Magic: the Gathering: the Thread

[Radux]

Well, I do run with 2x Fire Servants in my burn deck. So a lot of the merit of the card used (instant/sorcery) will likely depend on a plethora of factors.

I mean... as it is I already run with 9 (including the two elementals) creatures. Could be deemed as high unless you're specifically going for an elemental burn (like Ball lightning's) or Goblin or whatever.

[Pendulous]

More new cards.

Blightcaster. Odd to see an enchantment effect in black, but it's pretty damn powerful.

Haunted Plate Mail. It's like the living weapons, but better. It can be a 4/4 at any time. Pretty damn sweet.

Tidebinder Mage. Not sure I'm digging these anti-two-color cards. Too situational.

[Dontrike]

It feels expensive for a flat burn deck. Too bad it only works for instants and sorceries. I wanna use it with Searing Meditation

It also works with red planeswalkers, it is just too bad that that only non-Chandra walker with damage is Ajani Vengeant.

[Pendulous]

It also works with red planeswalkers, it is just too bad that that only non-Chandra walker with damage is Ajani Vengeant.

Sorin Markov has a 2 point burn

[Dontrike]

Sorin Markov has a 2 point burn

I should have put red non-Chandra walker. I did forget about Ral Zarek and Tibalt, although no one wants to play Tibalt.

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New cards.

The human is quite amazing and will see some play in Naya Humans for the next 3 months. It is also surprising that it's creature type is just Human.

The Zombie is definitely decent, at the least.

The enchantment needed to cost 5. Right now it is barely playable in Commander.



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New cards and such.

The wurm is alright, nothing too great.

The land is a worse Tectonic Edge, but it might still see some play.

Barrage is a lot of utility.

Skeleton has a better regenerate.




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I always enjoy Friday Nights.

[Pendulous]

Barrage is awesome. Like a mini Siege-Gang Commander. Half the mana, half the damage. And it's only one mana itself.

Tenacious Dead is like Reassembling Skeleton, if you had to pay the mana when it died, and not anytime you wanted. It balances out by being only one mana.

The wurm is ok, but an effect that makes more sense in white nowadays. Green isn't very big on life gain anymore.

[Eroginous]

The Lorwyn 5, and especially Jace, are pretty much their mascots for Magic. As for why Jace is the poster boy himself and WotC focuses on him more, I have no idea.

Planeswalkers are the worst designed cards ever printed. They are either godly or trash (most of the time trash), and it shows that Wotc doesn't learn from design mistakes in cycle cards.

[Rendia]

Barrage is awesome. Like a mini Siege-Gang Commander. Half the mana, half the damage. And it's only one mana itself.

Tenacious Dead is like Reassembling Skeleton, if you had to pay the mana when it died, and not anytime you wanted. It balances out by being only one mana.

The wurm is ok, but an effect that makes more sense in white nowadays. Green isn't very big on life gain anymore.

Who runs mono color decks anymore though? GW is a very normal combo of colors.

[Dontrike]

Planeswalkers are the worst designed cards ever printed. They are either godly or trash (most of the time trash), and it shows that Wotc doesn't learn from design mistakes in cycle cards.

Except right now there is no walker that would be considered "godly". Even Gideon 2 is used in Esper Control because it is decent and that is standard. In Modern and Legacy there are even less walkers because of the quality of the older cards which means that they are a lot less "godly" than you think. The only one that I would consider trash is Chandra Ablaze and Tibalt.

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Who runs mono color decks anymore though? GW is a very normal combo of colors.

RDW, Elfball, White Weenies, and Mono Green Stompy are about the last mono colored archtypes that exist with the last one rarely ever being viable, WW only being viable every so often, Elfball needs the elves to do it, and RDW is always a deck.

I fully await the block that supports more monocolored strategies.

[Snorkle]

Well, LotV ad JTMS are pretty awesome in their parts, and one is standard legal and seen in all formats... How would you define godly?

[Dontrike]

Well, LotV ad JTMS are pretty awesome in their parts, and one is standard legal and seen in all formats... How would you define godly?

Unlike Jace 2, Lilianna doesn't go into every deck that contains black as you really need to take advantage of her first ability like flashback, reanimation, or because you have no cards in hand. She is good, that is for damn sure, but godly I think not. Look at Jace 2 for godly, he warped Standard after BBE left, which was the reason he wasn't used suring ALA/ZEN standard, banned in Modern (plus Extended during the time Extended was around) although I think it is the time to lift the ban, and his abilities don't really need any specific deck to take advantage of and he is almost never a bad play.

In all honesty I think Gideon 1 did more during his stint in Standard than Lilianna ever has, but there is no denying that Lilianna is better all around and sees plenty of play in all formats.

[Eroginous]

Except right now there is no walker that would be considered "godly". Even Gideon 2 is used in Esper Control because it is decent and that is standard. In Modern and Legacy there are even less walkers because of the quality of the older cards which means that they are a lot less "godly" than you think. The only one that I would consider trash is Chandra Ablaze and Tibalt.

I don't see how this disagrees with my statement: planeswalkers are the worst designed cards ever printed.

[Dontrike]

I don't see how this disagrees with my statement: planeswalkers are the worst designed cards ever printed.

Why is that?

[Snorkle]

Unlike Jace 2, Lilianna doesn't go into every deck that contains black as you really need to take advantage of her first ability like flashback, reanimation, or because you have no cards in hand. She is good, that is for damn sure, but godly I think not. Look at Jace 2 for godly, he warped Standard after BBE left, which was the reason he wasn't used suring ALA/ZEN standard, banned in Modern (plus Extended during the time Extended was around) although I think it is the time to lift the ban, and his abilities don't really need any specific deck to take advantage of and he is almost never a bad play.

In all honesty I think Gideon 1 did more during his stint in Standard than Lilianna ever has, but there is no denying that Lilianna is better all around and sees plenty of play in all formats.

Ehm... eh... Dontrike, there are more decks using LOTV than decks using JTMS! :/ Most decks with blue do NOT use JTMS in legacy...

Are we looking at the same thing here ? >_<

Anyway, if I were to pick tiers of planeswalker power, I'd say JTMS and LOTV are tier 1, Elspeth the first is alone on tier 2, being seen in some decks in legacy and modern and ajani vengeant, garruk relentless and sorin lord of innistrad are tier 3, with others all being worse off. This of course is measured by seing their presence in non-standard formats as well as in standard.

[Eroginous]

Why is that?

They are designed to be game changing cards, but instead of changing a game once they hit play, they are typically un played (because they are horrible), or they are nuked as soon as they hit play in a competitive environment.

They suffer from 'big creature syndrome' where they have to be extremely OP in order to be viable. In other words, you have to play them for their abilities you can use as soon as they hit the board, and those abilities have to be very powerful.

Mistakes Wotc made when designing them:

1. Giving them a mana cost.

2. Treating them like a player.

3. Allowing them to be attacked directly.

4. Allowing them to be hit by direct dmg.

5. Tying their survival to loyalty counters.

6. Treating them like 'game finishers' but making a player wait several turns before they can actually use it to finish the game, once it hits the board.

I'm all for adding new things to the game, but the basic design of planeswalkers is atrocious, to the point where they are only rare/mythic rare because they are planeswalkers, and not because they are actually good. The fact they are designed in cycles, where only one or two of them are even playable in a set, further indicates poor design.

In order to accomplish the goal of adding a game changing card type to the game, here's how I would re design planeswalkers:

- No mana cost to play them. Each one should have a different cost based on the color of the card, aligning with the mechanics of that color. This cost should be a 'gating' type cost, where you trade something else in order to bring them out. Ex. Red one could come into play after a player has taken X damage. Or could require you to sacrifice lands. Black one could make you pay life to play it. White one could require you to remove X number of creatures you control from the game.

Mana cost is what dooms some of them to be terrible from the start. If the cost isn't balanced around the typical strategies of a color, the card won't see play.

- They should not have loyalty counters at all. Once in play, they should only be kill-able like other permanents, with cards designed to specifically kill them (destroy target planeswalker, sacrifice a planeswalker, remove target planeswalker from the game, destroy target permanent, ect).

- Their abilities should have mana costs. Whether or not you can use them right away should entirely depend on how much mana you have, and not whether you have 'built up loyalty.' After all, they are already in your deck, they are already on your team, loyalty is presumed at the point you are putting one into play.

- 'Planeswalker' should probably be a creature sub type. Much like Wizard, soldier, or goblin. If anything, planeswalkers should have a P/T and be useful like other creatures.

Those are just my thoughts. I avoid planeswalkers in any of my decks because they aren't really worth using in their current design iteration. Even the best ones are only being used for their first two abilities (which are only useful because they can be used right away). That's a design problem if I've ever seen one.

[Snorkle]

Would that not make them simply overpowered ?

[Dontrike]

Ehm... eh... Dontrike, there are more decks using LOTV than decks using JTMS! :/ Most decks with blue do NOT use JTMS in legacy...

Are we looking at the same thing here ? >_<

Anyway, if I were to pick tiers of planeswalker power, I'd say JTMS and LOTV are tier 1, Elspeth the first is alone on tier 2, being seen in some decks in legacy and modern and ajani vengeant, garruk relentless and sorin lord of innistrad are tier 3, with others all being worse off. This of course is measured by seing their presence in non-standard formats as well as in standard.

Of course Liliana is being played more than Jace because he isn't in Standard and banned in Modern, so yes you have a point, but while Jace was able to be used in Standard he was in every deck with blue, from Mono Blue Artifacts to Caw-Blade. I won't get into how he affected Extended as I have to remind myself the format existed.

Jace is just straight up better and is better as he warps your opponents draws, protects himself by bouncing creatures (as well as his fatesteal taking away problem cards), makes your draws better, and an ultimate that drops your opponents deck to 7 or less, depending on their hand. His extra ability pretty much assures he has something to do. His Brainstorm worked wonderful with fetches at the time as you could put horrible cards at the top of your deck and then shuffle it with the fetch.

Lilianna is definitely powerful, but not as much. She can protect herself through her second ability and her first, but her first can easily take important cards away from you to help protect her, a slightly risky double edged sword, but using her in a deck that can take advantage of her +1 will definitely want her more often, it is part of the reason Innistrad's version of Solar Flare was so good. Her ultimate is great, but not as game ending as Jace 2's.

As for tournament reports I am looking at TCGPlayer's tournaments since April 17 and since Jace is only in Legacy I am going to only refer to the number of wins in that format for both cards, plus Jace never showed up in Modern so she wins right there. Jace currently was in 30 top decks in tournaments over the last 3 months while Liliana only has 26 and at the last Legacy Grand Prix Jace showed up 12 and Liliana 9 times each (card). Not a whole lot of difference for either, but Jace does show up more.

If anything Liliana would be at the low end of god tier for walkers, but I would personally think she is at the highest end of the tier below that. Jace 2 having 4 abilities will just mean he can do more and will always be stronger because of that. If he only had 3 abilities, or even if his Brainstorm cost some loyalty (-1 is where I would see it being fair) then he would definitely not be as strong.

As I said before I think Gideon 1 does more than Liliana as he usually is 8 extra life at minimum (unless dealt with prior to getting attacked), can kill creatures, and can beat your opponents, but I have had a lot more games ruined by Gideon than Liliana so I am bound to be a little more biased. He definitely isn't as good, or good at all, when your opponent has little or no creatures, but he is still 6 damage to the face and harder to remove.

I am definitely not saying she is bad, she is far from that, but Jace is definitely better than her.

I'm all for adding new things to the game, but the basic design of planeswalkers is atrocious, to the point where they are only rare/mythic rare because they are planeswalkers, and not because they are actually good. The fact they are designed in cycles, where only one or two of them are even playable in a set, further indicates poor design.

Some being bad isn't because of bad design from being walkers, but because of color pie restrictions and even the flavor of the character. Part of the reason Chandra/Liliana has been worse off than the other Lorwyn 5 is because of their slice of the color pie and mana cost, combined with abilities that are not worth the cost. Also, Planeswalkers are not designed in cycles, cycles mean the cards involved have a theme of some sort. The only time this could even be true is core sets where they are supposed to represent the basics of each color that they represent.

The best walker, Jace 2, actually didn't even see much play until better cards that were stopping it, like Maelstrom Pulse and Bloodbraid Elf, were finally out of the Standard format and he was just simply a decent walker until that happened. Sometimes they get weaker or stronger depending on the other cards around them. Chandra Ablaze would probably not have been so awful if she was surrounded by cards with Madness, or didn't cost 6 mana.

Part of the reason Tibalt is bad is because of his flavor. He had just awakened his spark, which was also why he cost 2 mana, and was unable to control his power yet. The other being the "random" in his first ability. If it didn't have that he would have gone from the worst walker ever to great.

In order to accomplish the goal of adding a game changing card type to the game, here's how I would re design planeswalkers:

- No mana cost to play them. Each one should have a different cost based on the color of the card, aligning with the mechanics of that color. This cost should be a 'gating' type cost, where you trade something else in order to bring them out. Ex. Red one could come into play after a player has taken X damage. Or could require you to sacrifice lands. Black one could make you pay life to play it. White one could require you to remove X number of creatures you control from the game.

This may sound quite mean, but if you think they are horribly designed now than this would be a new level of horrible. It has been proven time and time again that when WoTC makes spells cost nothing is when things get out of control, from the "untap x lands" spells during Urza's to Phyrexian mana in New Phyrexia, it has always been a problem. Just look at Mental Misstep and how it almost broke Legacy.

It is similar to mana costs. If the cost for that specific walker is too high then they won't be played unless their abilities are amazing, which is another gripe of yours, and even then it won't be worth it, with your examples at least, if you are even the slightest bit behind will only put your further behind, so the walkers abilities need to be even better to make up for that.

Mana cost is what dooms some of them to be terrible from the start. If the cost isn't balanced around the typical strategies of a color, the card won't see play.

This is a big reason for some of them.

- They should not have loyalty counters at all. Once in play, they should only be kill-able like other permanents, with cards designed to specifically kill them (destroy target planeswalker, sacrifice a planeswalker, remove target planeswalker from the game, destroy target permanent, ect).

They have started to do that and making sure that cards like Runed Halo, Oblivion Ring, and Dreadbore are more frequent makes sure that they don't get out of hand. Part of the reason Jace 2 ran amok was because there was nothing even remotely keeping him in check besides Valakut/Primeval Titan, and even then Jace was a large problem.

- Their abilities should have mana costs. Whether or not you can use them right away should entirely depend on how much mana you have, and not whether you have 'built up loyalty.' After all, they are already in your deck, they are already on your team, loyalty is presumed at the point you are putting one into play.

I don't know about you, but if they were not a creature they basically become absurd enchantments that you can continue to spam their abilities until your opponent flops over. What would you put Chandra Nalaar's +1 at (Deal 1 damage to target creature or player)? One mana? Because at anything more than 2 mana it would become unplayable and at 1 she becomes an insane card. What about her ultimate (Deal 10 damage to target player and to each creature that player controls)? If you think taking multiple turns to get an ultimate up and going isn't good then how do you price an ultimate like that so that way you don't have the same waiting, but instead for mana to play it.

If the walkers are creatures than how strong would you put them? Would Tamiyo or Tibalt be as strong as a Giant Spider, maybe less or more? Because Garruk is the burly guy should he be as strong as Primeval Titan or even go as high as Krosan Cloudscraper? How about Karn or even Nicol Bolas?

Having the walker in your deck doesn't mean they are on your team, but that they are willing to help you. Casting the walker is a contract and them getting the crap kicked out of them will lower their loyalty to you because you didn't help them out, this leads to them not liking you anymore, and them up and leaving you.

- 'Planeswalker' should probably be a creature sub type. Much like Wizard, soldier, or goblin. If anything, planeswalkers should have a P/T and be useful like other creatures.

There are design problems here as well.

Does the Planeswalker rule still apply? How should the text read on the type? Planeswalker Creature - <race/class> or Creature - Planeswalker <race/type>.

Do you put the walker's name in any of that like the current model if the PW rule applies?

If the PW rule doesn't apply then would it be similar to the legendary rule where only one of the same name can only exist on the battlefield (or on your battlefield come M14)?

Are you able to change other creature's type to Planeswalker or will it need to be stated much like how older cards used to need that clarification for Legend?

If Planeswalkers are creatures then how do we "fix"/errata the old walkers?

Is Planeswalker still a type of card?

Those are just my thoughts. I avoid planeswalkers in any of my decks because they aren't really worth using in their current design iteration. Even the best ones are only being used for their first two abilities (which are only useful because they can be used right away). That's a design problem if I've ever seen one.

The reason that all walkers are played for their first two abilities is because there is no guarantee that you will even reach their ultimate, either because you used their minus abilities too much or because your opponent simply just crushed it underneath their creature's foot, but then the PW becomes extra life because they didn't attack you, which means they served as increasing your life. You need to make sure that while they are out they do as much as possible. This is similar to why people are using more and more creatures with EtB effects because they want value out of their card before it is gone. Ultimates for walkers are just icing on the cake.

If you want a walker that you can use all of it's abilities you should look at Sarkhan 2.

[Pendulous]

Looks like M14 is finally done being spoiled.

Blood Bairn is a vampire version of Nantuko Husk

Gnawing Zombie is cool, but that activation cost is a little high.

Zephyr Charge. Because, again, Levitation is too strong?

Not a new spoil, but Dawnstrike Paladin, I think, is overcosted. Is it worth one extra mana cost to give a creature vigilance instead of flying?

Soulmender sucks. Instead of tapping a creature every turn for a life, might as well use one of the many creatures that let you gain a life every time a creature comes into play. Better yet, pay one extra mana for Suture priest, and get ready to piss off your friends.

Cyclops Tyrant. Because six mana for a 3/4 with a drawback is a good idea....

[Dontrike]

Should take a look at Mindspark, which is bound to make it's way into whatever RDW this coming standard has to offer.

[Snorkle]

Of course Liliana is being played more than Jace because he isn't in Standard and banned in Modern, so yes you have a point, but while Jace was able to be used in Standard he was in every deck with blue, from Mono Blue Artifacts to Caw-Blade. I won't get into how he affected Extended as I have to remind myself the format existed.

Jace is just straight up better and is better as he warps your opponents draws, protects himself by bouncing creatures (as well as his fatesteal taking away problem cards), makes your draws better, and an ultimate that drops your opponents deck to 7 or less, depending on their hand. His extra ability pretty much assures he has something to do. His Brainstorm worked wonderful with fetches at the time as you could put horrible cards at the top of your deck and then shuffle it with the fetch.

Lilianna is definitely powerful, but not as much. She can protect herself through her second ability and her first, but her first can easily take important cards away from you to help protect her, a slightly risky double edged sword, but using her in a deck that can take advantage of her +1 will definitely want her more often, it is part of the reason Innistrad's version of Solar Flare was so good. Her ultimate is great, but not as game ending as Jace 2's.

As for tournament reports I am looking at TCGPlayer's tournaments since April 17 and since Jace is only in Legacy I am going to only refer to the number of wins in that format for both cards, plus Jace never showed up in Modern so she wins right there. Jace currently was in 30 top decks in tournaments over the last 3 months while Liliana only has 26 and at the last Legacy Grand Prix Jace showed up 12 and Liliana 9 times each (card). Not a whole lot of difference for either, but Jace does show up more.

If anything Liliana would be at the low end of god tier for walkers, but I would personally think she is at the highest end of the tier below that. Jace 2 having 4 abilities will just mean he can do more and will always be stronger because of that. If he only had 3 abilities, or even if his Brainstorm cost some loyalty (-1 is where I would see it being fair) then he would definitely not be as strong.

As I said before I think Gideon 1 does more than Liliana as he usually is 8 extra life at minimum (unless dealt with prior to getting attacked), can kill creatures, and can beat your opponents, but I have had a lot more games ruined by Gideon than Liliana so I am bound to be a little more biased. He definitely isn't as good, or good at all, when your opponent has little or no creatures, but he is still 6 damage to the face and harder to remove.

I am definitely not saying she is bad, she is far from that, but Jace is definitely better than her.

But that is not what you said. You said that "unlike jace, liliana is not seen in every deck that has black".

Thing is, liliana is seen in a higher percentage of black decks then jace is seen in a percentage of blue decks.

ANT, Sneakshow, omnitell, hive mind, UR delver, merfolks, all XYZ delver variants, punishing RUG, etc and this is without going into decks which are barely seen, while conversely, liliana, while being present in less winning decks, is present in black decks in a higher percentage, being absent mostly on XBlade, ANT, TES and shardless bug.

Remember that XBlade is extremely overrepresented now, being the deck that has the most wins AND the most top 16s in recent times...

I'm not saying liliana is as strong as jace. I'm saying that she is seen in more decks with black than jace is seen in decks with blue, because while jace is stronger, it doesn't fit in many deck types.

Oh, and this is just about legacy!