The human soul - it's time to get to the bottom of this

[thelordymir]

Yet we can't just use that as an excuse to go "Oh, you don't know? Magic it is, then!"

Isn't that how we regard certain likes though? I mean we don't say "magic" but what about dark matter and other concepts that science knew/know exist, but didn't have any clue how to go about studying back int he day.

[semaphore]

wasnt it 75 billion light years?

Was it? Well something along those lines.

[Deleted]

show me an observation of the soul.

the sun is.

[OrcsRLame]

It's a false paradox. You're making a ton of assumptions about the singularity that resulted in the Big Bang (and about the Universe). You're proposing we answer something as impossibly complicated as "what started it all?" when we don't even know what "it" was before it started. You're taking that unimaginably complicated event and boiling it down to "something happened, what started it?"

Does it matter what, "it" was before it started? You're exactly right, I am taking an unimaginably complicated event and boiling it down to that. It doesn't matter what things were like before, "it" was started because something would have had to create that too. The fine details are irrelevant unless they would somehow change the paradigm of our understanding of space and time.

[Gheld]

Emotions is real because it is observable. Show me an observation of the soul.

Show me a direct observation of an atom. (Hint: You can't. But you can know of the existence of something based on its effects on the things around it.)

So either you have to deny the existence of free will, or admit that there's a lot more to consciousness than mere random electrical impulses.

[mittacc]

Not everything in this world that is real is material.

Love, hate, enjoyment, disappointment etc...

I believe that is fro myour brains :P

[Deleted]

That's true, but in order to look for it, we have to first define it as precisely as possible.

And too define it as accurately possible, there needs to be verifiable proof of it's existence. See how that works?

[OrcsRLame]

Yeah we do. The universe is estimated to have a radius of 46 billion light years.

Estimations are not proof. That's what's known as the observable universe. It has its own wikipedia page if you'd like to look it up.

[semaphore]

Show me a direct observation of an atom.

I never said direct. The point is that it produces a measurable effect that can be objectively and independently measured. Neither of which applies to conventional definitions of a soul.

So either you have to deny the existence of free will, or admit that there's a lot more to consciousness than mere random electrical impulses.

Who said it's random?

[Deleted]

Love hate enjoyment etc feelings can be observed on other life forms not just on humans, my iguana for example takes great pride of stealing the cheddar on my hamburger,

but i still cant see a soul on anything

[Albert the fish]

Was it? Well something along those lines.

even then it's only a theory.

afaik right now the idea is that if all the mass in the universe is exactly at a particular critical threshold, the universe must be finite and if it's above or below that threshold it must be infinite. right now with the inclusion of dark matter and dark energy we may have exactly critical threshold of mass in the universe and this suggests a finite universe.

that's still hotly debated theory though, or have i missed breaking news? i almost hope i have.

[Deleted]

Was it? Well something along those lines.

ya it should be roughly 75 billion light years wide, but its growth seems to be either hasting or narrowing :P but eventualy we get the real answer to our universe

[Deleted]

That's true, but in order to look for it, we have to first define it as precisely as possible.

Greater minds than those of this forum (which I wouldn't even rate as average) think about this subject. They haven't defined what it is, to my knowledge. So trying to do it here is a wild goose chase.
That, and people don't even remotely have the competence to discuss this subject. They may protest against me saying so, but only because they're ignorant.

If you want to talk about what is and defines what conciousness is, then it would be "easier" to discuss. But a soul? That's not science, that's hokus pokus.

[Sodka]

It is a persons belief, either way you can't prove or disprove that a soul exists...

[Dendrek]

Actually, we don't know if the universe is finite or not. We can only observe so much, (about 9 nonillion Earth's worth of mass in what we've observed so far) we also don't know that those boundaries don't exist.

And how is the notion that there must be an absolute origin fallacious? What fallacy is that specifically? There is nothing we have ever observed that hasn't had a beginning. The very idea that there isn't an absolute origin seems absurd to me. Nothing else in nature just exists for no reason.

You observe a universe that constantly undergoes entropy and operates on the principle of cause and effect -- both of which affect all things in the Universe -- and you apply those same concepts to the beginning of the Universe. Of course your observations are true of the Universe as we currently exist in it, but there's no evidence at all that those same observations apply to the Universe before it even contained mass. Who knows what it was before it expanded? Who knows how long it existed (assuming there was such thing as time before it existed)? Who knows what set it off (assuming anything actually set it off)?

One thing is certain, the Universe when/before it started expanding was nothing like it is now. So to assume that the observations you make of the current Universe are relevant when/before it existed is bad reasoning.

[Deleted]

Love hate enjoyment etc feelings can be observed on other life forms not just on humans, my iguana for example takes great pride of stealing the cheddar on my hamburger,

but i still cant see a soul on anything

Your iguana is awesome. But aren't they lactose intolerant? =p

[Dendrek]

Does it matter what, "it" was before it started? You're exactly right, I am taking an unimaginably complicated event and boiling it down to that. It doesn't matter what things were like before, "it" was started because something would have had to create that too. The fine details are irrelevant unless they would somehow change the paradigm of our understanding of space and time.

That's just it. Space and time were not what they are now.

[Gamdwelf]

Your iguana is awesome. But aren't they lactose intolerant? =p

After cheese is made it has almost 0 lactose, that's why lactose intolerant people can many times eat cheese with no effects.

[Gheld]

I never said direct. The point is that it produces a measurable effect that can be objectively and independently measured. Neither of which applies to conventional definitions of a soul.



Who said it's random?

The laws of physics say that existence is probabilistic in nature. Which means that all things happen based on applying random chance to a probabilistic structure. For example, if I have a 30% chance of being behind you, and a 70% chance of being in front, randomly, 30% of the time, you will find me behind you.

Free will has no foundation within our current understanding of science.

Which is why as we understand things to be now, you either have to accept that our conscious awareness, and our free will, and all that jazz, is more than meets the eye, or that it simply doesn't exist, and that you and your precious free will are just a random series of chemical reactions.

[Deleted]

It is a persons belief, either way you can't prove or disprove that a soul exists...

Much like you can't disprove anything else that's made up from fantasy.
You should stop writing in a different than the default forum text, it's pretentious and annoying.