Lance Armstrong not defending in court

[Masqerader]

I think that's a little extreme perhaps?

The question I'd like answered is if Armstrong and his team ran and I quote, " the most sophisticated, professional and successful doping programme that sport has ever seen", then how on earth did the USADA and UCI allow it happen right under their noses for so long? They need to take a good hard long look at themselves over this.

because they didn't care till Balco came to light?

[Revik]

I think that's a little extreme perhaps?

The question I'd like answered is if Armstrong and his team ran and I quote, " the most sophisticated, professional and successful doping programme that sport has ever seen", then how on earth did the USADA and UCI allow it happen right under their noses for so long? They need to take a good hard long look at themselves over this.

Well first off USADA didn't even exist during this time so that answers that question.

But to answer your question does it really matter? Either the UCI organization was completely oblivious showing a level of incompetence to oversee their own sport or they knew about and allowed it to happen to further the exposure of the sport. Both possible outcomes are bad which leads me to my ultimate conclusion of the dissolution of the UCI in general.

Cycling has in general been tainted and needs to be dissolved for a number of years so people can forget about everything that has happened. Only then can cycling come back pristine and its legitimacy intact once more.

IMO Lance is still a great man having overcome the odds. It is clear that all the top people were cheating also putting his cheating on even footing with the rest. Meaning his victories were actual victories. The fact that there are "no winners" during that time period proves this statement.

[igame]

We all know how Armstrong slapped millions in the face year after year. I personally know a few of people who used to think he was a hero and a role model.
He made millions of endorsements and books and royalties which were all based on lies.
Even though he has been stripped off his titles, he still walks out of this whole thing with millions to his name which he does not deserve.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/20008520


Do you think such people should face trial for fraud?

I know it's not as bad as murder but it is a fraud. A very elaborate fraud. Worse off what armstrong has done is besmirch the sport. If ever another sportsman fights adversity/disease etc to get to the top, people will wonder what horse hormones the athlete might have been using.
Sports are a billion dollar industry and in dire need of strict penalties for doping including confiscating all money made off the sport be it books, sponsorships or anything else.

[Spectral]

No, I think the whole thing is amazingly stupid. He broke a rule in a sport (allegedly), which was a deliberately fuzzy rule that essentially every other top end athlete in the same sport was breaking. Singling him out because he was the best is absolutely absurd.

Rather than trying to chase down something that can't be solved (doping) and trying to draw completely arbitrary lines as to what's against the rules and what's fine, I'd rather just see athletes allowed to put into their bodies whatever they choose.

[Decagon]

While I personally don't believe doping to be bad (it's their choice, it doesn't affect me in the slightest) he did make a massive amount of money from cheating, and should be tried for it, though I don't think that he should actually be found guilty, just have it as a sort of a show. Just because all the other athletes dope doesn't mean that we should allow it while it's still against the rules, perhaps a trial, whether or not he is found guilty will deter other athletes from doping.

IMO though, a better option would just to allow doping.

[fizzbob]

No, I think the whole thing is amazingly stupid. He broke a rule in a sport (allegedly), which was a deliberately fuzzy rule that essentially every other top end athlete in the same sport was breaking. Singling him out because he was the best is absolutely absurd.

Rather than trying to chase down something that can't be solved (doping) and trying to draw completely arbitrary lines as to what's against the rules and what's fine, I'd rather just see athletes allowed to put into their bodies whatever they choose.

lol, he is way past "allegedly"

he bribed drug testing facilities with HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, USADA has enough evidence that WADA and the tour de france are stripping his wins, he has 20+ people who will testify they saw/heard him dope and he was the best cyclist around when EVERYONE else was doping too

of course he cheated

barry bonds is the best baseball player ever IMO, he even beat his charges, but of course he was using roids, when all the competition is doing it, you do it too or you're not part of the elite anymore. talent can only take you so far. it takes hard work and knowing how to cheat the system to be the best

look at wow pvp. ever elite player cheats in some way. win trading, queue dodging, DDoS attacks in RBGs, etc

but yeah, they're good too, the only thing is if they're gonna be other good players who cheat, they have to cheat too

this isn't a disney movie, everyone at the top cheated to get there and it starts in sports in the early teens. i played 4 sports, we had a lot who used steroids even then

---------- Post added 2012-10-22 at 05:50 PM ----------

While I personally don't believe doping to be bad (it's their choice, it doesn't affect me in the slightest) he did make a massive amount of money from cheating, and should be tried for it, though I don't think that he should actually be found guilty, just have it as a sort of a show. Just because all the other athletes dope doesn't mean that we should allow it while it's still against the rules, perhaps a trial, whether or not he is found guilty will deter other athletes from doping.

IMO though, a better option would just to allow doping.

no we don't need a trial, the US Government just spent $50,000,000 going after barry bonds (tax payers paid for it) and they didn't get him. it did no good, it even turned some people against the government and he hurt nobody (but, but, it was perjury) it was fucking stupid from start to finish, they lost, we paid for it

fuck trials, let it go

[Auloria]

We all know how Armstrong slapped millions in the face year after year. I personally know a few of people who used to think he was a hero and a role model.
He made millions of endorsements and books and royalties which were all based on lies.
Even though he has been stripped off his titles, he still walks out of this whole thing with millions to his name which he does not deserve.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/20008520


Do you think such people should face trial for fraud?

I know it's not as bad as murder but it is a fraud. A very elaborate fraud. Worse off what armstrong has done is besmirch the sport. If ever another sportsman fights adversity/disease etc to get to the top, people will wonder what horse hormones the athlete might have been using.
Sports are a billion dollar industry and in dire need of strict penalties for doping including confiscating all money made off the sport be it books, sponsorships or anything else.

Well, I don't agree that he doesn't deserve his millions. He was paid to market a product, and he did. The companies who endorsed him got what they paid for.

[Deleted]

No, I think the whole thing is amazingly stupid. He broke a rule in a sport (allegedly), which was a deliberately fuzzy rule that essentially every other top end athlete in the same sport was breaking. Singling him out because he was the best is absolutely absurd.

Rather than trying to chase down something that can't be solved (doping) and trying to draw completely arbitrary lines as to what's against the rules and what's fine, I'd rather just see athletes allowed to put into their bodies whatever they choose.

He's not being singled out, this is just his turn to face the music. All the other big names have already been caught, Contador, Ullrich, Landis. I'm not sure how the rule is "fuzzy", I think "Don't take EPO" is pretty clear. I also disagree with the suggestion doping cannot be solved. We've just had (hopefully) the cleanest Olympics ever. Progress is being made in the fight against these cheats.

[Bolson13]

He's not being singled out, this is just his turn to face the music. All the other big names have already been caught, Contador, Ullrich, Landis. I'm not sure how the rule is "fuzzy", I think "Don't take EPO" is pretty clear. I also disagree with the suggestion doping cannot be solved. We've just had (hopefully) the cleanest Olympics ever. Progress is being made in the fight against these cheats.

In all fairness, it can be a little fuzzy. Too high hematocrite (or whatever the English spelling is) value for instance. A value that you can have changed if you naturally have a high hematocrite value (so basically a person who is "doped" at all times). So there are riders in the peloton who have a higher value then what others get banned for. You can also have it changed if you take special medication by the way. So basically, if you pay a doctor enough money to bribe him, you can get away with it.
And the effect is the same as training on high altitude. So if you stay in a high place for too long (say a holiday), your hematocrite value will be too far away from your normal value as well.
And in some sports it is not even forbidden but in Cycling, staying in high places in the world can get you busted for using EPO. Especially since EPO is hard to catch with blood transfusions these days. Too bad though that cyclists tend to train in places where there are a lot of mountains. So basically they are under supervision of doctors every single day + that they can have doping testers come by at any time.



And Contador got banned with a rediculously low value of clenbuterol in his body. It was also a little fuzzy since this value could easily have been from meat. I remember they even could tell the food that the cow might have eaten could in fact have this effect on the meat. If the value is that close, that you need to watch your food every single day which is impossible. The system went too far imo.

The system still got a lot of gaping holes in it.

[Bakis]

He blows, everyone knew he was cheating except the diehard blind fans.

[Palmatum]

That's nice. The piece of trash had his titles removed and he's being forced to pay back what he gained from his 'success'.

[conscript]

Love the people that are calling Lance a cheater. He is. So is everyone else in cycling. The 7 tour titles they stripped from him they literally can't give to any other top finsher. Of the 21 top three finishes in those races, the cyclist who finished in those spots has been linked to drug use in 20 of 21 cases. Cycling is the dirtiest sport on the planet. When all of your top cyclists are linked to drug usage year after year after year it is disingenuous to try and villainize one guy when you have a systemic issue. Lance deserved to lose his titles. No one deserves to win them in that joke a sport.

[Rukentuts]

Love the people that are calling Lance a cheater. He is. So is everyone else in cycling. The 7 tour titles they stripped from him they literally can't give to any other top finsher. Of the 21 top three finishes in those races, the cyclist who finished in those spots has been linked to drug use in 20 of 21 cases. Cycling is the dirtiest sport on the planet. When all of your top cyclists are linked to drug usage year after year after year it is disingenuous to try and villainize one guy when you have a systemic issue. Lance deserved to lose his titles. No one deserves to win them in that joke a sport.

Indeed. They should have just let him keep them because he won when cheating was par for the course.

[Deleted]

When all of your top cyclists are linked to drug usage year after year after year it is disingenuous to try and villainize one guy when you have a systemic issue.

You just said that 20 of the 21 placed athletes were found guilty. How exactly then are they making Armstrong the villain? How can that possibly be the case if they've found all those other guys guilty of doping? This is just Armstrong's turn to face the music, and naturally the repercussions are bigger because he is the highest profile guy to be caught.

Indeed. They should have just let him keep them because he won when cheating was par for the course.

Or they could just do what they have done, and vacated the titles because no matter how many people were doing it, it was still wrong. I believe that Bradley Wiggins is clean. I believe that the sport as a whole is becoming clean. That wouldn't happen if somebody didn't decide to go after those who were cheating. By stripping Armstrong the UCI will hope to close one of the darkest chapters in the history of any sport.

[Rukentuts]

Or they could just do what they have done, and vacated the titles because no matter how many people were doing it, it was still wrong. I believe that Bradley Wiggins is clean. I believe that the sport as a whole is becoming clean. That wouldn't happen if somebody didn't decide to go after those who were cheating. By stripping Armstrong the UCI will hope to close one of the darkest chapters in the history of any sport.

Well technically it's not over. I will be very disappointed if they declare the runners-up the winners. Because (for one example) Jan Ulrich was the runner-up in one, and he has a known history of doping.

[ultimar235]

That's nice. The piece of trash had his titles removed and he's being forced to pay back what he gained from his 'success'.

A man who survived cancer, inspired many cancer survivors and raised tonnes of cash for charity = trash?

Take his titles and cash if that makes cycling people happy but to brand him as trash and disregard his achievements outside of cycling is shameful.

[Bolson13]

Well technically it's not over. I will be very disappointed if they declare the runners-up the winners. Because (for one example) Jan Ulrich was the runner-up in one, and he has a known history of doping.

I believe it is already announced that nobody will receive the vacant titles.

In Belgium press (I am Dutch, not Belgian though so not 100% clear on the story) they checked the results of the 2001 tour I think. A Belgian cyclist ended as 12th and Lance was the only one still left with a clean record in front of that Belgian cyclist.

It would be a little rediculous to give the number 12 the title. I bet the number 13 would have worked harder if he knew he actually still had a chance to win .

[fizzbob]

i didn't see you people defending barry bonds when the US Government went after him 10 years ago

you must not have known he gave more to charity than anyone in the USA not named Oprah Winfrey from 1993-2000

or maybe it's because he's black. they're both assholes so don't say that's it, lance armstrong is a lying dickhead. most elite athletes are. MJ was, brett favre was, etc

---------- Post added 2012-10-25 at 05:12 AM ----------

A man who survived cancer, inspired many cancer survivors and raised tonnes of cash for charity = trash?

Take his titles and cash if that makes cycling people happy but to brand him as trash and disregard his achievements outside of cycling is shameful.

yeah, he lied about everythign else but not where the money in his organization was going

charities are dirty as shit, even red cross got busted funneling out TENS OF MILLIONS of dollars during hurricane katrina. the only one i'd donate to is st. jude's children's hospital because they've been around since the time when charities were actually charitable, they're pretty clean from everything i've read and they do what they say they are.

nowadays, they're NOT FOR PROFIT which means the restrictions are very lax

[Rukentuts]

I believe it is already announced that nobody will receive the vacant titles.

Hm, well if that's true I apologize I didn't hear that.

[Bakis]

I believe it is already announced that nobody will receive the vacant titles.

Good, it is not a sport, noone deserve any title. It is a "sport" made up on a starting field of only Ben Johnson's.
Wish they deleted the shitty sport from the olympics and they can have their little drug gathering in Tour de France only.