The "now everyone can see the content" argument

[Reufio]

Lfr exists for the same reason LFG exists, it has nothing to do with skill, its about convenience - log in at 4am, want to raid - search lfr, get a group , have fun.
you couldnt do that before

I look at LFR like this: Easy. I cleared it and knew it wasn't the "real" end game. So then I cleared it on normal on 3 or 4 characters and I felt better it was a legit kill. I killed it on normal prenerf (and I don't view that as an accomplishment because I know there is heroic). I cleared a couple hardmodes. It was fun but I am becoming an altaholic. I have cleared it on 3 and I have 5. I did a couple HMs on 1. Somewhere along the line I just get bored and want to learn a new class/spec. I don't view it as a progression issue. I use it as a stepping stone; and I still feel like I have not seen the full content because I am not 8/8 hc. I really have trouble understanding why people bitch. Who cares? I don't care if you beat God of War 3 at an easier setting when I beat it on the hardest difficulty. Its fun for me to gear new characters and see how good I can become and then I will go do normals and if I am doing well enough I will do hardmodes. Its progression from one to the other. I do not feel forced to do anything. LFR is fine and I do have fun; especially when I can top meters or handle tasks when I am far outgeared. Its just fun for me. People really need to leave LFR alone and let this argument die. Live and let live. If you really want to bitch about something, because most people whining about LFR always have something to bitch about, bitch about the unnecessary nerfing. Heroic should remain heroic. Leave LFR out of the argument. And hell no I don't want to put LFR on the same lockout at Normal/Heroic. On my main, I like to fill in gaps/gear up a new spec without having to hope the MT doesn't need that piece I would love for my OS.

Just saying. This shit is ridiculous. Someone else's fun shouldn't affect yours.

[Nerraw]

Again,it worked pretty well with classic World of Warcraft and The Burning Crusade. The best times of WoW.

In your opinion.

---------- Post added 2012-08-22 at 04:01 PM ----------

I believe i previously mentioned we raid with out the debuff quite a bit, but the option to leave it on is leading people to well, leave it on. On that note, i am not talking about the debuff available in ds, i am speaking on nerfs in general. Like heroic rag. The nerf shouldn't have taken place. That is just an example, any nerf of any cleared boss should not happen if the boss has been cleared by a guild that didn't use a bug, broken mechanic, or class stack. The debuff sucks imo but at least i have the option to raid with out it, i don't receive that treatment when a fight is nerfed.

I agree with you on the straight-up nerfs. I'd rather have the DS-style debuff.

---------- Post added 2012-08-22 at 04:03 PM ----------

Can't believe how ignorant some people are. Because you can't clear content before nerfs doesn't mean you want nerfs. Also playing 24/7 or 3 hours a week has nothing to with being a "high-end player" (whatever that means). A guild raiding only one evening a week might be better than Paragon that doesn't mean they want to finish the challenging mode Blizzard gave them after nerfs. EVEN if you suck balls that doesn't mean you WANT TO clear the content after nerfs.
I am really not going over turning off the buff again. It's a retarded option because no one would use it. And the only thing those achievements will do is guilds farming all the gear with buffs on and then turn it off to get that one achievement. Then they still miss out on the progression fun, it has to be forced because people always take the easiest way but that might not be the most fun way. Sometimes in a game like this you just have to force people to do something to make the game fun.

It's funny, now all of a sudden it is "plenty of guilds" but when you want the nerfs it is the "minority, 1% of all players".

What does it matter to you that some obscure guilds choose to leave the debuff on? How does it influence your gameplay? If you're doing it purely for your own challenge and entertainment, then it should matter what everyone else does.

[RickJamesLich]

I think WoW makes everything easier now so they can get more money, let's face it, people are more likely to pay if they obtain epics at a very easy pace and can beat the game within a few days of hitting 85. Obviously with the type of content out now, WoW is really moreso for new fans, and not really a game designed for the original fan base.

[Prag]

I think WoW makes everything easier now so they can get more money, let's face it, people are more likely to pay if they obtain epics at a very easy pace and can beat the game within a few days of hitting 85. Obviously with the type of content out now, WoW is really moreso for new fans, and not really a game designed for the original fan base.

Heroic Blackwing, Sinestra, Ragnaros and Spine would all like a word with you. So would the hardcore community that has stated how difficult they felt these bosses were.

[mosely]

Why weren't you complaining about normal modes when they were introduced?

Uh what?

Do you think that there were no complaints when WotLK Naxx was cleared by average guilds within the first week of release? That was the first taste of 'normal mode" content, and I can assure you it wasn't all positively received.

[Reufio]

Heroic Blackwing, Sinestra, Ragnaros and Spine would all like a word with you. So would the hardcore community that has stated how difficult they felt these bosses were.

But that wouldn't fit in with his argument if he mentioned those "faceroll" bosses.

[google1]

After reading the op again, i believe i completely misinterpreted the question. I am glad we talked though.

Back on topic, do i feel that lfr trivialises heroic raiding? I think it affects the race, which in turn affects the community. Alot of people do this and i don't think they may even necessarly realise they do it, but they live vicariously through the top end raiding guilds. So when a certain Asian guild runs 30 lfr the first week its out, then clears at a ridiculous rate, there will be an outrage of how easy everything is, mop sucks, and everyone should quit (all the while guilds like this compliment blizzard on a difficult tier).

Is there a solution? Longer progression imo. What will help this? Mop seems to have the right steps so far. Force dailies, drop tabards. Less availability of gear. One good thing would be sharing lfr lockouts. Picking to steamroll or progress won't be an issue for these guilds. Its all about world first. And it will help with the whiney dribble of being forced to lfr while slowing progression so people can't complain about raids being easy due to how fast these literal fanatics can clear.

[Succath]

didnt know the game blocked people from entering normal/heroic ;O

The game dont. People do.

you no have achievements gtfo
you no have good enough gear gtfo
You no have epic gems gtfo

and i can find a few more reasons why people are bitches to others.

[mosely]

What purpose do created content serve if people can't witness it?

Here's one possible answer:

If you can't experience the pinnacle endgame raid content, there is likely others like you who can't either. This creates niches for guilds to form to work their way up through the content and keeps earlier raid tiers relevant throughout the entire expansion. It is not currently possible to find a guild that is working on Firelands or the first Cata tier. With the current model, everyone is funneled into DS by design.

For a new player, 100% of raid content that is not Dragonsoul cannot be witnessed (in its intended form).

[Reufio]

The game dont. People do.

you no have achievements gtfo
you no have good enough gear gtfo
You no have epic gems gtfo

and i can find a few more reasons why people are bitches to others.

And because people are bitches about things like that when it is clearly nerfed content, you should make your own group. It's what I had to do on one of the servers where I have only alts. I made the group we cleared the instance and had fun. I felt a much higher sense of achievement in doing so. Was worth it, and no one could tell me I wasn't good enough. People are like this because they cannot handle any incidents happening in a raid. I once, when I still clicked all spells and did not have a clue how to play, ran an all night run through Naxx 10. I sucked and I knew it; but I played with friends who helped me learn and damn if we didn't kill KT. And guess what I got that tier 7.0 helm and Death's Bite. Some of the most fun I ever had. Yes, I am a wrath baby, and yea I was one of those Dks.

[Nerraw]

Here's one possible answer:

If you can't experience the pinnacle endgame raid content, there is likely others like you who can't either. This creates niches for guilds to form to work their way up through the content and keeps earlier raid tiers relevant throughout the entire expansion. It is not currently possible to find a guild that is working on Firelands or the first Cata tier. With the current model, everyone is funneled into DS by design.

For a new player, 100% of raid content that is not Dragonsoul cannot be witnessed (in its intended form).

They would be anyway, there's absolutely no incentive whatsoever to go back to the two previous tiers, LFR or not.

Besides, every tier in Mists will have the LFR. Everyone can experience all the content on Very Easy mode whenever they want.

---------- Post added 2012-08-22 at 04:43 PM ----------

And because people are bitches about things like that when it is clearly nerfed content, you should make your own group. It's what I had to do on one of the servers where I have only alts. I made the group we cleared the instance and had fun. I felt a much higher sense of achievement in doing so. Was worth it, and no one could tell me I wasn't good enough. People are like this because they cannot handle any incidents happening in a raid. I once, when I still clicked all spells and did not have a clue how to play, ran an all night run through Naxx 10. I sucked and I knew it; but I played with friends who helped me learn and damn if we didn't kill KT. And guess what I got that tier 7.0 helm and Death's Bite. Some of the most fun I ever had. Yes, I am a wrath baby, and yea I was one of those Dks.

Not everyone has leadership skills or is socially adept. There are a lot of quiet people who stick to doing what they have to do and only speak up when it's absolutely necessary. It'll never occur to them that they could start something on their own.

And in addition to that, not all servers are newbie-friendly. I've seen my fair share of trolling and ridiculing when newbies try to start a guild/run from scratch. They usually give up pretty fast when that happens.

[skitzin]

I honestly think people spend far too much time focused on what other people are doing, what they are getting and what content they are able to access. Just play the game and enjoy it after all thats what you are paying to do not whine about others, if you don't like LFR then don't do it.

[AiAtola]

In your opinion.

---------- Post added 2012-08-22 at 04:01 PM ----------



I agree with you on the straight-up nerfs. I'd rather have the DS-style debuff.

---------- Post added 2012-08-22 at 04:03 PM ----------



What does it matter to you that some obscure guilds choose to leave the debuff on? How does it influence your gameplay? If you're doing it purely for your own challenge and entertainment, then it should matter what everyone else does.

I think you are confused about the diference of a mmo-rpg game and a single player rpg. Everything anyone does in my realm matters, or even better, it used to matter, not anymore.

[Reufio]

Not everyone has leadership skills or is socially adept. There are a lot of quiet people who stick to doing what they have to do and only speak up when it's absolutely necessary. It'll never occur to them that they could start something on their own.

And in addition to that, not all servers are newbie-friendly. I've seen my fair share of trolling and ridiculing when newbies try to start a guild/run from scratch. They usually give up pretty fast when that happens.

I mean, that's kind of my point. I like LFR I like it being there and it gives those who lack social skills or are not on that type of server to do so. If they are bound and determined to go further, I guess I'm sorry. Having the drive and sometimes social capabilities is a part of competition and earning your keep. Do what you must. If you can't then I can't help you. LFR is there for a reason. If you want to do normals; meet the jerk's standards or make your own group. I don't think that there are really any other avenues nor do I think there should be created more avenues. We have had enough of a shitstorm from LFR being a new avenue and I'm a fan of it(LFR, not the shitstorm). I'm just not a fan of people complaining so much about an entity that helps OTHERS.

[DeadmanWalking]

They would be anyway, there's absolutely no incentive whatsoever to go back to the two previous tiers, LFR or not.

Besides, every tier in Mists will have the LFR. Everyone can experience all the content on Very Easy mode whenever they want.

---------- Post added 2012-08-22 at 04:43 PM ----------



Not everyone has leadership skills or is socially adept. There are a lot of quiet people who stick to doing what they have to do and only speak up when it's absolutely necessary. It'll never occur to them that they could start something on their own.

And in addition to that, not all servers are newbie-friendly. I've seen my fair share of trolling and ridiculing when newbies try to start a guild/run from scratch. They usually give up pretty fast when that happens.

There is also the fact that a lot of people don't realise there is room for improvements in their gameplay. When my raiding guild left to play swtor I joined an RL friends guild that talked a big deal about wanting to raid. Once I got in the guild I realised they had no clue how unprepared they were. They were doing 3k dps in Twillight hours and they should of been doing 10-12k bare minimum. For the most part their talents were off, had empty gem slots, and their rotations were way off. The trick is to convince someone to change their build without insulting them, and some people are really touchy. The majority of outside advice they had recieved from people who knew better was, "LoL DPS Fail! U Suck! Re-roll character!" followed by a boot. That in itself was a community fail.

I dusted the noob off of 12 people in the guild and put them on track to defeat normal raid Deathwing. It took a while but we did it. LFR was a tool I used to prepare them for heroic, gear was one thing but mostly so they knew the basic mechanics and to see how they followed directions. When I sit down with someone in my guild I take a lot of time to explain best practices, but if I am in a dungeon with a pug and I see someone who doesn't understand their class I suggest looking into Noxxic for a guide because I don't have the time to explain anything.

If the majority of players are not hardcore raiders its not because they are stupid, its because nobody takes the time to point them in the right direction. If the majority of players were hardcore raiders then Blizzard would create content mostly for hardcore raiders.

[Nerraw]

I think you are confused about the diference of a mmo-rpg game and a single player rpg. Everything anyone does in my realm matters, or even better, it used to matter, not anymore.

Why does it matter? Or in your opinion, why did it use to matter?

[AiAtola]

There is also the fact that a lot of people don't realise there is room for improvements in their gameplay. When my raiding guild left to play swtor I joined an RL friends guild that talked a big deal about wanting to raid. Once I got in the guild I realised they had no clue how unprepared they were. They were doing 3k dps in Twillight hours and they should of been doing 10-12k bare minimum. For the most part their talents were off, had empty gem slots, and their rotations were way off. The trick is to convince someone to change their build without insulting them, and some people are really touchy. The majority of outside advice they had recieved from people who knew better was, "LoL DPS Fail! U Suck! Re-roll character!" followed by a boot. That in itself was a community fail.

I dusted the noob off of 12 people in the guild and put them on track to defeat normal raid Deathwing. It took a while but we did it. LFR was a tool I used to prepare them for heroic, gear was one thing but mostly so they knew the basic mechanics and to see how they followed directions. When I sit down with someone in my guild I take a lot of time to explain best practices, but if I am in a dungeon with a pug and I see someone who doesn't understand their class I suggest looking into Noxxic for a guide because I don't have the time to explain anything.

If the majority of players are not hardcore raiders its not because they are stupid, its because nobody takes the time to point them in the right direction. If the majority of players were hardcore raiders then Blizzard would create content mostly for hardcore raiders.

Unfortunately the current version of WoW is balanced around this type of players, Blizzard amputates the game to suite them, theirs no need (reward/gear/path/journey) to improve when you can clear raids with less dps then TBC Sunwell.

[Nerraw]

There is also the fact that a lot of people don't realise there is room for improvements in their gameplay. When my raiding guild left to play swtor I joined an RL friends guild that talked a big deal about wanting to raid. Once I got in the guild I realised they had no clue how unprepared they were. They were doing 3k dps in Twillight hours and they should of been doing 10-12k bare minimum. For the most part their talents were off, had empty gem slots, and their rotations were way off. The trick is to convince someone to change their build without insulting them, and some people are really touchy. The majority of outside advice they had recieved from people who knew better was, "LoL DPS Fail! U Suck! Re-roll character!" followed by a boot. That in itself was a community fail.

I dusted the noob off of 12 people in the guild and put them on track to defeat normal raid Deathwing. It took a while but we did it. LFR was a tool I used to prepare them for heroic, gear was one thing but mostly so they knew the basic mechanics and to see how they followed directions. When I sit down with someone in my guild I take a lot of time to explain best practices, but if I am in a dungeon with a pug and I see someone who doesn't understand their class I suggest looking into Noxxic for a guide because I don't have the time to explain anything.

If the majority of players are not hardcore raiders its not because they are stupid, its because nobody takes the time to point them in the right direction. If the majority of players were hardcore raiders then Blizzard would create content mostly for hardcore raiders.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. The reason why there are so many unknowing people playing the game is because such a large portion of the well-versed players refuse to help them. The quality of the playerbase is what the playerbase has made itself. Blizzard merely responds to that with adding new features for those less-experienced players with things such as the LFR.

[AiAtola]

Why does it matter? Or in your opinion, why did it use to matter?

It matters since it's a mmo-rpg and not a single player game. If it doesn't matter, why are they in my game? What's the point of being a mmo-rpg if other players don't matter?

That type of games are called single player games.

[Nerraw]

Unfortunately the current version of WoW is balanced around this type of players, Blizzard amputates the game to suite them, theirs no need (reward/gear/path/journey) to improve when you can clear raids with less dps then TBC Sunwell.

People want to learn if they're made aware that there exists more to the game than they know. The problem is that the more egotistical part of the community refuses to provide that insight.