The 'Special Snowflake' argument. (A mostly personal view)

[Murdos]

Yanno. I'm starting to think I'm the only semi-serious raider who disliked LFR because it was filled with tools and douchebags.

[Deleted]

Personally, I think LFR is suffering from an identity crisis. Is it an opportunity for people with less time to see the content/lore? Is it a gateway to raiding? Is it a place for not so skilled players to get given "easy" epics?

If it's about the lore/content, then the drops should be very marginal upgrades from LFD. The fact is that they are considerably better, especially for someone who didn't raid the previous tier. This makes LFR a "mandatory" progression step, especially if you're looking to Pug your way into normal. So, yes, in a way, a lot of players, myself included, feel "forced" to run LFR every week, as it's the easiest/only way to fill those slots you need upgrading (for me trinkets, still got both LFR versions, and only got Creche last week, so now I don't need to run LFR anymore).

If it's a gateway raid, then it needs to do more to educate players. In fact the game as a whole is really bad at this. My girlfriend is playing a Demonology Warlock as her first character, and it's just way beyond her reach to play that class properly. She sees no use for Bane of Doom, Curse of Elements, Immolation Aura etc., refreshes Corruption way too early, doesn't Life Tap, and won't Hellfire because it hurts her. She's not ready to raid. She's not ready for the abuse she's going to receive in LFR. I can only help her so much. The game needs a stronger tutorial. Sorry for the tangent. If players were educated properly by the game, LFR could actually be used as a gateway raid a lot better I think, but it is currently populated with players like my girlfriend, who frankly don't know what they're doing, through no fault of their own.

And as far as "easy" epics go - I have more wipes on LFR Ultraxion on my main (Arms Warrior if it matters) than Normal/HM on all of my characters put together (Warr, DK, Warlock, Priest). It's not always the case, but the majority of the time, I have a really bad experience with LFR, and I just have to give up after a while. LFR is the most difficult place to get epics with the amount of competition you get on drops factored in as well as how difficult it is to actually kill anything.

Halfway summary: LFR can work as a progression step with a gear level between LFD and Normal, but it really needs a shared lockout. If it's for people with no time, then they won't be affected. If it's a gateway raid, then you'll just eventually gravitate to doing normal raids, and will stop using LFR. Blizzard did the right thing in linking 10 and 25. I actually think they should go one further and link Normal and Hard mode, or at least to the point where if you kill a boss on normal, you lock yourself out of Hard Mode for the remaining bosses for that reset, so you can't "skip" bosses. Bring back some progression. The other thing this does is allow Blizzard to nerf the difficult of LFR as much as they want without affecting any of the people like me who actually want difficult content in the game.

I would also like to say that I think the nerfing of hard mode content is a bit ridiculous, but not as ridiculous as people suggesting to turn the debuff off. It doesn't work like that. The issue with the nerfing is the principle that there should be a wall that you and your raid group overcomes, either through improving skill or gear. You shouldn't have to build that wall yourself. Also, there is the point that you can only either have it on full or off. Example: if we're stuck on Boss X on 20% nerf, and it gets upped to 30%, we can either put it to 0% or 30%. If we had Boss X at 4% every wipe, we'd kill it with that nerf, but not because we overcame the wall, it just got lowered. It doesn't feel right.

What LFR does for people like me is increase burnout, and rapidly cuts down the time it takes to consume content. Simple solution is to make it share a lockout. Same for hard mode and normal... Just to bring back at least some sense of progression.

This "Snowflake" thing is completely mad. When there was a huge LFR backlash at first, yes I saw a lot of people being snowflakey, but after the first few weeks, it was people with legit concerns about why they disliked LFR or how it should be improved or removed (although rash, I think this would be a better option than the current implementation), and they're just being tarnished with this "snowflake" brush, and their points ignored. Just look at Draztal on EU forums... That guy is so stubborn, it annoys me. Just completely blind to any sort of constructive argument.

I would like anyone who thinks I'm being snowflakey to say how and why they think that. I honestly don't care what other players are doing. All I care about is how LFR has had a fairly large detrimental impact on my personal experience with this game.

/endrant

[AbalDarkwind]

It's true, LFR most probably wont go away, but another interesting idea was presented to remove heroic mode. Whatever Blizzard decides to do, it would be better for all players if the division between them is as small as it can possibly get, be it by making the entirety of raids as something everyone can be successful at on a regular, weekly routine. The days when the sole act of raiding was a reward by itself are pretty much over, and the last thing that still keeps the players in their 'respective boxes/tags' is the existence of heroic mode ''for those extra dedicated players''. These categories need to cease to exist and merge into just ''the players''. Until then, bitching and moaning will continue about every single thing Blizzard does or doesn't do.

I don't believe that removing content, regardless of if it is LFR, Heroic or something else, is a sound move. Blizzard would alienate too much of the playerbase if they did this. Even if we talk about how only 10% of players killed Heroic Madness of Deathwing. . .that's still almost a million people. Driving those players away isn't the answer. I do like your idea of "shrinking the gap" between players, but I feel more gameplay through unique systems is the only way to truly close that gap without leaving a chunk of players out in the cold.

What LFR does for people like me is increase burnout, and rapidly cuts down the time it takes to consume content. Simple solution is to make it share a lockout. Same for hard mode and normal... Just to bring back at least some sense of progression.

Agreed. In fact, I would be completely surprised if, by the end of MoP, LFR didn't share a lockout with normal and heroic. It should be an alternative to raiding normal, not a link in the progression chain.

[roahn the warlock]

I like to compare it to owning a nice car in new york city. Do you get to drive it fast? No, you buy it so people turn and look. This goes for gear and mounts, If every car looked like a ferarri why would you spend 200k on one? Life isn't Mr. Roger's neighorhood

and before you say it's just a game, when I go to the carnival and drop 5 bucks on a -game- I don't bitch when I don't win the stuffed bear

[MoanaLisa]

Where it goes bad is when people think of themselves as special enough to start demanding things, wanting to dictate how others play and constantly comparing themselves publically to others in efforts to pump up their own egos or shame others.

If you're that good, keep it to yourself. Be proud of your personal and team/guild accomplishments. Don't feel as if you have the right and duty to now lord it over everyone else.

TL-DR -- As long as you mind your own business and don't try to mind others, you can be or feel as special as you want to.

[Deleted]

I don't believe that removing content, regardless of if it is LFR, Heroic or something else, is a sound move. Blizzard would alienate too much of the playerbase if they did this. Even if we talk about how only 10% of players killed Heroic Madness of Deathwing. . .that's still almost a million people. Driving those players away isn't the answer. I do like your idea of "shrinking the gap" between players, but I feel more gameplay through unique systems is the only way to truly close that gap without leaving a chunk of players out in the cold.



Agreed. In fact, I would be completely surprised if, by the end of MoP, LFR didn't share a lockout with normal and heroic. It should be an alternative to raiding normal, not a link in the progression chain.

http://www.wowprogress.com/post/83_H...roic_Deathwing

Have a look at this link. Might surprise you. (It's not 10% of players that have cleared HC DS, it's 10% of raiders - raiders being only a fraction of the playerbase in and of themselves.) If we go to hardcore raiders we see this little factoid -

From wowprogress -

More precisely, here are amounts of guilds that killed the bosses within 4 months after the first kills:

Deathwing: 2934
Deathwing 25-man: 605

Ragnaros: 1537
Ragnaros 25-man: 317

That's a vanishingly small number of people in a sea of millions. The argument can be much more easily be made that the 30% nerfed version should be the only HC mode released and those seeking a proper hardcore experience can bugger off and go and learn korean or something to get their thrills than LFR should be removed.

[Bellentino]

But back to WoW, nobody is ever saying "No. Mine! You can't have it". All people are saying is "You want it, go get it.". And that's how things should be.

Exactly how I feel about things. You're not a special snowflake if you do something everyone else can do provided they put in the effort to reach that point. That's how I got through the Burning Crusade

[AbalDarkwind]

http://www.wowprogress.com/post/83_H...roic_Deathwing

Have a look at this link. Might surprise you. (It's not 10% of players that have cleared HC DS, it's 10% of raiders - raiders being only a fraction of the playerbase in and of themselves.) If we go to hardcore raiders we see this little factoid -

That's a vanishingly small number of people in a sea of millions. The argument can be much more easily be made that the 30% nerfed version should be the only HC mode released and those seeking a proper hardcore experience can bugger off and go and learn korean or something to get their thrills than LFR should be removed.

First of all, we can't take WoW Progress as the sole measure of all guilds on every continent that WoW is available. It's sample data and, therefore, isn't conclusive data. Only Blizzard has the latter. However, just doing the math, that's 40K people that killed H Madness by the end of April, assuming that all of those raid teams stayed completely static. That's still a decent amount of people, especially considering the data isn't complete. I'm sure that number rose quite a bit as people progressed from May until today, as well.

What I'm ultimately saying is that while I definitely do not agree that removing LFR is the right move, I also don't agree with the opposite extreme: removing Heroic.

[MoanaLisa]

Personally, I think LFR is suffering from an identity crisis. Is it an opportunity for people with less time to see the content/lore? Is it a gateway to raiding? Is it a place for not so skilled players to get given "easy" epics?

It hasn't been in the game long enough to actually have an identity as such. It was implemented barely finished and patched together in an emergency way to try and save some subscriptions, something it apparently helped with for one quarter. In addition, it was implemented on a raid that most would consider less than stellar. The fact that it's been as much of a success as it as, with all of its problems and issues and unpleasantness, is something that should give people pause.

LFR can serve several functions at once (training/tryout ground, access for those who aren't in guilds for whatever reason...we all know the arguments). MoP will be the first time that all raid content for an expansion will be available at 3 difficulty levels, with a much-changed loot distribution system, and other adjustments made along the way based on what's happened with it up to now (including the adjustments to loot levels made last week). As such, whatever identity it's going to assume is still a work-in-progress and only time will tell.

As for the rest of your post, stop with the tired arguments about how you're forced to do it and how it ruins your raiding experience and how Blizzard needs to change the lockouts to save you from yourself queuing up for it. Be responsible and don't use it if you don't like it. That's the simple solution and it doesn't affect anyone else's use of LFR.

For nerfed raids, raiders that want the achievement/FOS for turning the nerfs off and beating the raid will suddenly find out that indeed it does work that way. I guarantee it will be a revelation how easy it will be to turn it off and attempt to get the Feat of Strength.

EDIT1: The much more interesting thing will be to watch and see what, if anything, happens to raiding guilds generally now that all players can see all raids without the effects, both good and bad, that come along with being in a guild.

EDIT2: I do agree with Aerodyne that LFR needs much, much more in the way of DBM-style messages telling people what to do. It would be an immense help to those that are just getting into things. And it has the advantage of seeming to be doable without devising any new technology or anything like that.

[Deleted]

First of all, we can't take WoW Progress as the sole measure of all guilds on every continent that WoW is available. It's sample data and, therefore, isn't conclusive data. Only Blizzard has the latter. However, just doing the math, that's 40K people that killed H Madness by the end of April, assuming that all of those raid teams stayed completely static. That's still a decent amount of people, especially considering the data isn't complete. I'm sure that number rose quite a bit as people progressed from May until today, as well.

It's currently at 17%. That's with all the youtube videos, guides and 8 months of gearing and practice.

What I'm ultimately saying is that while I definitely do not agree that removing LFR is the right move, I also don't agree with the opposite extreme: removing Heroic.

Sure, I get it.

But I think it has to be acknowledged that if blizzard were forced to remove one of the two raiding modes - LFR or HC, it would never be LFR.

Those who want to be special should be thinking blizzard for giving them the chance to have it.

[AbalDarkwind]

It's currently at 17%. That's with all the youtube videos, guides and 8 months of gearing and practice.

It's still not conclusive data which is the problem with using statistics like this. We are only getting some of the picture. Furthermore, there is no data to suggest how many people who generally don't raid use LFR. If "raiders" includes people who use LFR, 17% is significant.

Sure, I get it.

But I think it has to be acknowledged that if blizzard were forced to remove one of the two raiding modes - LFR or HC, it would never be LFR.

Those who want to be special should be thinking blizzard for giving them the chance to have it.

I just don't believe that hypothetical and often absurd "what ifs", such as removing LFR or Heroic, make compelling discussions or arguments. We should be discussing a way to close the gap between LFR and Heroic players, keeping both types of players happy without trodding on the other (Outside of ridiculous "special snowflake" arguments), or both. This "us or them" attitude is completely tearing the community apart.

[Deleted]

It's still not conclusive data which is the problem with using statistics like this. We are only getting some of the picture. Furthermore, there is no data to suggest how many people who generally don't raid use LFR. If "raiders" includes people who use LFR, 17% is significant.

Aye, but it's all we have to go off until blizzard starts handing out their numbers. It's certainly more accurate than your original statement.

I just don't believe that hypothetical and often absurd "what ifs", such as removing LFR or Heroic, make compelling discussions or arguments. We should be discussing a way to close the gap between LFR and Heroic players, keeping both types of players happy without trodding on the other (Outside of ridiculous "special snowflake" arguments), or both. This "us or them" attitude is completely tearing the community apart.

That's not true at all. The only people butthurt about HC raiding not being uber difficult are a mere handful. They really can be safely ignored. While very vocal on sites like this one (a fact which gives the appearance of more popularity to the argument than their actually is) statistically they are irrelevent. They don;t make up enough of the community to tear it apart. They don't even make up enough sub numbers that anyone would notice if they all quit.

Peoples front of judea, if you like.

[Seriss]

Removing LFR would suck. I don't want to have to find PuGs for my alts all the time. It's way more convenient to be able to jump into LFR on the whim of the moment if I feel like doing some light raiding on an off-day.

Removing heroic mode would suck as well. I actually like progress-raiding. I like wiping to a boss at 90%, then at 75%, then at 50%, then at a 33% transition, then a few times sub-5% until it finally dies.

If anything, remove normal mode. That would suck as well, because I actually like raiding normal modes on alts sometimes too, when people I know still need a friend to fill in, and when I have the time, I welcome the chance to.

So... well, I suppose... don't remove anything. Everything has its place. People just have to become more tolerant of other people's wishes and needs again.

I don't see the 'gap' that needs to be narrowed in the game. The 'gap' is in people's minds. Because most people don't care that others might have fun with the different difficulty levels, let alone that someone could actively enjoy all aspects of the game. No way. You are either a good player, in which case you have to do heroic modes or you're a baddie which limits you to LFR. That you should be able to do a mix of it all, surely cannot be what anybody wants. That someone should actually enjoy doing LFR on top of regular raiding with their mains - blasphemy.

I still maintain that the existence of LFR doesn't contribute to 'burnout' - how I hate that word being abused to describe 'this raid has been out for 3 months, I've seen it, I have it all, I've just had enough of it.' No, of course, a raid would stay more interesting to you if you didn't have the option to raid it more often. During WotLK, we had 4 IDs that we could blow on the same raid instance. And we blew them. On our mains and on various alts. Yes, there were a few items that could be of use. But they weren't necessary. Just nice to have. We did ToGC for fun, to get better, to get there with 50 tries left, even at a point where we didn't need anything anymore. We went there with 3 alts a week because we enjoyed playing together. Or because a PuG was looking for a few people and you were bored anyway, so you jumped right in for the 10th time that week.

Don't pretend that being burnt out has anything to do with the number of times that you see a dungeon. Being burnt out has something to do with doing stuff that's not fun to you. So take a step back and ask yourself what's fun for you and then do that. Of course, if your definition of having fun is that you want to dictate others how to live their WoW life and take away their options because they aren't to your own tastes, nobody can help you. I hope Blizzard will keep on providing options instead of limiting them. It was hard enough to adjust to their shared ID thing, and LFR provides a nice solution to loosening up a bit on that restriction.

[Deleted]

tbh it's the most satisfying feeling if u got something that's not available anymore.

[Crashdummy]

I am sorry, but I think using english every day, be it on WoW or any other game is positive. Even my trip to UK where I spoke english all the time was efficient in learning it. You can't just get everything in schools.

Oh btw, I would never use ANY accomplishment and use it as a basis to look down on another person, nor did I say anything like that. Those who don't raid obviously don't like raiding, and really, I never heard people calling them lazy...

You dont read this forums very often, right?

Almost every day i read something in the lines of "Why should casuals that dont want to put efforst and improve their skills should hace access to gear similar to mine but with less stats? LFR sucks".

[DanBowie]

Yea I dont see how people think they will be the only ones with items on a game millions of people play.

[Crashdummy]

SNIP

LFR doesnt suffer from any identity crisis, the problem is, that it has many objectives.

Yes, one if for non raiders/ people with no time/ people with crazy schedules to see the content. Another is to get another way to gear up and prepare for the next steps, another is to enjoy a large group environment without having to leave your social guild/small friends guild. And more, and more and more.

And yes, you are a special snowflake, because you are bashing an optional tool that wasnt designed for you just because the ones that use it get gear which is worse than yours. There isnt anything more close to being a special snowflake than that really.

I agree with you with the nerfs to HM raids though, they are too soon and too harsh. I wouldnt have a problem with HM raiding never being nerfed outside of fixes in stupid mechanics (like the need to stack burst classes in spine).

[Mongo42]

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Now if you want to see some REAL "unique snowflake" rants, just wait till people realize 2 of their "must have" talents are on the same tier and they can only choose 1. The snowflakes will be different because there is no "best talent to take" without considering playstyle.

But as far as raiding, people still die in ICC while overgearing the hell out of the place. As many of us have said for years, "You can't outgear stupidity". Access to content doesn't mean the average "accessable" dumbass is going to clear it. People wiped in H Occ in raid gear, and H Arc made raiders cry. If they dumb the game down to the point that hyperactive idiots can easily play it, then the game will be mostly populated by hyperactive idiots, not by a full range of players. And THEN there's the Challenge modes that CAN'T be outgeared which will flood the forums with "It's not fair!!!" , and the Scenarios that there will be no tank or healer to blame for 3 idiot DPS wiping over and over. /popcorn

[Deleted]

You dont read this forums very often, right?

Almost every day i read something in the lines of "Why should casuals that dont want to put efforst and improve their skills should hace access to gear similar to mine but with less stats? LFR sucks".

And I bet you read it from same people over and over again.
And I don't like LFR but does that mean I want them to remove it? Ofc not.
I enjoy raiding challenging content (it doesn't matter if it's LFR, normal or heroic, it matters what is challenging to me) and LFR is simply too easy. The one thing I don't like is that I need to do it because every progression guild expects that you will do whatever you can to get upgrades. That means you must come prepared to raids - use pots, buff food, enchants, gems, flasks and with all the available gear you can get from rep vendors/LFR/heroic instances etc.