Guild Wars 2 & the MMORPG Genre

[Arrowstormen]

One problem is the sub fee, which kinda makes you need to play the game a good amount of time to justify the fact you pay each month to do it. Paying for two sub fees is like two games wanting your attention, and you will eventually have to pick the best, which usually ends up being WoW, because...

...of the second problem, which is how time consuming a MMO actually is, and that this time translates into a character you have worked on for DAYS of playtime (what, I have far over 100 days of playtime, that's crazy when you think about it), and picking up a new game is like discarding that character, and the friends you have in that game, since it's not always you can make all the people you have come to love over the years quit and join you in the new game.

It seems like the sub fee is going away by now, which is a good thing, but it still stands that MMOs are games that consumes a lot of time.

[Luko]

It's tell was "are you near me? Yea, you're f*ckin' dead"

I thought it sounded more like "Oh, you didn't roll ranger? HA, let me show you how dumb that makes you."

...of the second problem, which is how time consuming a MMO actually is, and that this time translates into a character you have worked on for DAYS of playtime (what, I have far over 100 days of playtime, that's crazy when you think about it), and picking up a new game is like discarding that character, and the friends you have in that game, since it's not always you can make all the people you have come to love over the years quit and join you in the new game.

100 days crazy? I don't wanna have this conversation anymore. =(

[DrakeWurrum]

It's tell was "are you near me? Yea, you're f*ckin' dead"

Well that's what I was thinking in BWE1. I didn't check it out later on when I figured out how to not die in melee, and after they'd retuned melee vs range in difficulty, so I didn't have a chance to check it out a second time.

I'm assuming it's one of those bosses where you're basically forced into range, but I wasn't sure because of other factors.

[zito]

I won't touch FF14, when they have to remake the entire thing then request a subscription after it originally failed.... no just no

[Luko]

I won't touch FF14, when they have to remake the entire thing then request a subscription after it originally failed.... no just no

If it's a fun videogame, I'll play it. There's not much more to it than that. People are walking around acting like the game pushed their cat under a truck. It's just a game. Currently, it sucks, so I don't play it. The new content, info and videos look great. If they remain as great when I get my hands on them, I'll play it.

Principle seems a little out of place here.

[zito]

If it's a fun videogame, I'll play it. There's not much more to it than that. People are walking around acting like the game pushed their cat under a truck. It's just a game. Currently, it sucks, so I don't play it. The new content, info and videos look great. If they remain as great when I get my hands on them, I'll play it.

Principle seems a little out of place here.

ummm they freaken pushed my cat under their truck!

[Luko]

ummm they freaken pushed my cat under their truck!

Oh, I had no idea. In that case, forget those cat pushing bastards! >: (

[DrakeWurrum]

I won't touch it if it has a sub, simply out of principle. Never again.

[Deleted]

But newcomers look at things objectively. People who are already hardcore raiders in WoW, generally speaking, are reluctant to try out a different game because they have a lot to lose by quitting WoW. Newcomers don't have anything to lose. Will they get kicked from their raiding guild if they spend a month playing a different game? No, cause they dont have a raiding guild.

Some people are scared to forfeit what they have for another game. For people who are experienced at the genre, getting into something that's different from what you know can be awkward and uncomfortable. More awkward and uncomfortable, in fact, than newcomers! When I first played GW1 the only MMO experience I had was a little bit of EQ and some WoW. I wasn't particularly good at either. I quit WoW just before BC (start of 2007) and played GW1 until just before wotlk was released. I rejoined WoW just before wotlk and I played until 4.2 in cata, when I went back to GW1 to try out hall of monuments.

It was HORRIBLE, the controls were so damn clunky, I couldn't do anything right, everything felt so crap and unresponsive, it was a nightmare. This game that I had no problem with before because I had no experience with MMOs was so easy to get into before. Now, coming from playing WoW again from 2008 to 2012, then going back to Guild Wars, I didn't even want to play 10 minutes of it, it was so difficult to get into. This is what I mean. People are so used to their game that they don't WANT to go to other games. New players turn up, they hear about a game, they play it, and they like it. They haven't developed a preference yet, so they're equally friendly with any controls.

Newcomers can be both experienced gamer or new gamer. You can't say that everyone looks at the game in an objective way, many players try MMO's with a bias of how bad the community might be. For example, my friend, recently picked up swotor after enough prodding, the man swore against all MMO's out there but got interested in the story and since it whent ftp, why not?
The first thing he told me after his first heroic quest, I will not group with anyone who I don't know personally. Yes, one bad experience ruined it for him, he hates how people act on MMO's, and we all know how it can be in general chat...


And well, from a personal level, I don't attach myself to my characters, while I played since vanilla I didn't have any problem leaving my characters behind while I play a different game for a while. Occasionally I go back to WoW yes but honestly since BC my raiding spirit whent downhill. Sooner or later we'll all leave our characters behind.


And honestly, the controls are rarely different, yes the universe is different, you have to learn things again because, yes, your a noob again. I believe its more people don't whant to be the noob, they know how their old game worked, don't understand the new one so it must suck.

One problem is the sub fee, which kinda makes you need to play the game a good amount of time to justify the fact you pay each month to do it. Paying for two sub fees is like two games wanting your attention, and you will eventually have to pick the best, which usually ends up being WoW, because...

...of the second problem, which is how time consuming a MMO actually is, and that this time translates into a character you have worked on for DAYS of playtime (what, I have far over 100 days of playtime, that's crazy when you think about it), and picking up a new game is like discarding that character, and the friends you have in that game, since it's not always you can make all the people you have come to love over the years quit and join you in the new game.

It seems like the sub fee is going away by now, which is a good thing, but it still stands that MMOs are games that consumes a lot of time.

I dissagree with you, the problem isn't the sub fee, the problem is the general chat of MMO's. The chances of getting shot down in general chat are higher then receiving actual usefull information. When I see people getting called a noob because they ask a question about the game it infuriates me. Also the general attitude of certain players is just repulsive.

You will always meet new people, its not like those people go away and if you befriended them I'm sure you can talk to them on facebook/msn/e-mail/phone.

And why would the sub fee go away? GW2? Because swotor still has a sub fee to access endgame content.

[Luko]

I won't touch it if it has a sub, simply out of principle. Never again.

Yes but you're Drake. You kind of have your own "unique" outlook on the world and especially videogames. Imagining something like personal principle has anything to do with playing a videogame is right up your alley.

No offense, probably.

[MKing]

SNIPE

But warhammer still has subs and is still profitable, that's not a failure. they made up all of their development costs and then some.

[vizzle]

I am honestly so tired of seeing these posts like the OP that makes GW2 seem like a god send. Seriously, the game won't be this amazing self-fulfilled prophecy that will revolutionize the gaming industry. Stop overhyping it for yourselves like children or else you'll all be disappointed.

New trends form, industries shift. The MMORPG is hardly a dying genre. If it wasn't GW2 trying something new, it would've been something else. The next game will be even "more" something else, and so on and so on.

[Luko]

I am honestly so tired of seeing these posts like the OP that makes GW2 seem like a god send. Seriously, the game won't be this amazing self-fulfilled prophecy that will revolutionize the gaming industry. Stop overhyping it for yourselves like children or else you'll all be disappointed.

Fortunately in a couple of months, when 70% of the starting playerbase has moved on, the ones who simply enjoy the game for what it is will be left and the hype monsters will have moved on.

We've only got to worry about these MMO-messiah posts for another couple of weeks.

[Lane]

As successful as GW2 can become as of late seeing all these other failures with the exception of Rift I can't get the overwhelming feeling that WoW has grown too large.

WoW is too large for the market and as WoW declines so does the players.

One problem is the sub fee, which kinda makes you need to play the game a good amount of time to justify the fact you pay each month to do it. Paying for two sub fees is like two games wanting your attention, and you will eventually have to pick the best, which usually ends up being WoW, because...

I agree with Arrowstorm. It's not that WoW is too big, it's simply that all things considered it's the best (even after Cataclysm :P). Once I lost interest in Tera I looked around and I realized that the only other (relatively new) game I see in the MMO genre even attempting to be competitive is Rift. It seems like almost every other MMO I see launched is incomplete, half-assed, or otherwise hoping its player base will have the patience for them to get their act together. Not that many people are willing to pay while waiting for a company/developers to play catch-up, which is evidenced by these games bleeding out players past the first "free" month of play.

As far as the genre moving forward, there are a multitude of problems, IMO. I've seen very little innovation in the past 8 or so years. MMOs that have come out in the past 2 years still use vanilla WoW's questing system. (I mean, for gods' sake, at least borrow from Wrath if nothing else. :P) When there is any innovation it seems to be one spectacular feature amidst the same ol' same ol', such as Tera's amazing combat while providing a circa 2004 questing experience and virtually no other content. Even Rift in the beginning was really only unique due to its rift events (and soul system). The questing was reminiscent of vanilla WoW, but they've since added a LOT and quickly that easily puts Rift as the second best MMO currently on the market (IMO).

How many times have you seen someone say something like, "I wish there were an MMO with WoW's lore, Rift's content updates, Tera's combat," etc.? I've seen those statements a lot, but seemingly no company thus far has managed to merge all the best parts of the other MMOs together. Fewer still seem to be willing to think outside of the box or at least they're not willing to risk trying something new, something that seems to be occurring in all aspects of the gaming industry.

I also think too many people want different things. I'm tired of seeing pre-WoW MMO players constantly bashing WoW for ruining the genre. I don't think WoW ruined the genre at all, I think they tapped into an obviously sizable market of players who didn't consider grinding their faces off for months to accomplish little things to be fun. The problem is you have these two polar opposite mentalities converging in any given MMO and developers try to walk a fine line attempting to accommodate both while rarely making either one happy. So, again, you end up with people jumping ship for the next thing that will hopefully be their cup of tea. I know I am guilty of this. I thought WoW had reached its pinnacle of excellence with Wrath only for them to do a complete about face in Cataclysm, which ultimately lost me as a customer. I've been bouncing around other MMOs ever since, never finding the perfect balance I felt existed in Wrath.

[DrakeWurrum]

I am honestly so tired of seeing these posts like the OP that makes GW2 seem like a god send. Seriously, the game won't be this amazing self-fulfilled prophecy that will revolutionize the gaming industry. Stop overhyping it for yourselves like children or else you'll all be disappointed.

New trends form, industries shift. The MMORPG is hardly a dying genre. If it wasn't GW2 trying something new, it would've been something else. The next game will be even "more" something else, and so on and so on.

You are aware, reading the OP, he is not insinuating that GW2 is some prophet that will revolutionize the gaming industry. He's merely hoping that GW2 can help bring about some changes to the industry that are so needed, especially in regards to community.

Simply hoping that, for once, there can be more than an MMORPG can just persist alongside WoW without being in it's shadow and only it's shadow.

That's not being a prophet, that's simply the hope that WoW finally gets a proper competitor. I'm personally tired of WoW being the only thing people can think of when it comes to online gaming.

[Zipzo]

I am honestly so tired of seeing these posts like the OP that makes GW2 seem like a god send. Seriously, the game won't be this amazing self-fulfilled prophecy that will revolutionize the gaming industry. Stop overhyping it for yourselves like children or else you'll all be disappointed.

New trends form, industries shift. The MMORPG is hardly a dying genre. If it wasn't GW2 trying something new, it would've been something else. The next game will be even "more" something else, and so on and so on.

If you would take the time to read my OP carefully, you'd see that isn't at all close to what I said.

I simply asked a question.

My personal opinion on what GW2 is going to do post release? Well, to be honest it isn't what most GW2 players who think it's the "WoW killer" believe it to be. That's not really relevant to the discussion though.

My view is that the developers are seemingly valuing structured PvP and class balance in a way that hasn't been really been seen since the Mythic developers were putting on the big talk for Warhammer, so even though there are a few things about GW2 that are turn-offish to me like the art style, character movement, and medieval fantasy setting (all purely preferential concepts), I'm willing to see it through because I care about the competition. Looking back on GW1 there is clearly a track record of a consistent competitive PvP environment in Guild Wars, and I'm hoping to be apart of that vision should it come to fruition in GW2.

I am absolutely not putting it on a pedestal, nor will I ever concede to believing it's going to be the second coming, because first of all, I don't even believe such a thing can and should exist, because I believe more than 1 active, popular MMORPG should exist for the good of the genre, and two...because I'm not a sensationalist.

[Shostie]

If it's a fun videogame, I'll play it. There's not much more to it than that. People are walking around acting like the game pushed their cat under a truck. It's just a game. Currently, it sucks, so I don't play it. The new content, info and videos look great. If they remain as great when I get my hands on them, I'll play it.

Principle seems a little out of place here.

Condescending rubbish, "principles" (ethics) are never out of place.

[Fencers]

Alright. Now you guys are teetering on the edge of making this a game vs. game debate.

Yea, so. Like don't do that.

This is me warning you guys not to go down that path of temptation.

-- Fencers [index finger hovering over the close button]

[Zipzo]

Alright. Now you guys are teetering on the edge of making this a game vs. game debate.

Yea, so. Like don't do that.

This is me warning you guys not to go down that path of temptation.

-- Fencers [index finger hovering over the close button]

Chill off the trigger finger friend, there has been zero flaming going on so far and most all posts have been reasonable, personal opinions aside. Game VS game is not the aim of the topic, but comparisons are going to happen. It's a small fundamental element of any MMORPG conversation, and as long as it doesn't become aggressive and personal, there's no logical reason you should need to moderate anything.

[vilereaver41]

Before I begin, I want to say that this is absolutely not aiming to be a game vs game thread. I have a question, presented with a little bit of insight of my own, and would like to see how others feel about it. I absolutely do not condone bashing World of Warcraft (or any other comparable MMO) or Guild Wars 2 in an effort to prove any point you intend to make. If you would like to make comparisons, that's fine but do so in a fair way - not an inflammatory one. I want to talk about what kind of effect you believe GW2 will have on this dying genre, honestly.

The MMORPG has seen much decline lately in terms of fresh appeal. Most feel it's fair to say that there isn't anything "new" that we could be surprised with in this current generation, that we've seen it all, therefore all of the major MMORPG's released in the past 5-7 years or so, dressing to impress, have fallen short on their hype because how many new experiences are there really for developers to try without potentially wasting a ton of money.

Guild Wars 2 is coming during a very hostile period in the MMORPG genre's lifespan, a time where a large majority of players rooted in that genre are hyper critical, jaded, or downright angry. Gone are the days where we appreciate the charm and chipper qualities of a new MMORPG, where instead it is compared to an MMORPG of the past that may have done it better. I suppose it's not totally unfair to say such things, but the way in which we do it has led to an outbreak of community blandness, because no longer can we talk about what makes a game good, and what makes a game bad in a way that is objective. People are passionate about the game they play now, so it's almost a personal insult to said group of people to hear even the utterance that their game is inferior in some way to another.

Do you think GW2 will rise above this petty MMORPG war that has been raging constantly ever since World of Warcraft latched on to the dominant spot on top of its mountain throne? Do you believe GW2 provides an experience that, although of course has many familiar features, has enough freshness that it can actually launch and persist along side World of Warcraft without it being considered a "failure"? Now, for context, I don't think Aion failed. I don't think Rift failed. I think Warhammer, AoC, and SWTOR for all intents and purposes have failed in the developers vision of what they wished/thought it would be, but by definition they didn't *fail* either. Failed to live up to the hype, sure. Fail is a really packed word...which deserves unpacking each time you choose to use it so frivolously in regards to an MMORPG.

One single game considered "the" MMORPG to play is what is killing the genre.

In any case...the MMORPG is a dying breed, and it needs saving. Guild Wars 2 is incapable of doing that alone, but will it be a step in the right direction towards genre diversity? Obviously the game hasn't released yet, so most all of this will be conjecture but isn't that what forums are for? Let's have a real discussion here...what kind of kick-start do you think the MMORPG genre needs to put it back on the rise? Where do you think the genre will be in 10 years? This is a genre I love, and it makes me sad to see it in its current state.

Thanks for reading, and like I said up top, keep it clean, objective, and make your points in a way that isn't insulting or inflammatory, and we'll be fine.

not sure if someone answered because i couldnt be bothered reading the other posts and pages ;p

but MMORPG'S are only dying because they have been trying to assimalate some world of warcraft into there features or in SWTOR case all of world of warcraft but futureise it. that is the big "NO" of mmorpg's wow is unique in its own way you cant add that uniqueness to your own mmo that has a diffrent uniqueness i mean a wrong and a right in the end its not a right anymore but the wrong overpowers it as u can see from the failures.

ok now GW2 is the only mmo i have seen these past years that a major lot of effort has been put into i really really dont see how it is going to fail i mean the beta has nothing but good reviews the devs listen and interact with players if i report a bug one day the next day it could be fixed thats the response u get when playing gw2 a nice safe comfortable game. i mean sure in the beta i was a little bored because of wvwvw no one played much but i know on the 25th august that is when gw2 comes alive and shines as a hope for mmorpg people might say gw2 will kill wow or whatever. wow is a king in its own side genre with a throne but gw2 will be a king of a diffrent side genre for mmorpg nothing will kill wow infact its slowly dying anyway things need to take its course. gw2 has allready been guarenteed 5-6 million players from gw1

sorry on the grammar its not my best card in the morning ~,~