[MoP] Holy Paladin Guide 5.4

[bouchbagfett]

Is there any point at which the stat weight of Mastery and the stat weight of Intellect become equivalent to one another?

I revisited this today after reading your post. I made a new table looking at HPS for the basic SH rotation to see if such things happen. I have previously calculated the stat values but I kept the total values within achievable ranges. I went over the top a bit to see if I could find funky scaling.



Basically intellect gains stat value as we stack it, but slowly. To make Intellect 2x better than mastery (so making it the gem of choice) you would have to add 17k intellect, or 107 int gems. Ain't gonna happen. Eternal flame scales similarly in that int will gradually be worth more over other stats but not in the achievable range. There is more to the post and what I did and why here.

majority of players out there think that progression level = skill level, and that's obnoxious.

There are lots of ways to judge a player's skill and they are all not perfect. Progression? Sure, people can be carried, or they raid a ton. Item Level? Lucky Drops, 25man loot train. Logs? Play with poor raid aware team members, non healing/absorb main tanks, no Disc Priest in raid, cheese parses. Taking anyone piece to judge the validity of ones argument is a flaw, but people also need a way to filter out the good and bad. Progression is one of the easiest ways to do this and I challenge you to find a 10 man holy pally who is 14/14 heroic spec'ed EF spaming LoD. Thok on up the fights get much harder and there is no room for carries in 10 at that point (but Ilvl is certainly helping).

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I'm curious if going raw INT would create more synergy while healing with a Disc Priest in 10 mans. I'd assume your numbers would be lower but perhaps healing might be easier and there would be less deaths. Thoughts?

I would argue going UBER mastery would be better with a Disc Priest because they are already shielding the incoming damage. Fight fire with fire, shields vs shields. It is already hard to get raw healing in with shields. So the best way to combat more wasted heals is more shields. Thus Shields > All. Those are my 2 cents on that. Unless of course you think your Divine Light direct heal will beat your Disc Priests atonement smart heal to your intended target!!

[Kyaza]

@ Bouchbagette

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question about stat weights.

It's interesting to see that as ilvl increases, Int gains strength, but as it decreases, Mastery gains strength. That inverse relationship between them is kinda weird to me, but that's just because I'm not a strong math person.

As for judging another hpally-- I know it's important to add a lot of things together in order to get a full picture. I just get annoyed when people start making blanket statements like "No heroic progression means you're bad" towards anyone. Because it's inaccurate. Then again, I guess generalizations tend to be inaccurate anyways :P

[Lucyrotten]

As for judging another hpally-- I know it's important to add a lot of things together in order to get a full picture. I just get annoyed when people start making blanket statements like "No heroic progression means you're bad" towards anyone. Because it's inaccurate. Then again, I guess generalizations tend to be inaccurate anyways :P

It's not that anyone honestly thinks you're bad (most likely). It's just that being able to spout about the class and mechanics and how this stat or that stat or ideal rotation, etc. applies to raiding heroic content coming from normal mode raider doesn't feel like it's coming from a peer.

When I'm talking to other paladins about my class, I want to be able to talk about them in context of current content and you (and other normal mode raiders) are not doing the same content I am. The bosses have the same names but the way we have to approach the fights is different.

I don't think you're a bad paladin for doing the content you do, I just don't think you have anything to offer me in that context.

[Kyaza]

It's not that anyone honestly thinks you're bad (most likely). It's just that being able to spout about the class and mechanics and how this stat or that stat or ideal rotation, etc. applies to raiding heroic content coming from normal mode raider doesn't feel like it's coming from a peer.

When I'm talking to other paladins about my class, I want to be able to talk about them in context of current content and you (and other normal mode raiders) are not doing the same content I am. The bosses have the same names but the way we have to approach the fights is different.

I don't think you're a bad paladin for doing the content you do, I just don't think you have anything to offer me in that context.

I get where you're coming from and I don't have a problem with someone I don't know not listening to me. :P

It's only the people who I've known for a good while that start ignoring me that bother me.

I have a friend who is 10/14 hc and was specced EF and spamming LoD. Using that playstyle in that manner is wrong at all levels of content.

Also, I'm aware that heroic bosses and normal bosses tend to be so different from one another that they might as well be different fights.

That doesn't mean that having LoD as your top heal when you're specced into EF is acceptable, though. :P

[Deleted]

Basically, heroics should be harder. Because when there are hpallies who can go 14/14 HC spamming LoD on every fight while they are specced into EF, it's pretty obvious that the content is too easy.

A couple of weeks back I did exaclty this on my paladin on Thok heroic and I would of gotten a top 5 rank if I didnt already have rank 1 on that fight. If you think logs have anything to do with skill or good play you are clueless.

The content should be hard enough that no one can be carried through it.

I hate to break it to you but players in Method are also getting "carried" by your definition. There is an insane skill gap even in the best guilds in the world and if everyone in a 25 man raid had to be playing perfect for 15 mins straight to kill a boss no one would ever clear the raids.

[nightfalls]

A couple of weeks back I did exaclty this on my paladin on Thok heroic and I would of gotten a top 5 rank if I didnt already have rank 1 on that fight. If you think logs have anything to do with skill or good play you are clueless.

My very best Thok parse was the one where I completely zoned out about the entire first third of the attempt and beyond other (at least 2-3) possibly raid-wiping mistakes forgot to BoP our shaman healer when I was supposed to.

[Xs]

A couple of weeks back I did exaclty this on my paladin on Thok heroic and I would of gotten a top 5 rank if I didnt already have rank 1 on that fight. If you think logs have anything to do with skill or good play you are clueless.


I hate to break it to you but players in Method are also getting "carried" by your definition. There is an insane skill gap even in the best guilds in the world and if everyone in a 25 man raid had to be playing perfect for 15 mins straight to kill a boss no one would ever clear the raids.

Being Selfless Healer and coming into a thread where we're talking about EF spec players spamming LoD just to wave your amazing rankings doesn't really help the discussion at hand.

[Deleted]

Being Selfless Healer and coming into a thread where we're talking about EF spec players spamming LoD just to wave your amazing rankings doesn't really help the discussion at hand.

Im pretty sure I said "I did exactly this" while quoting him saying paladins speccing EF while spamming LoD (I thought I was SH but due to being too tired I had forgotten to respec). Not sure how you could misunderstand that but whatever. I mentioned the good ranks to prove that even bad play can get you good ranks and they mean nothing really. Ranks are more about your setup, asignments , the skill of the other players in your raid and whether or not you choose to cheese.

[Juicyjonny]

I get where you're coming from and I don't have a problem with someone I don't know not listening to me. :P

It's only the people who I've known for a good while that start ignoring me that bother me.

I have a friend who is 10/14 hc and was specced EF and spamming LoD. Using that playstyle in that manner is wrong at all levels of content.

Also, I'm aware that heroic bosses and normal bosses tend to be so different from one another that they might as well be different fights.

That doesn't mean that having LoD as your top heal when you're specced into EF is acceptable, though. :P

To be quite honest, even I did know you and you were talking to me about how to play I would still disregard and take what you say with a grain of salt. You're right about your paladin friend's rotation and playstyle but I feel his voice still carries more weight than one who doesn't have heroics under his/her belt.

[Kyaza]

To be quite honest, even I did know you and you were talking to me about how to play I would still disregard and take what you say with a grain of salt. You're right about your paladin friend's rotation and playstyle but I feel his voice still carries more weight than one who doesn't have heroics under his/her belt.

Eh. You don't know me, so saying that is kinda like um, okay? I don't have heroics under my belt atm because I chose to help a friend with his guild instead of focus solely on progression. /shrug. The people who do know me, on the other hand, keep asking me to come do hc content with them, so your point is kinda moot.

[Lucyrotten]

Eh. You don't know me, so saying that is kinda like um, okay? I don't have heroics under my belt atm because I chose to help a friend with his guild instead of focus solely on progression. /shrug. The people who do know me, on the other hand, keep asking me to come do hc content with them, so your point is kinda moot.

The heroics you've done in the past do not give you the weight to talk about the current state of the class with people who are doing heroic content now. If you go to one of these guilds that wants you for heroics and do the fights then your perspective is more in line with ours. Period.

[Kyaza]

The heroics you've done in the past do not give you the weight to talk about the current state of the class with people who are doing heroic content now. If you go to one of these guilds that wants you for heroics and do the fights then your perspective is more in line with ours. Period.

Eh. If I wanted to talk about things like the best time to use CDs or the best way to handle a certain heroic boss, I'd agree with you 100% because I know those things change from normal to heroic. And I haven't done heroic so it'd be pretty dumb to be like "hey, you should use this cd during this phase" or "this talent is better for this fight b/c of this" to someone doing a heroic fight that I'm doing on normal.

But that's not the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the very basic stuff, like not spamming LoD while specced into EF.

That's not even OK in normal.

Pretty safe bet that it's even worse to do it in Heroic.

That's the stuff I'm talking about.

Not fight strats, not proper cd usage, or anything else unique to heroic.

[nightfalls]

I'm talking about the very basic stuff, like not spamming LoD while specced into EF.

Easier to say than do when all you heal is easy content. That's why people don't take you that seriously.

Again I completely agree that factually you might be right and others wrong, but try to see things from others' perspective than just get annoyed when (surprise) you aren't taken that seriously.

[Kyaza]

Easier to say than do when all you heal is easy content. That's why people don't take you that seriously.

Again I completely agree that factually you might be right and others wrong, but try to see things from others' perspective than just get annoyed when (surprise) you aren't taken that seriously.

Let me reiterate this: The only time I get annoyed is when I'm talking to friends.

I don't expect anyone else to take me seriously ;P

Like I said before, I get where you guys are coming from. I'm not doing heroic. That means my words aren't as weighted as the words of those who are.

I'm fine with that, in the overall scheme of things.

Like I said before, the only people I get annoyed with are my friends.

I mean, Voidspark, I wouldn't look at your logs and try to analyze them and tell you what I thought you could do better, for two reasons:

1. I haven't done the bosses on heroic. Therefore looking at a heroic log in-depth isn't going to tell me anything except how much healing you did, what spells were on top for you, and when you used your cds. That isn't really enough for me to go off of to be able to reliably evaluate those logs except at a : Was LoD used with SH properly? or Was LoD spammed with EF specced? type of level. I already understand that.

and

2. We aren't friends. I've had one of my hpally friends in heroics ask me to look at her logs and my general response is "I can't really tell you if you did anything wrong, b/c I haven't done the boss on heroic."

So I get where you're coming from and I actually agree with you, for the most part. But again, you're not my friend, and I don't expect you to take me seriously. But I have the right to expect my actual friends to take me seriously, for the very fact that we are friends and that friendship indicates that a level of respect should exist between us.

So I guess my frustration was more of a friend not being a good friend, rather than a hpally not listening to my advice. >.>

[blackpink]

Hey so I have RF shoulders and RF gloves but last night I got 553 ilv gloves and 553 ilv shoulders. Is it worth it to use these or should I keep my 2 pc?

[Deleted]

Eh. You don't know me, so saying that is kinda like um, okay? I don't have heroics under my belt atm because I chose to help a friend with his guild instead of focus solely on progression. /shrug. The people who do know me, on the other hand, keep asking me to come do hc content with them, so your point is kinda moot.

Can you please drop this, you've consumed the thread for three or more days with this now. No one cares what content you do to be honest or how you play. If it bothers you that much that people are not listening to you then save your breath and stop giving advice where it isn't requested. I'm not saying that because I think you are wrong or right, I'm saying it because people don't have to listen to your advice, or play like you do, or anything els. They are probably ignoring you simply because you're being annoying and overbearing despite the fact that you probably have the best intentions but haven't a clue when to stop and mind your own business.

If you feel you're good enough to kill heroics then go do it

P.S. For what it's worth when I come on this forum to ask a question I'm wanting to hear from the Pally's who have killed current content because that's what I'm in and need advice on. Not from someone who killed a heroic boss last tier and hasn't a clue what kind of damage or abilities I'm dealing with on heroics now.

[Clrg]

Please stop beating the dead horse..i think is enough.

Hey so I have RF shoulders and RF gloves but last night I got 553 ilv gloves and 553 ilv shoulders. Is it worth it to use these or should I keep my 2 pc?

Link the offset items and if you are using EF or SH.

[blackpink]

Link the offset items and if you are using EF or SH.

Gloves: http://www.wowhead.com/item=103818
Shoulders: http://www.wowhead.com/item=103943

RF Tier shoulders and gloves. I use EF.

[Xs]

Gloves: http://www.wowhead.com/item=103818
Shoulders: http://www.wowhead.com/item=103943

RF Tier shoulders and gloves. I use EF.

Use tier unless you have serious mana problems

[bouchbagfett]

Hey so I have RF shoulders and RF gloves but last night I got 553 ilv gloves and 553 ilv shoulders. Is it worth it to use these or should I keep my 2 pc?

I looked into valuing our 2pc. My best math efforts resulted in the following table:

Looks like you are better of with the improved item level unless you go Selfless Healer. I have more written about it here.