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  1. #201
    Humans are flawed, and therefore our justice system is flawed. Every innocent man put to death in America is essentially tax-payer funded murder. And yes, innocent men have been, and are, being put to death plenty.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Its a pretty simply question, not sure why you dodged it.

    Does our environment shape us? Is it part of what makes us who we are?

    Or are we entirely of our own design?

    Which one?
    Because it's a loaded question you are using to shape your position.

    However, I'll bite. Sure, your environment shapes you. But, that doesn't absolve you of your own personal accountability. Just because you grew up poor, or are poor, is no justification to commit crime.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Northy View Post
    Humans are flawed, and therefore our justice system is flawed. Every innocent man put to death in America is essentially tax-payer funded murder. And yes, innocent men have been, and are, being put to death plenty.
    You are totally correct, but do you propose a better system? I mean I'm guessing you agree people need to be held accountable, but I surely hope you don't think we have the means to house people indefinitely on the "assumption" that they MAY end up being found "not guilty"?

  4. #204
    He's too retarded to be executed, but not retarded enough to abduct and shoot a police officer, among the other aggravated robbery charges before hand. He obviously had a family, so his mama and sisters should have helped raise their poor, simple minded son right.

    Im speaking coming from a family with multiple brothers with mental disabilities, and our parents never let their kids run the streets doing whatever they wanted til it snowballed into drugs and crimes. They take care of them and their disabilities. Its really hard for me to comprehend how some parents can be so careless they dont even bother with raising their kids properly.

  5. #205
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    Do you realize what you are saying? People who grow up in poverty are going to commit crimes (steal) for the rest of their lives. People who grow up in an abusive situation are going to beat people the rest of their lives. People who grow up living like royalty are going to be rich forever. Sadly, it doesn't work that way. While I'm not saying it doesn't "happen" I sincerely doubt the "groups" that are more likely to commit X crime over X group is somehow based on the fact they "grew up" a certain way.


    You're missing the point. It can contribute to it but isn't the ultimate factor.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    Let me dissect your post example by example. -snip-
    I hope you didn't take my unwillingness to list every single aspect of it in my post as the only reasons it costs so much but those were examples of things that increase costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    You got any facts to back that up?
    It costs $47,102 to house one prisoner per year in the state of Californina.

    http://www.lao.ca.gov/laoapp/laomenu...t.aspx?catid=3

    Now times that times 40 year for a life sentence and you get $1,884,080.
    And that isn't even accounting for inflation.

    So are you honestly saying the price of lethal injection is higher? With a straight face?

    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
    The study they base their findings on: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/cali...ost-study-2011
    A seperate analysis of an older study (2003) http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/i...h-penalty-cost

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Because it's a loaded question you are using to shape your position.

    However, I'll bite. Sure, your environment shapes you. But, that doesn't absolve you of your own personal accountability. Just because you grew up poor, or are poor, is no justification to commit crime.
    Again, no one is saying people aren't accountable for what they do. That's a tired strawman.

    But if our environment shapes us then certainly some environments shape us to be criminal in nature, correct? Like poverty? So while someone who grew up poor is still responsible for what he did, the environment he grew up in is also, in part, to blame. Correct?

  8. #208
    Has there ever been a person executed that could be classified as completely sane*? Normal people just don't the kind of things that end up in execution.

    * I'm excluding military executions, because sometimes the only sane thing to do is run away even if you would have risked being executed as a coward.

  9. #209
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    So let me ask you this, the jury spent roughly 5 minutes "deciding" his fate? They went into the jury room knowing he confessed and said "yep, the prosecuter is right, he's guilty, fry him"?

    I really hope I never come face to face with a jury if that's the case then. I surely hope they looked at the evidence and then decided if he did it or not?

    I seriously still doubt someone is going to SAY he committed a crime he didn't because he's retarded or doesn't understand what the police are asking him. While I don't disagree about it happening, I really doubt it's a "significant" number of police "beating" people to admit to crimes they didn't commit to where it happens anytime frequently.

    I have no clue how "criminal" court proceedings go, but I would surely hope they don't go into the court-room and say "he said he was guilty, here's his confession, what's his sentence" and then "death it is".
    Don't be surprised, these things happen more often than not.

  10. #210
    Has there ever been a person executed that could be classified as completely sane*? Normal people just don't the kind of things that end up in execution.
    "Othering" criminals is not a good idea.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Again, no one is saying people aren't accountable for what they do. That's a tired strawman.

    But if our environment shapes us then certainly some environments shape us to be criminal in nature, correct? Like poverty? So while someone who grew up poor is still responsible for what he did, the environment he grew up in is also, in part, to blame. Correct?
    If it's not an excuse, then why even bring it up? He/she is responsible for their actions, regardless of where they came from.

  12. #212
    I don't understand how they based his intelligence off a 9th grade school reading book. I've read Of mice and men and first off Lennie didn't even mean to kill the girl so I am not sure how this case relates to the other.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmelded View Post
    I hope you didn't take my unwillingness to list every single aspect of it in my post as the only reasons it costs so much but those were examples of things that increase costs.




    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
    The study they base their findings on: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/cali...ost-study-2011
    A seperate analysis of an older study (2003) http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/i...h-penalty-cost
    All that information concludes is that not allowing the appeal process to last indefinitely is a needed change if the current system is going to remain in place.

    Seriously? $143 MILLION for 5 death penalty cases? What. The. Fuck.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    If it's not an excuse, then why even bring it up? He/she is responsible for their actions, regardless of where they came from.
    Because people need to understand crime and why it happens. When we just say "oh he was a bad man" we pave the way for all kinds of ignorance and horribleness. We need to understand that we're products of the world we're in and that if we really want to deal with crime we need to deal with the environment that breeds crime.

    "Othering" people, who ever they are, is just an excuse for not wanting to try to understand. And willful ignorance is never acceptable.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    All that information concludes is that not allowing the appeal process to last indefinitely is a needed change if the current system is going to remain in place.

    Seriously? $143 MILLION for 5 death penalty cases? What. The. Fuck.
    What you want is to deprive people of their rights to save money. Fuck no.

    Either we have an expensive as all hell death penalty to try to ensure that people aren't wrongfully executed (which probably happens anyway) or we just don't have the death penalty.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Because people need to understand crime and why it happens. When we just say "oh he was a bad man" we pave the way for all kinds of ignorance and horribleness. We need to understand that we're products of the world we're in and that if we really want to deal with crime we need to deal with the environment that breeds crime.

    "Othering" people, who ever they are, is just an excuse for not wanting to try to understand. And willful ignorance is never acceptable.
    So, if a black guy and a white guy commit the same crime, the black guy gets a lesser punishment because he grew up in poverty? What other reason is there to bring it up.

    If there is no context for poverty causing crime other than as an excuse, why mention it.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    All that information concludes is that not allowing the appeal process to last indefinitely is a needed change if the current system is going to remain in place.

    Seriously? $143 MILLION for 5 death penalty cases? What. The. Fuck.
    People should be able to attempt to prove their innocence as often as they can (within reason, like two within two weeks etc... isn't what I mean) If there is enough evidence to prove innocence then you already shouldn't be killing them. They're supposed to be '100% guilty' anyway, last I checked we weren't killing and imprisoning people on a hunch.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    So, if a black guy and a white guy commit the same crime, the black guy gets a lesser punishment because he grew up in poverty? What other reason is there to bring it up.

    If there is no context for poverty causing crime other than as an excuse, why mention it.
    I'm pretty sure he's saying that we should focus on eliminating poverty and the like.

  19. #219
    Legendary! The One Percent's Avatar
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    I'm only against the death penalty because we have no strong way to be sure someone committed the crime. I mean, look at all the people who were exonerated when DNA evidence started being used. However, excluding the chance of putting a innocent man to death, mental facilities should have nothing to do with death penalties. If you are so retarded that you can't tell right from wrong, you're better off dead and we're better off having you dead. The only thing that matters is if you did it or not, which police are often are wrong, corrupt, and/or overzealous when it comes to figuring that out.

    The second we have facilities to be able to tell if someone committed a crime with a 99.99% (100% is just fantasy) then off to the meat grinder all the pedophiles, rapists, murderers, and corporate thieves who steal peoples life savings via stock market go.
    You're getting exactly what you deserve.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    So, if a black guy and a white guy commit the same crime, the black guy gets a lesser punishment because he grew up in poverty? What other reason is there to bring it up.

    If there is no context for poverty causing crime other than as an excuse, why mention it.
    You admit that people are effected by their environment. If that is the case then the environment is part of why people become criminals. Again, and I know you'll try this one again, no one is saying that people aren't responsible for the crimes they commit. But that doesn't mean that environment is not also part of the equation.

    Which is why crime is so much more prevalent among african americans. Because they tend to live in poverty compared to whites.

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