I don't understand there being no gear progression in an MMO

[Hinastorm]

Recently i've been pondering GW2 more and more, and the lack of an endgame gear progression is very irksome to me.

(I know there are similar threads in this forum, i've read them, I hope to add something with this post)

At first I thought GW2 had little to no endgame content, but I stand corrected in that regard. The explore mode dungeons, Orr, legendary weapons, big max level DE's etc...There is indeed quite a bit to do at level 80.

But....why?

Explore mode dungeons drop vanity gear, the legendary weapons are no better stat wise then similar level weapons ( but take a much much longer amount of time to craft). There may be some gear here and there that is slightly better, i'm not 100% sure, and my research has been inconclusive on this.

So...why do I get together a planned, structured group of 5 people, to bang my head against the hardest PvE content in the game. A vanity item? I have no interest in that. Bragging rights? I dont care. Character progression? no. I get nothing but the joy of beating it. The joy of beating it is great, but it has no replay value, and in an MMO, I expect ( and think alot of people expect) alot of replay value.

Is that why there is no sub? because theres no replay value? no "grind" ( I hate the connotations this word brings, but it is a very important part of the mmo formula)

I want to be interested in GW2.. I really do, I love trying new MMO's. I just don't think theres anything for me here in the longterm. In the shortterm, yes.

To me, it doesent even seem like GW2 is an MMO at all, in the traditional sense. If there is no character progression, there is no MMO, imo.

[Orist]

To sound cliche, but maybe the game just isn't for you. For some people, the joy of getting a group together and "banging their head against the hardest PvE content in the game" is fun. Thats simply, it. Why do I play Orcs must die after unlocking everything, or Magic the gathering after getting my decks made, or anything similar? Its because I enjoy playing the game. There is a big social aspect to it as well and getting your friends, family, and guildies together to do stuff, even stuff thats hard, IS the point. Now, it might not be for you, and thats fair. There are other MMOs that have exactly what you're looking for, I hear Rift is especially good in that regard.

[Awe]

So...why do I get together a planned, structured group of 5 people, to bang my head against the hardest PvE content in the game. A vanity item? I have no interest in that. Bragging rights? I dont care. Character progression? no. I get nothing but the joy of beating it. The joy of beating it is great, but it has no replay value, and in an MMO, I expect ( and think alot of people expect) alot of replay value.

It is you. I spent around 2000 hours in GW1 PvE and there was no grear progression there as well. You could also level to cap (20) in few days. I like doing achievements, getting vanity gear etc. For me there is no difference if my rare weapon gives me better stats or not. The fact alone that it is rare is enough. Its like a collector item. I am collector and completionist. For me GW has replay value. If you find the only way of progression in upgrading your gear stats, GW might not be a game for you. At least in PvE.

[visovari]

I was a little apprehensive but the good thing about it is that PvP is competitive - it is no longer about who grinded for 16 hours a day every day having a substantial advantage - now its about getting a good guild, getting on vent/mumble and using skills.

[Kolo]

It's really hard to believe it but maybe ArenaNET wants you to play the end game because it's fun and possibly different each time you do the dungeon depending on how you and your group choose to play it. When I ran with a group in D2 it wasn't because I wanted new loot but rather because I enjoyed playing with them and power leveling characters together and smashing through endless cows and pvping together. Loot was cool but it wasn't everything and it certainly wasn't a major thing.

[Hinastorm]

It is you. I spent around 2000 hours in GW1 PvE and there was no grear progression there as well. You could also level to cap (20) in few days. I like doing achievements, getting vanity gear etc. For me there is no difference if my rare weapon gives me better stats or not. The fact alone that it is rare is enough. Its like a collector item. I am collector and completionist. For me GW has replay value. If you find the only way of progression in upgrading your gear stats, GW might not be a game for you. At least in PvE.

Maybe you're right. Like I said, no interest in achievements or vanity items, at all. It seems the game was built with a different sort of player in mind.

[Rakeer]

well maybe this will help you understand. For me, once I reach level 80 I will have acess to the entire game, no restrictions. If I want to go somewhere and do something, then ill do it. feel like a dungeon, ill do a dungeon. I feel like crafting, well ill gather mats and craft. for me, end game just means you have all the game

[DrakeWurrum]

Single-player RPGs never have infinite gear progression. I don't understand how MMOs decided to go for it.



Frankly, if people can still enjoy LoL, the Halo games, Battlefield, CoD, CS, chess, games like Super Smash Brothers and Mortal Kombat, and more... without having real progression. Why can't people enjoy this?

Besides, you still get extrinsic rewards, they're just cosmetic. Don't disregard cosmetic rewards just because they don't seem worth it in other games.

[Fencers]

Well, there is actually gear progression. There is simply a hard ceiling on gear power. At the maximum gear power level what changes is how the gear is statted.

I have not played World of Warcraft in years. So forgive me if this comparison is no longer current in WoW: GW2 max stat gear is like WoW's top tier gear- all the same iLevel but stat weights depending on purpose.

Such that a ilvl80 heavy armor piece might be more suitable for a crit-centric rifle warrior, another piece more suitable for a greatsword shout based Warrior, etc. Because the game has no hard role enforcement, one conceivably would want a number of different sets not just for looks but differnt stat weights.

Read your whole post but these are the interesting bits:

I get nothing but the joy of beating it. The joy of beating it is great, but it has no replay value, and in an MMO, I expect ( and think alot of people expect) alot of replay value.
<snip>
Is that why there is no sub? because theres no replay value? no "grind"
<snip>

Have to keep in mind that ALL of the Guild Wars games, 5 in total now are casual play focused. There is replay value measured by other means; achievements, vanity gear, PVP ranks, titles, pets and so on.

Part of the "no forced grind" philosophy is such that players are meant to pick up & play or drop anytime. So if one wanted to play an hour per day, a few times per month, just hang out to chat or go after every tiny achievement- the game doesn't incur a penalty from not playing.

Yes, that is why there is no sub fee. Yes, that is why the power ceiling is relatively low/fixed. Yes, that is why PVP is given such prominence in the design, etc.

Guild Wars is a casual game franchise.

I would advise to approach the game as a single player or sandbox RPG. Pay once, enjoy it for what it is and move on when bored. Or pick up again when bored.

[DrakeWurrum]

The "joy of beating it" is what you get from WoW, too, every tier.

This isn't the last thing of GW2 you will ever see. There's going to be expansions, and the current expectation is once every year.
GW1 did a new campaign every 6 months.

And these new content things being put out is the equivalence of Blizzard releasing MoP only 6 months after Cata launch.

[Gephyrophobia]

Why get together with a group of friends to "bang your head against the hardest PVE content" in WoW just to get extra numbers?

You get together with a group of friends in any game to have fun. That's why I play Halo, that's why I play WoW, that's why I play any multiplayer game. By definition the game has plenty of "replay value" as you can replay the entire 1-80 experience with a different story and playstyle, like any other multi-class story driven game.

[lordjust]

In GW2 there is endgame and there is gear progression but not as heavy than in other MMOs. GW2's focus is PVP and therefore you have only very little gear progression so that you still get a little better and have the feeling that playing the game is worth it and on the other hand the improvements are so marginal that you won't be overpowered in PVP. In PVE it's the same. You do PVE because you like to do it and not because you're forced to do it and you get items that have better stats and have a unique look so that you can show of what you have achieved in the game. With crafting it's the same. Legendaries have a special look and improved stats. They are better than every other weapon in the game but only so little that it won't make a huge difference if you have one or not.

There's everything you knew from other MMOs but with the focus on what most people is important. It focuses on playing what you like in the game. There is gear progression but it has so little impact that you could ignore it. So you can do everything in the game without being locked out because you don't have good enough gear.

The game rewards everything you do in the game and it is awkward at the beginning that you wear the same gear for like the first 10 levels but you will see that you didn't do something wrong and that's no mistake that you are wearing the same gear. Some else maybe have better gear with better stats and a prettier look but you can still be better than the other person because you're just the better player who understands his class and the game better.

I think it's a good and fresh approach towards the MMO sector with a more open, non-linear way of progression through the game where you really only do what you want without falling behind everyone else.

[melodramocracy]

It has character progression, gear progression, etc, all starting at level 1.

You need to look at the game differently than what you're used to, is all it really boils down to. And if you aren't willing to do that, then you will continue to be let down by it.

[DrakeWurrum]

Why get together with a group of friends to "bang your head against the hardest PVE content" in WoW just to get extra numbers?

Exactly. Would rather do it to kill the boss. Gear progression just complicates things and forcibly drags out content longer.

[Fencers]

Most MMOs have progression form level 1 onwards. It's pretty clear the OP is speaking on post level cap progression. Not sure how useful it is to bring up, "progression begins at level 1!" w/r/t GW2 and the vast majority of MMOs. As that statement can factually be made about hundreds of MMOs out there.

As a side note: A few other MMOs offer lateral progression post level cap or no true level progression. Yet still have a stat/gear upgrade cycle. Food for thought.

[Wynnyelle]

It sounds like you just prefer the gear progression model to me. Back when I still played WoW I didn't play it for the gear or for getting the biggest and best numbers. I played it because I liked it and the whole point of playing a game is to just enjoy the ride. I personally don't feel the need to be rewarded for playing a game if I have a good time just playing it, but getting something out of it is a nice touch (I'm looking forward to collecting some badass armor in GW2! Some of the sets look great). Other people are different though and like to have something to show for their time invested. The game isn't for everyone.

[ghostprotocol]

Recently i've been pondering GW2 more and more, and the lack of an endgame gear progression is very irksome to me.

(I know there are similar threads in this forum, i've read them, I hope to add something with this post)

At first I thought GW2 had little to no endgame content, but I stand corrected in that regard. The explore mode dungeons, Orr, legendary weapons, big max level DE's etc...There is indeed quite a bit to do at level 80.

But....why?

Explore mode dungeons drop vanity gear, the legendary weapons are no better stat wise then similar level weapons ( but take a much much longer amount of time to craft). There may be some gear here and there that is slightly better, i'm not 100% sure, and my research has been inconclusive on this.

So...why do I get together a planned, structured group of 5 people, to bang my head against the hardest PvE content in the game. A vanity item? I have no interest in that. Bragging rights? I dont care. Character progression? no. I get nothing but the joy of beating it. The joy of beating it is great, but it has no replay value, and in an MMO, I expect ( and think alot of people expect) alot of replay value.

Is that why there is no sub? because theres no replay value? no "grind" ( I hate the connotations this word brings, but it is a very important part of the mmo formula)

I want to be interested in GW2.. I really do, I love trying new MMO's. I just don't think theres anything for me here in the longterm. In the shortterm, yes.

To me, it doesent even seem like GW2 is an MMO at all, in the traditional sense. If there is no character progression, there is no MMO, imo.

There are generally two groups of mmo-players, the item-meta gamers and the challenge/difficulty gamers. You will notice over the last few years that the current mmo king has been gradually moving towards the former, the item-meta gamers. They changed the game to a point where there is less emphasis on difficulty and more on vanity items, high end items, transmorgrification and pets/mounts.

A game like GW2 won't appeal to you very much if you're all about collecting items, challenge isn't your goal if having the best gear is your only motivation.

[DrakeWurrum]

Most MMOs have progression form level 1 onwards. It's pretty clear the OP is speaking on post level cap progression. Not sure how useful it is to bring up, "progression begins at level 1!" w/r/t GW2 and the vast majority of MMOs. As that statement can factually be made about hundreds of MMOs out there.

As a side note: A few other MMOs offer lateral progression post level cap or no true level progression. Yet still have a stat/gear upgrade cycle. Food for thought.

I'm still hoping ANet does not increase level cap, as it would result in a form of gear progression tiering. The only way I could see them pulling it off is if even owning the base game allowed you to hit max level.

[melodramocracy]

Most MMOs have progression form level 1 onwards. It's pretty clear the OP is speaking on post level cap progression. Not sure how useful it is to bring up, "progression begins at level 1!" w/r/t GW2 and the vast majority of MMOs. As that statement can factually be made about hundreds of MMOs out there.

As a side note: A few other MMOs offer lateral progression post level cap or no true level progression. Yet still have a stat/gear upgrade cycle. Food for thought.

True. I guess the way I should word it is: in just about any modern MMO, there's a set, and limited amount of "stuff" you can accomplish. Throw the level numbers away for a moment, and content is simply content.

My argument about this game in particular, and what may set it apart, is that level scaling keeps the content at least somewhat interesting for a far longer amount of time than in a typical MMO, where you will quickly outlevel areas. Content that can stay relevant makes the game seem larger than it actually may be.

Then again, I cut my teeth on an MMO that really did have no endgame aside from grinding mobs endlessly, a level cap that was so high that only a handful of folks per server ever even saw it (and it really didn't matter anyhow), so... If a game is compelling to play, the numbers associated with your character really are irrelevant.

[Keldrath]

For most players that raided in games where there was tier based gear progression. you basically were done with the old content and when new content came out you wanted to do it. How do you beat the new content? well you geared up for it.

Gear progression was always a means to an end, not an end in itself. because GW2 removes the power creep from the equation players don't have to go through the process of gearing up to do the content. they can just go do the content. And with the power plateau on gear it allows the developers to tune the content in such a way that it is challenging, without it being able to be trivialized and also without it having to trivialize all other content in the game.

This really is a superior model, you just have to change the way you think a little bit. when you really dig into it, you see that there was a lot more downsides to the old standard method that this one completely avoids. and that you really probably didn't like tiered gear progression for the reasons you think you do.