[MoP] Warlock CC and survivability

[Slyver]

Here's a short analysis of Phoenexis' list. I will do a comparison, based on the talents and glyphs I would take for arena, of the effectiveness of all the abilities by category, based on how often they can be used, and their efficacy when cast.

CC:

Full Single Target CC

Frost Jaw (or RoF), Deep Freeze, Combustion, Poly >
Fear ~
Cyclone (lasts 6s btw, or 8s if cast instantly), Pounce
Hex, Capacitor Totem >
Psychic Horror*

*Psychic Horror lasts up to 4s, but in truth is a horrid mechanic, and the only thing I really hate about Spriests, though it does have the potential to be very powerful (rarely).

Result: Mage > Warlock = Druid > Shaman > Spriest


AOE CC

Psyfiend*, Psychic Horror >
Thunderstorm** >
Dragon’s Breath ~
Typhoon >
Shadowfury***

*Or Void Tendrils, which is a really nice spell since Psyfiend clashes with Psychic Scream, especially if you have a warlock in the group
** Probably the best CC/Gap opener/Survival CD (can be used while stunned) spell in the game. This is less than the priest comparative only because the priest has two of them on a 30s CD, vs 23s (not 45s) for Thunderstorm.
*** Shadowfury is less than DB and Typhoon only because its CD is 50% longer.

Result: Spriest > Shaman > Mage = Druid > Warlock


Silence/Interrupt

Solar Beam* >
Counterspell >
Spell Lock ~ Axe Toss** ~
Silence >
Wind Sheer

*Solar Beam when glyphed is the most powerful healer (or any spellcaster, or even some melee) lockdown in the game. When used in conjunction with their amazing movement control spells (Entangling Root, Typhoon (or God forbid, Mass Entanglement), Ursol’s Vortex, Nature’s Swiftness, Nature’s Grasp), this spell can lock someone down easily for 15 seconds. It’s a game winner. In fact, I think it’s broken (with glyph).
**Axe Toss lasts 4s (not 5s) and is spec specific, so I clumped it here, because you can’t have both, and will most certainly have Spell Lock in arena in the current state of warlocks.

Result: Druid >> Mage > Warlock > Spriest > Shaman


Gap-Openers

Snare

Wild Mushroom, Typhoon ~
Cone of Cold, Frost Armor, Snare on main spell >
Earthbind Totem, Frost Shock ~
Mind Flay >>
Warlock spec specific snares

Result: Druid = Mage > Shaman = Spriest >> Warlock


Roots

Entangling Roots, Nature’s Grasp >
Frozen Power >
Frost Nova >
Void Tendrils* >>
No warlock root

*This low only because it was already mentioned under CC category (Psyfiend)

Result: Druid > Shaman > Mage > Spriest >> (or =) Warlock


Movement Ability/Speed Increase

Shapeshifting, Dash, Travel Form, Wild Charge (or Displacer Beast), Stampeding Roar >
Blink, Mirror Images, Scorch* ~
Ghost Wolf, Spirit Walkers Grace >
Body and Soul, Inner Will, Dispersion >
Demonic Circle**, KjC***, Burning Rush***

Result: Druid > Mage = Shaman > Spriest > Warlock

*Included here because it makes you never have to stop moving to do a little less than full damage
** Demonic Circle might have moved warlock up on this list, if the CD wasn’t so much longer than all other casters similar abilities, or if the warlock had more than one ability…
***Almost certainly not taken in their current form.


Survivability

Passive

Shadowform ~
Moonkin Form ~
Mail Armor + Shield, Nature’s Guardian >
Mage Armor ~
Fel Armor

*For a warlock that sits in DA form all the time, this moves up to the top. This will likely never happen in arena

Results: Spriest = Druid = Shaman > Mage = Warlock


Healing

FDCL, Spectral Guise, Cascade (et al), Flash Heal, Glyph of Dark Binding, Devouring Plague, Renew, Prayer of Mending, Power Word: Shield >
Healing Touch, Rejuv, Nature’s Swiftness, Dream of Cenarius (or Heart of the Wild), Glyph of the Moonbeast ~
Healing Surge, Healing Totem, Healing Rain >
Glyph of Evocation, Ice Barrier >>
Drain Life, Twilight Ward*

*For Destro, this becomes about equal to mage (if you give up the capacity to do burst).

Results: Spriest > Druid = Shaman > Mage >> Warlock


Utility

Mass Dispell >
Cleanse Spirit, Earth Shock, Purge >>
CoE >
Remove Curse >
No Druid Spells

Results: Spriest > Shaman >> Warlock > Mage > Druid


Active Survival CDs

Cold Snap, Ice Block, Evocation Glyph, Invisibility, Alter Time >
Barkskin (glyphed), Tranq, HotW, Renewal, Frienzied Regen ~
Dark Bargain, Unending Resolve, Healthstone (glyphed) + Dark Regen ~
Dispersion, Void Shift, Vampiric Embrace ~
Tremor Totem, Healing Tide Totem

This category was a little more difficult for me to quantify, and I may change it at some point. The one thing that stands out, is how powerful Ice Block + Cold Snap is. I haven’t really used Alter Time much, so my opinion on that might change, but at the moment, it’s only mildly useful as a defensive CD. With more practice, it might become my most powerful Def. CD. Nevertheless, mages are on top of this one (in my short assessment), but its close between them all.

Results: Mage > Druid = Warlock = Spriest = Shaman

----


Perhaps a little later I will do numerical analysis on the cooldown timers of abilities vs. the number of CDs, i.e. what the probable maximum time is that a spec will have nothing it can do to survive, because this is one of the biggest problems I have playing a warlock compared to druid, mage, spriest or hunter.

---------- Post added 2012-09-17 at 01:09 PM ----------

It's good to hear from people who disagree. I highly encourage people who want to make assertions that locks are fine too.

He obviously doesn't play a warlock. IF (big if) he is not a troll, he is a very bad mage who has only ever fought a warlock in duels when they have all of their CDs up, and doesn't yet know how to deal with them. His assessments are not overly constructive, and are very fact light, while being opinion heavy. They do sound to me exactly like what I just said. A mage who has not learned how to deal with warlock CDs in duels (i.e. spec greater invis...).

Keep in mind, Pheonix, that chart is very useful, but it needs to take into consideration the POWER of each ability as well.

Evocation and Ice Block serve as powerful survival abilities, but you *cannot act offensively* while using those abilities. Warlocks don't have any buttons like that.

Being able to act offensively is so minor most of the time. Duels are not won when you are under substantial melee fire for the most part. Ice Block (x2) serve to eliminate you as a desirable target (unless you are a warrior, once per arena). I have said this before, but I can not stress enough the efficacy of a defensive CD for a caster that makes people not want to attack you.

Being able to live (most likely CC'ed the entire time) is powerful, but the chance to cast during that time is not as powerful as you might think in practice. If it provided immunity to CC (like bubble) then it would be very powerful, but a simple sheep/fear/silence/cyclone/etc, ad naseum is sufficient to cancel out that part of its effectiveness.

Believe me, when I see the very visible DB go up, its either ignore it, and keep blasting away, because, why not? It will make the warlock much easier to kill in 8 seconds, or, I can just sheep the lock and be on my way.

My perspective is I have played both 2200+, as well as substantial beta play time on both, so mage/warlock comparisons are very easy for me. DB's ability to live for a while while casting is nice, but I used to be able to do that 100% of the time prior to MoP, with my passive 20% DR and substantially more healing. DB allows me to do it for 8s out of every 180s, and makes me easier to kill right after.

Sorry, but no, no comparison in actual game play.


Nevertheless, I do a comparative analysis of each category and rank the classes, as you suggested (though before your suggestion, even though it appears after your post )


Edit: I would like to note: if say, a destro warlock had sufficient survivability to build up 4 embers and popped UR and DB together along with Dark Soul (+ Havoc), it could be extremely powerful; almost a guaranteed kill if no LoS or sheep, etc. is available (both unlikely, but possible if timed properly). It is God Mode for 8 seconds out of every 3 mins, but the ability to get there does not exist, so it's a hypothetical not worth worrying about. Not to say it could never happen, but I doubt the likelihood of someone being able to pull it out often enough to make it into the bracket I will be playing in, so I am not overly concerned.

[Phoenexis]

It's good to hear from people who disagree. I highly encourage people who want to make assertions that locks are fine too.

---------- Post added 2012-09-17 at 12:48 PM ----------

Keep in mind, Pheonix, that chart is very useful, but it needs to take into consideration the POWER of each ability as well.

Evocation and Ice Block serve as powerful survival abilities, but you *cannot act offensively* while using those abilities. Warlocks don't have any buttons like that.

First of all thanks for reading the list. I put it up as a referral for posters to use so that we could start talking about each ability's power.
The problem is Xelnath, that defensive abilities that allow you to play offensively are rarely used that way. When I'm getting bursted by a ret/dk/priest, I'm not going to be in a situation where I'm going to wait to attack them, I'm going to try to turtle as much as possible in order to avoid their burst, then start pummeling them. Therefore, abilities such as Dark Bargain really only fill their true potential in 1v1 situations. Any opposing team that would decide to go full offensive while they're in a pickle is really bad or really desperate, and it rarely happens.

---------- Post added 2012-09-17 at 08:16 PM ----------

To Slyver:
Thanks a bunch for the analysis, I didn't have much time to do something of the sort. Looking forward to discussing the utility of each spell. As for Alter Time, I personally think that it's one of the most powerful abilities in the game, that gives mages a lot of flexibility in their gameplay.
Also, you're one of the few posters that haven't gutted my name while writing it, kudos to you : o

[wholol]

you're one of the few posters that haven't gutted my name while writing it

haha + rep

[Xelnath]

First of all thanks for reading the list. I put it up as a referral for posters to use so that we could start talking about each ability's power.
The problem is Xelnath, that defensive abilities that allow you to play offensively are rarely used that way.

I don't buy that. There was a massive problem with Divine Shield when you could do full damage while completely immune. Death Knights and Anti-Magic Shield are another great example of unstoppable, frustrating offensive power on a defensive cooldown.

[Hellfury]

Rogues and our beloved Cloak of Shadows

[scmpoe]

The problem is Xelnath, that defensive abilities that allow you to play offensively are rarely used that way. When I'm getting bursted by a ret/dk/priest, I'm not going to be in a situation where I'm going to wait to attack them, I'm going to try to turtle as much as possible in order to avoid their burst, then start pummeling them. Therefore, abilities such as Dark Bargain really only fill their true potential in 1v1 situations. Any opposing team that would decide to go full offensive while they're in a pickle is really bad or really desperate, and it rarely happens.

Dark Bargain doesn't fit the role of an offensive cooldown anyways (like cloak of shadows, bubble before they nerfed damage during it, AMS, etc), because you can still get cc'ed/interupted while using it.

And if you are aggressive during it and tank lots of damage, you're in huge trouble over the next 8 seconds.

[pokeadott]

I don't buy that. There was a massive problem with Divine Shield when you could do full damage while completely immune. Death Knights and Anti-Magic Shield are another great example of unstoppable, frustrating offensive power on a defensive cooldown.

No offense X, but that is SOOOOOOOOOOO different. All DK offense is instant cast (ie - cant just interrupt him), the *vast* majority of CC in the game is magical so DKs get a semi-CC immunity while AMS is up, and finally AMS has a huge potential uptime (esp since it can be chained after a mindfreeze or a strang).

A much better comparison would be ice block, which is always used offensively - but only as a trinket. DB, even tho you can 'cast' during it, will never be an offensive CD - you are just as susceptible to cc/interupts when it's up vs when it's not. You need to remember that our damage is stupid easy to prevent - unlike a DK in AMS.

In a world where we pick and choose our pvp cooldowns, I would take Iceblock (assuming x2 which it is for 100% of pvp mages) or AMS any day of the week over Dark Bargain. It's not bad, but being able to cast during it's uptime isn't an amazing feature.

[Lucidious]

I am gonna start trying to use DB and UR at the same time "I wish one was off the gcd for a better macro" and use it offensively and ill let you guys know how it works out. Xel any chance of make one of those abilities off the gcd?

[pokeadott]

I am gonna start trying to use DB and UR at the same time "I wish one was off the gcd for a better macro" and use it offensively and ill let you guys know how it works out. Xel any chance of make one of those abilities off the gcd?

It works well - *BUT* it neuters you completely defensively for the next 3 minutes. If a DK goes AMS to stick a target, he has to make due w/o it for about 38 seconds. They have a choice there. We kind of have a choice with Unending, but honestly we are so obscenely squishy w/o it, that we really can't afford to use it offensively.

If a mage chooses to block offensively (happens a ton on openers), he has to deal with a mere 30sec CD on his next iceblock which he can then pocket for a rainy day. In the mean time, he has Ice Barrier (massive defensive CD - 25sec CD) + all of the inherent CC tools (roots/CC/etc) to go defensive if he's out of tricks so to speak.

If a lock blows his defensive load offensively, he is crippled for the next 3 minutes - which is basically an auto-loss in an arena. Our CDs are far too long to be effective as anything but emergency buttons. Give us a warlock Cold Snap equivalent and maybe we can have the conversation.

[Slyver]

I don't buy that. There was a massive problem with Divine Shield when you could do full damage while completely immune. Death Knights and Anti-Magic Shield are another great example of unstoppable, frustrating offensive power on a defensive cooldown.

These abilities are powerful because you can do your thing while not taking damage AND you can't be CC'ed. That second part is absolutely crucial for the potency of these abilities. The lack of damage is honestly, really not that big of a deal. The fact that after 8s of DB you are much easier to kill, is also a pretty severe drawback that no other ability has.

Warlocks have these drawbacks on the majority of their abilities, yet their abilities are also generally weaker, they have fewer of them, they are on a longer cooldown, and they last for a shorter period of time. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the problems there.

In the case of AMS, it also has WAYYYYY more uptime (2.5 times! to be exact). It's ridiculous to compare them.

[Lucidious]

These abilities are powerful because you can do your thing while not taking damage AND you can't be CC'ed. That second part is absolutely crucial for the potency of these abilities. The lack of damage is honestly, really not that big of a deal. The fact that after 8s of DB you are much easier to kill, is also a pretty severe drawback that no other ability has.

Warlocks have these drawbacks on the majority of their abilities, yet their abilities are also generally weaker, they have fewer of them, they are on a longer cooldown, and they last for a shorter period of time. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the problems there.

In the case of AMS, it also has WAYYYYY more uptime (2.5 times! to be exact). It's ridiculous to compare them.

I could not have said this any better myself. It's amazing how fast I get wrecked after the dark bargain dot hits me. And when i pop DB most people dont leave me alone. They truck me HARDER because they know im gonna die faster. I'm doing the same thind to other locks I face. When they pop DB I chaos bolt them anyway cause the dot just wrecks them so once again training the warlock all game will be a VERY viable strategy in arena's. Cause once UR is down they are toast whether they use DB or not. Im half tempted to take sac pact instead but it's so weak and not worth my pet dieing even faster or "even worse" myself lol. Thats why i want to macro DB and UR together and just use them as a single ability. Because at least I can take 40% less incoming damage while DB is up so I dont get wrecked as hard and can at least go more "toe to toe' one on one with classes "for 8 seconds out of 3 min "

[Kirroth]

These abilities are powerful because you can do your thing while not taking damage AND you can't be CC'ed. That second part is absolutely crucial for the potency of these abilities.

I'll second this. The common thread of AMS, Cloak of Shadows, and Divine Shield is that they bounce any negative effects. This was a huge deal in Cata when all the Warlock active defenses were dependent on doing things to someone trying to kill you. You can't fear them, you can't stun them, you can't snare them, you can't throw up Curse of Weakness. You can't even stack DoTs to shorten the ramp time when the shield is gone. All a Warlock could do it wait it out, or hope that Demonic Circle was ready.

This is one of the reasons I cheered so hard for getting personal defensive cooldowns. It's a way to counter someone using an ability that blocks all your control based defenses. But only UR has any sort of defense again negative effects beyond mere damage, and that only on a very narrow range of them.

[wholol]

indeed, it is mostly true that to use defensive cooldowns offensively, the cooldowns themselves need to provide momentarily unstoppable damage, dark bargain itself does not provide that, it only provides damage relief ( in a flawed way nonetheless).

also, using dark bargain in conjunction with UR is a very big mistake imo, we're basically throwing all our defensive cds at the same time to deal unstoppable damage, yet after those 8 secs are gone we really have nothing left to survive ( except dark regen / HS ), still the point is we cannot use our core survival abilities together to mimic what other classes can do with their defensive cds, which in turn is a poor mimic even if done so.

[6kle]

I've been playing demo pvp and noticed that it is very dependent on Dark Soul. If someone purges it, or worse, a mage spellsteals it your damage plummets and he enjoys 20 seconds of your best dps cooldown on top of his own cooldowns.

I wonder how much of the mage "pvp budget" is used for having that spell because some classes can't use their best dps cooldowns when a mage is around. It would be better if spellsteal only duplicated the spells in pvp to not make it a double whammy.

[wholol]

so far what I'm often seeing here is, dark bargain being the go to talent in that tier, and very few references to sac pact, Soul Link seems non existent tbh.

doesn't this just shows that the talent itself is very weak compared to the others? I hope it can be buffed a tad so it comes in line with the other talents.
I understand the original nerf from 100% hp simply because it used to be great in the situation where the warlock is the only person taking the damage, and blizzard nerfed it to 50% ( which was a tremendous difference, why wasn't it nerfed to 80% or 70% ?).
regardless I think the nerf altogether was not needed at all, simply stated the current soul link has advantages and disadvantages, if blizzard had considered the depth of both sides I do not think it would have been nerfed.

though that has already been done, I just hope it can be buffed a bit at least to make it an attractive talent.
what would change if this were to happen is, soul link might be considered instead of dark bargain and we could gain the steady survivability that we've been talking about, of course the downsides will be there, but a smart lock would know how to use it and micromanage it.

[Kirroth]

indeed, it is mostly true that to use defensive cooldowns offensively, the cooldowns themselves need to provide momentarily unstoppable damage

Yes, that's it! That's the point I was trying and failing to word succinctly. The offensive component is the immunity to control effects, not the damage reduction.

UR's interrupt and silence protection are a more powerful offensive tool than a defensive one. That's why some of us were arguing to split it off from the damage reduction, because we didn't like having to use our best defensive cooldown to get it. Unbound Will has a touch of that, but it's only a break and not an immunity. What has a real offensive punch in PvP is the several GCDs of unhindered action that are so hard to achieve otherwise.

[Naojirou]

Was this on the Beta at 90, or on the live servers at 85? Because the Dev claim is that these 3-GCD burst kills will go away again once we're at the new max level that the numbers are balanced around. I'm going to trust them, which is why I've sworn off PvP for the next two weeks. If they're right, trying to use the current situation as a reason for complaint is wasted effort. If they're not, well, plenty of time to make a case later on.

Sorry for late response mate. However what I am complaining isnt really the 5 second kill. They could make it 10, however I just cannot use my defensives thanks to gcd's and silences.

1. Rogue gouge. Damage will be high. Should I trinket?
a) Yes you should, because if you dont, you are going to die.
b) No you shouldnt, expect your pala friend to bubble and HoP you.
I picked option a, since option b can be used in the meanwhile too. However: A stun right after the trinket. Couldnt use the cd. Dead.

2. A spell that makes you immune to all silences for 8 seconds. Why would it ever not break a silence? And: Why is it a spell so that cant be cast while silenced? Those 2 are different things. Even while keeping the silence debuff on me, I'd like to have a 40% DR on me.

3. Using cooldowns before the impact: As I said, a hunter and a rogue. Camo and stealth. I dont think they would ever ever be stupid enough to attack me while I'm under Dark Bargain when they can just... wait for it?

Again mate, the issue isnt about being bursted down in 5 seconds. It is, not being able to use CD's while silenced or stunned. This especially goes for UR.

[nightfalls]

I've been playing demo pvp and noticed that it is very dependent on Dark Soul. If someone purges it, or worse, a mage spellsteals it your damage plummets and he enjoys 20 seconds of your best dps cooldown on top of his own cooldowns.

Partly I think this is an artifact of Demon Soul and poor MOP design. If Demon Soul was spellstolen the mage got a pretty useless buff, so it was more of a purge. However, the mastery from Dark Soul is far more powerful on a mage.

[wholol]

Partly I think this is an artifact of Demon Soul and poor MOP design. If Demon Soul was spellstolen the mage got a pretty useless buff, so it was more of a purge. However, the mastery from Dark Soul is far more powerful on a mage.

mastery, haste or even crit, no matter which dark soul he spellsteals it's going to increase his damage by a lot.

[Hellfury]

Since there is a heavy comparison with mages along the whole thread here is a "educational" video on mage CC abilities, especially fire