we rarely get new damaging spells. So it's like "everything is balanced now but nothing is exciting, pick the color of your poison...."

And a reply about comments like "every class is like this". I don't give a F, I care only about my class and about the fact that it feels worse than before, simple as that.

And this is exactly what is wrong with the game, the community. Blizzard has made the game better for everyone, they can't just buff up the class/spec that you like.

Looks like they have finally made frost good in PvE so hopefully I don't get laughed out of raids for playing the spec I like before we even pull the first boss.
And now other people will be able to play something other than frost in PvP because it is the spec they like to play.

You think all the mage specs are the same now, do you remember a time before cataclysm and wrath when fire was pretty much spam fire ball only, and frost only spam frostbolt, while arcane was not even a useful spec in any facet of the game other than to get utility points after you had a main spec?

[Rorschachs]

frost spec pve requires ridiculous amounts of attention if you've even bothered playing it efficiently. it's actually quite absurd compared to any other rotation in game

seems to have very high burst dps output and fairly high sustained dps. the drawback? requires a lot of work. it's more of a skill priority set than an actual rotation. placing down nether tempest for mana+sp increase every 1min, deepfreeze every 25sec, frost orb every 1min for insanely high fingers of frost procs, frost bolt(main spell), frostfire bolt (when brainfreeze+fingers of frost is up), icelance w/ fingers of frost, reapplying frostbomb every 10sec(reduced by haste but not calculating haste into this) even though the dot actually only lasts 5sec(also reduced with haste) so you really have to watch the cooldown on that (absolutely necessary to reapply since it procs brainfreeze). haste cooldowns are icyveins which is really low and increases haste greatly.

Deep freeze does no damage in mop so I don't get the point of that and how do you plan to frostbomb if you nether tempest? Just keep your dots up, spam frostbolt and use ice lance or frostfire bolt depending on your procs. Not that hard.

[Gamdwelf]

Deep freeze does no damage in mop so I don't get the point of that and how do you plan to frostbomb if you nether tempest? Just keep your dots up, spam frostbolt and use ice lance or frostfire bolt depending on your procs. Not that hard.

^ You are going to do horrible frost dps.

you are not even using frost orb or your pet, cool downs, or your lvl 90 talent.

[Imnick]

I imagine when he said "place down mana tempest" he meant the rune of power

[Rorschachs]

^ You are going to do horrible frost dps.

you are not even using frost orb or your pet, cool downs, or your lvl 90 talent.

Not using lvl 90 talent is like not using arcane brilliance, is it really worth mentioning? The others are cooldowns, I didn't include cooldowns.

If you will feel any better.. Use pet freeze and frost orb on cooldown for fingers of frost procs. lol

[Meillassoux]

And this is exactly what is wrong with the game, the community. Blizzard has made the game better for everyone, they can't just buff up the class/spec that you like.

Looks like they have finally made frost good in PvE so hopefully I don't get laughed out of raids for playing the spec I like before we even pull the first boss.
And now other people will be able to play something other than frost in PvP because it is the spec they like to play.

You think all the mage specs are the same now, do you remember a time before cataclysm and wrath when fire was pretty much spam fire ball only, and frost only spam frostbolt, while arcane was not even a useful spec in any facet of the game other than to get utility points after you had a main spec?

I never said that being able to pvp and pve with any specc is bad. I said that each specc slowly lost the unique feeling it had. But ok I don't expect you to understand it cause we've been through a topic like this at the start of the beta. I agree with you in one thing though, that one major problem of the game is the community, ofc speaking from a different perspective .
And if you are talking about TBC, back then the game was totally different and the expectations about things like these weren't high but the times changed and better things were introduced like for example how unique each specc can be. Blizz made this change not the community but now it feels like they are taking it back so everything can be balanced. So my point is that classes being balanced is a good things, speccs being balanced isn't always though.

[grexly75]

Everyone talks about homogenization / cookie cutter of the classes, specs and the talents when in some respect it has always been like that, but just in the guise of choice. Consider that in all this time you always tended to follow the most optimum talent set that at the time did the most damage for that spec. And to that end you were no different to others of your class and spec and what did make you different from others was how you played the class and your gearing and everything else.

[Jimm3]

Everyone talks about homogenization / cookie cutter of the classes, specs and the talents when in some respect it has always been like that, but just in the guise of choice. Consider that in all this time you always tended to follow the most optimum talent set that at the time did the most damage for that spec. And to that end you were no different to others of your class and spec and what did make you different from others was how you played the class and your gearing and everything else.

+1
ppl like to have the freedom of choice so they can all choose the same ....Then it's all good...