[Guide] Active Mitigation Hipsters - 5.4 DK Tanking

[Reniat]

When im doing mastery>avoidance reforging I just use the macro I give in my guide, and when I'm doing hit/exp caps I just use reforgelite. I try to stay away from AMR.

[Zoopercat]

Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. We just updated the stats for 5.2, but we are still tweaking things based on user feedback. We've raised the value of armor for some other tank classes and we can do it for Blood DKs too. We'll get that in the next update (today or tomorrow).

When I look up the generic blood DK, I see the armor meta being recommended. If you see something else, can you give me the character name/realm - I'll look into it.

If you have any other feedback, let me know We're always listening to the theorycrafters.

[Reniat]

Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. We just updated the stats for 5.2, but we are still tweaking things based on user feedback. We've raised the value of armor for some other tank classes and we can do it for Blood DKs too. We'll get that in the next update (today or tomorrow).

When I look up the generic blood DK, I see the armor meta being recommended. If you see something else, can you give me the character name/realm - I'll look into it.

If you have any other feedback, let me know We're always listening to the theorycrafters.

I think there are two things keeping me from recommending AMR at the moment, those being how you handle dodge vs parry and how you handle avoidance vs mastery in a mastery focused build. I'm not 100% sure how you handle dodge/parry internally, but I don't think it quite matches up with the data that was figured out in beta where the ideal parry/dodge ratio is := C_p/C_d - ((C_p)/C_d)*baseDodge-baseParry)/totalDodge, where C_p is the DK parry cap (235.5) and C_d is the DK dodge cap (90.6425). Currently AMR puts me VERY parry heavy relative to that ratio definition.

The other thing is how you handle mastery vs avoidance when devaluing hit/exp. A good example is t14 hands. 2/2 heroic t14 hands have base stats at 560 hit and 1105 dodge. Since hit/exp is valued very low it takes out of hit to put into mastery instead of dodge, which gives nearly double the mastery after reforging. However if it were something like 800 hit and 820 dodge, it would probably be better to sacrifice that 8 mastery and reforge out of the hit, so you'd have to define that grey area of when to go for more mastery and when to go for the avoidance, and since the two provide completely different benefits and deciding if the TDR from reforging out of the hit or the mastery from reforging out of the higher avoidance stat is better largely comes down to player preference, even inside of a vacuum min/max theoretical world.


I fully realize that the second concern can easily be fixed with custom weights, but I am of the opinion (and it is an opinion) that most people who would know to adjust the weights would probably just do it manually for maximum mastery, since there are no hard decisions on pieces or caps to hit, reducing the need for an algorithm. For example, if you are doing mastery>avoidance you only ever need to look at 2 stats, and the algorithm would be as simple as this:

if (stat1 or stat2 == mastery)
{
if (stat1 == mastery){stat2.reforge(min(parry,dodge))}
elif (stat2 == mastery){stat1.reforge(min(parry,dodge))}
}
else{max(stat1,stat2).reforge(mastery)}

With the only exception being on pieces with 1 accuracy stat and 1 avoidance stat, which would have to be taken on a piece by piece basis, but those pieces should be fairly few and far between since most of your gear should have mastery on it already.

It's basically just simple if/then checks that don't quite take the complexity of getting as close as possible to a specific cap. for finding min(parry,dodge) you would simply use the macro in the guide to find if your ideal parry is above/below or within acceptable limits of your current parry.

Those are the only blood related beefs i have with AMR. I've heard you guys on Converttoraid and I like what you guys do. The only reason I use reforgelite for non-blood things (or when getting hit/exp caps as blood) is because I can do it from in game as opposed to having to go to AMR (plus I don't usually log out in frost, which made it a pain when I'd try to reforge my offspec).

[Zoopercat]

Reniat, thanks so much for that detailed response. I'll run it past our guys who do the stat weight tests and whatnot and get back to you. We are in agreement that we want the base stat weights to be as good as possible so the average person doesn't have to do custom weights

In case you're curious, here's more info about how we get our stat weights. I don't have our diminishing returns assumptions on that post, but that's something I should probably add

[underdogba]

While I agree that OP shouldn't go with stamina based on the circumstances on his post, stamina builds is still completely and 100% viable.

Stamina versus secondaries is just a pointless "holy war" that has no objective answer outside of actual personal raiding experience with your specific comp and the playstyle of the healers involved. I personally favor stam on trinkets and secondaries in gems because that maximizes raw itemization, but really this is just arguing over nothing on the internet.

[Reniat]

Stamina versus secondaries is just a pointless "holy war" that has no objective answer outside of actual personal raiding experience with your specific comp and the playstyle of the healers involved. I personally favor stam on trinkets and secondaries in gems because that maximizes raw itemization, but really this is just arguing over nothing on the internet.

Isn't that what im saying? that it comes down to your individual raid comp/size/difficulty/healers?

---------- Post added 2013-03-13 at 03:30 PM ----------

Reniat, thanks so much for that detailed response. I'll run it past our guys who do the stat weight tests and whatnot and get back to you. We are in agreement that we want the base stat weights to be as good as possible so the average person doesn't have to do custom weights

In case you're curious, here's more info about how we get our stat weights. I don't have our diminishing returns assumptions on that post, but that's something I should probably add

I'm more than happy to help if i can

[Yellowfive]

Hey -- I do a lot of the development on the optimization algorithms and stat weights for Mr. Robot.

Reniat -- are you saying that you prefer more of the hit/exp preset as opposed to the mastery preset? Or do you prefer a strategy that prioritizes mastery, then hit/exp, then avoidance? Or do you just think the mastery build should be "flatter", with hit/exp being much closer in value to the other stats? We "flattened" the weights for some of the other classes with good results.

As for the dodge/parry ratio... I looked, and it seems we were using the same dodge cap as paladins -- I think we never got confirmation on the dk dodge cap and didn't circle back. I can change it and it should put dodge a little closer to parry. These caps are extremely hard to find -- they are usually buried in forum threads or blog posts. Also note that you want to look at "dodge (on gear)" and "parry (on gear)" for the purposes of comparing and DR. This is the amount that is subject to DR. The idea is that were you to apply the DR formulas to each of these numbers, the % reduction to total dodge (on gear) should be about equal to the % reduction to total parry (on gear).

When I change dodge cap to ~90, a generic DK gives me:
21.44% parry on gear
8.31% dodge on gear

This looks correct: you are getting about 95% of the pre-DR dodge and parry.

Another thing to note -- balancing parry/dodge is probably one of the least important parts of gear optimization for tanks. It has a negligible impact on TDR as long as you are in the right ballpark. By ballpark, I mean +/- 5% on either stat is not really noticeable -- this is best illustrated by an example. Let's say that we have 40% dodge or parry to allocate. Let's allocate that in increments of 5% and look at our total avoidance (D = dodge, P = parry, all numbers are whole percentage points):

05D / 35P: 36.66
10D / 30P: 37.09
15D / 25P: 36.93
20D / 20P: 36.22
25D / 15P: 35.01
30D / 10P: 33.33
35D / 05P: 31.20

Look how insignificant the change in your total post-DR avoidance is as we vary the gap between pre-DR dodge/parry in huge 10% chunks. Even if you are WAY off, you lose less than 1% total avoidance. The overall point of this: stressing over parry/dodge balancing is misplaced effort -- the way that gear is itemized and the large contribution to parry from strength basically makes almost everyone "automatically" fall into the "too close to care" realm with dodge/parry.

[Nillo]

#1 I don't think you should focus on finding a correct algorithm that balances dodge/parry for tanks - an approximation will probably suffice.
#2 Avoidance vs Accuracy vs Stamina is a discussion that has been going on forever - In current content I'd say 25m tanks should generally focus on Stamina>Mastery >Avoidance and 10m tanks should focus on Hit/Exp softcap > Mastery > Exp hard > haste/avoidance.
No matter how you look at it there's no simple formula to evaluate those stats. E.g. iirc haste is about half as effective as mastery at reducing damage taken, but also provides some dps boost meaning it's generally worse than avoidance for damage mitigation (high magic damage taken and low boss damage can increase the value compared to avoidance) but generally has a slightly higher overall value.

I just don't see how you could adjust the stat weightings to cover all factors (player skills, healer setup , raid size).

[Reniat]

Whats the point of using computation if you're only going to approximate dodge/parry? anyone can eyeball dodge/parry DR to the point of minimal impact in raids, the logic of using computer with algorithms is to have something else do the work of getting it optimal beyond what's probably worth doing by hand. Sure balancing DR has little impact on performance, especially this early in gear progression, but if it's just a matter of putting in the right variables then i fail to see the rational of not getting them as close as possible. In my opinion you shouldn't be able to get significantly closer with my macro and reforging by hand than you would by using a researched and thought out computer algorithm.

What i was saying with the mastery build, is that there are times when using a mastery>avoidance>accuracy build that you will take the avoidance and reforge it to mastery as opposed to the accuracy on say hit/dodge or exp/parry pieces because taking out of the avoidance will yield more mastery than taking out of the accuracy, so you do that even though you might value avoidance more than you do hit. Basically making mastery more valuable relative to both avoidance on mastery>avoidance builds.

[Deleted]

Hi, does anyone here know of a 5.2 BiS (normal) list for Blood DK? Thanks

[Nillo]

Hi, does anyone here know of a 5.2 BiS (normal) list for Blood DK? Thanks

There is none because there is no simple stat priority for tanks.

[Reniat]

this is a loose pre-Ra-den BiS list for blood based on a mastery>>>avoidance build:

head: Faceguard of the All-Consuming Maw Twin Consorts (tier)
neck: Moonhade Necklace Twin Consorts
shoulders: Shoulderguards of the All-Consuming Maw Iron Qon (tier)
back: Backbreaker Greatcloak Tortos
chest: Rot-Proof Greatplate Megaera
wrist: Bracers of Constant Implosion Jin-Rokh
or
wrist: Caustic Spike Bracers Durumu
(which ever one drops a master + dodge/parry/hit/expertise version first)
hands: Artery Rippers Durumu
waist: Cloudbreaker Greatbelt Jin'Rokh
legs: Legplates of Whipping Ionization Lei Shen
feet: Columnbreaker Stompers trash drop
or
feet: Treads of the Blind Eye until stompers drop
ring1: Loop of the Shado-Pan Assault VP ring
ring2: Durumu's Severed Tentacle Durumu
trinket1: Fortitude of the Zandalari Council of Elders
trinket2: Soul Barrier Lei Shen

For normal you would replace the listed hands with the ones from Shado-pan assault.

[Deleted]

Thanks Reniat im currently sticking to mastery build, this should help

[Yellowfive]

Reniat -- re-read my post. I said that in our next update we'll update the dk dodge cap, which should give you the "perfect" balance that you are looking for.

The rest of it was a comment on the fact that it's kind of silly to not recommend a handy tool like Mr. Robot because there is a near-insignificant flaw in one of the calculations Your post implied that getting the perfect balance of dodge/parry is really important for DK tanks, when in fact it is not -- we want Mr. Robot to give the best gear advice possible, but we also do not want to mislead DK tanks into thinking that small tweaks to their dodge/parry ratio will make any measurable difference. Then everyone will run around agonizing over it, or even worse, berating players who are a little bit off the perfect ratio.


So Reniat -- you are basically saying that you think the relative value of hit/exp in the default mastery>avoidance build is too low compared to other stats. What do you think would be a better balance? Go to Mr. Robot, load a character, then press "edit weights". Adjust hit/exp up/down until you think it is reaching a good trade-off, and post the results. We will take a look at that in conjunction with any other comments you have and see if updating that gearing strategy is in order.


We offer 3 different default gearing strategies for blood DKs for the exact reason than Nillo states: there is no "winner take all" strategy for blood tanks. The 3 defaults seem to be the most popular strategies. While we will take any strategy (stat weights) and suggest a BiS set of gear, you really need to be careful with any single BiS list -- it's just a suggestion. Your goal should be not to get those exact items, but to get a set of gear that has similar characteristics to that representative set (similar stat totals and ratios of mastery to hit to stamina to whatever).

[Fockatron]

I was just wondering if anyone could give me a couple tips to help me tank ToT stuff. Here's our first council kill. I felt that i was taking a lot of damage, but i'm not sure what i was doing wrong. I'm also going to attach a horridon log. Please help me work on my survivability.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/3...=11375&e=11887
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/3...?s=4844&e=5455
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...chuck/advanced My armory

[Deleted]

I'm a bit too tired to go through your logs (I usually am, but I might take a look at them when I wake up^^) but looking at your armory all your gearing (gemming, reforging) and talents (+glyphs, I'd probably skip VB on most fights with your gear though) seem close to perfect. That being said, even if you happen to play really well you will take a lot of damage at your current gear level (gear matters a lot, sadly), my offtank (admittedly not a dk) around your gear level is taking (compared to me) insane amounts of damage on every boss (despite being a solid player), while I (a bit above 510 ilvl) barely require any outside healing on most bosses.

[Deleted]

looking at your armory all your gearing (gemming, reforging) and talents (+glyphs, I'd probably skip VB on most fights with your gear though) seem close to perfect. .

OT, but looking at the armory, Tricks is wearing mist-piercing googles. I think you don't actually have to wear them to get access to more nodes - just have them in your inventory. (Irrelevant to blood dk tanking, but a small quality of life issue.)

[Fockatron]

OT, but looking at the armory, Tricks is wearing mist-piercing googles. I think you don't actually have to wear them to get access to more nodes - just have them in your inventory. (Irrelevant to blood dk tanking, but a small quality of life issue.)

And damn good advice at that. TY

I'm a bit too tired to go through your logs (I usually am, but I might take a look at them when I wake up^^) but looking at your armory all your gearing (gemming, reforging) and talents (+glyphs, I'd probably skip VB on most fights with your gear though) seem close to perfect. That being said, even if you happen to play really well you will take a lot of damage at your current gear level (gear matters a lot, sadly), my offtank (admittedly not a dk) around your gear level is taking (compared to me) insane amounts of damage on every boss (despite being a solid player), while I (a bit above 510 ilvl) barely require any outside healing on most bosses.

Yeah, i swapped from warrior dps to DK tanking because one of your tanks left and we needed to do a couple main swaps. Which is why my gear is a little behind. Our main tank has 500+ilvl compared to me

[Kiqjaq]

I was just wondering if anyone could give me a couple tips to help me tank ToT stuff. Here's our first council kill. I felt that i was taking a lot of damage, but i'm not sure what i was doing wrong. I'm also going to attach a horridon log. Please help me work on my survivability.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/3...=11375&e=11887
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/3...?s=4844&e=5455
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...chuck/advanced My armory

I'm going to put this at meh gear if you're taking high damage.

http://pasteboard.co/VImjlpJ.png

Your cooldown usage seems rock solid. High uptime on virtually everything, but still had something ready for every time WotN proc'd. Very little unnecessary overlap; the only overlap (Bone Shield notwithstanding) was a major with a short, and WotN proc'd shortly after so it was probably a good call.

Not sure what advice to give you man, seems alright to me.

[Xarganthos]

just wanted to know if my DK would be ready for ToT normal... (bought trinket + bracers because i had blue heroic items equipped)

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nthos/advanced thanks in advance