I propose this: Give the raids back to the raiders

[MoanaLisa]

About the same time people such as yourself understand that Blizzard is a business and they will cater to their higher profit margin. Also your gym membership analogy is rather weak. I pay for one and go to a gym not to have fun but to get in shape. Sure there are people who play the game not for fun but to be the best but those people are an extreme minority. By far, the majority of players play the game to have fun. I can assure you that wiping on a boss 60-80 times before beating him is not what the average WoW player will call fun. In fact I would argue that is a masochist in the making.

Kazi, you don't help your side of the argument by calling your opponent "kids". In fact it does quite the opposite.

I would also add that in a gym, the fit don't get to decide who uses the equipment either. And they don't post long screeds about how the equipment used to be better but was dumbed down because of the less fit and that they want it back the way it was. Mostly in a gym, people go about their business without paying a lot of attention to who's doing what. If they're unhappy with the gym, they find a new gym.

As an analogy, it's probably not the best one for making the point he wants to make.

[Kazi]

Kazi, you don't help your side of the argument by calling your opponent "kids". In fact it does quite the opposite.

Just stating an observation because I find it hard to believe that any adult would think in this manner of entitlement.


No, wait. I take that back. There are millions of adults who believe they are entitled to things that they are not. What am I thinking...I just simply forgot what day in age I'm living in.

You're right...retracted. He probably is in fact an adult.

I am telling you what has become of things. I am describing the direction of the game.

Yes, I am entitled.

And dude, we're not delusional. We understand that Blizzard is not going to read this thread and say, "You know what, they are right. Revert all changes since BC!!"

This is, however, a forum. A place to discuss different points of view. See where I'm going with this...

[Cybran]

I would also add that in a gym, the fit don't get to decide who uses the equipment either. And they don't post long screeds about how the equipment used to be better but was dumbed down because of the less fit and that they want it back the way it was. Mostly in a gym, people go about their business without paying a lot of attention to who's doing what. If they're unhappy with the gym, they find a new gym.

As an analogy, it's probably not the best one for making the point he wants to make.

It is perfect, because the gym used to work just fine and have loads of fit and unfit people in it. Until a bald and out of shape lead gym designer decided that the best equiptment that yelled the best results was not used enough. He got rid of the hard to use and challenging equiptment to keep everyone using the same machines and everyone equally out of shape.


When the fit people started asking "Why do you remove our extra weights and settings?" the bald and beady eyed lead gym designer said "More people are unhappy that they are still fat and never get to use all difficult settings on the machines so we sold the extra weights and now everyone is on the same fatness level. If you wanna be in better shape than them shape you are an elitist"

[Deleted]

A point I would like to be made clear regarding Looking for Raid. One, it is not actually raiding. Typically it's group that is formed into a cesspool, the cesspool then zergs a boss. There is no team work, people are usually ignorant to others , sometimes in the most vile ways. It is not about seeing 'content", people can't even say that any more with a straight look on their face. LFR is so players can get loot the fastest, easiest way possible and in turn, have fooled themselves into believing LFR is 'raiding". You will see the worst of people in LFR, you will never ever see the best out of people. LFR is the opposite of raiding. So to be blunt, if you do LFR and have been arguing in this thread about that being your 'raid"...stop it. It is not raiding. Let's stop calling it raiding. Think of a new name. Maybe "looking-to get-loot-easy-while-being-a-dick -to-others". Too long maybe.

It's funny how you point people with bad behaviour in LFR, yet the tone of your post places you on their level, if not worse.
OT: cry more, raiding as you described will never come back. Too bad for you, casuals won and you lost.

[mrwingtipshoes]

Just stating an observation because I find it hard to believe that any adult would think in this manner of entitlement.

Entitlement is NOT a bad thing. Its not bad word. In fact:

Consumers of a product are entitled to be able to use a product or service completely, that is a reasonable expectation.

People are entitled to food, drink and a place to live.

Citizens are entitled to be considered safe and protected by their government.

Employees are entitled to have a safe, non-discriminating workplace.

Stop using the word entitlement as a bad thing when its not. I really hate buzzwords like this.

[Deleted]

There was never any raid that was limited to 1 %, and I'm a bit tired of this constant overexageration that tries to paint this simplistic "Robin Hood against the evil hardcore" picture of the poor masses of 99 % people oppressed by the 1 %.
If you need to constantly twist reality like that, maybe it's because you don't have a very valid point to begin with ?

Well, depends on what we consider limited. The pre WotLK patch arrived on October 14, 2008, and at that time approximately 11 000 people had killed Kil'Jaeden (367 guilds according to Wowprogress and assuming 30 people in each guild having the kill) and the number of subscribers were 11 million. That is actually pretty much 0,1% of the population. For Kalecgos the same number is 4017 guilds (same assumption with 30 people in each guild killing that boss) which makes 1.1% to ever kill even one boss in SWP while it was available and current (March 25th to October 13th, 2008).

So I will twist this a bit and say that 99.9% of the Wow players never saw Kil'Jaeden die before the content patch arrived and 98.9% didn't see any bosses die at all. Hmm... I guess he had a valid point after all.

http://www.wowprogress.com/dungeon/Sunwell+Plateau
http://www.wowprogress.com/boss/Kalecgos
http://www.wowprogress.com/boss/Kil%27jaeden

Looking at WotLK we have 1 082 guilds killing LK 25hc, 11 548 for normal 25, 5 645 for 10 hc and finally 48 504 for normal 10. That is quite a huge difference.

Here are the current numbers on Wowprogress for DS 10 and 25 (can't find LFR but I guess those numbers are way beyond this)

Morchok (10): 30799 (90.32%)
Warlord Zon'ozz (10): 30646 (89.88%)
Yor'sahj the Unsleeping (10): 30709 (90.06%)
Hagara the Stormbinder (10): 30383 (89.10%)
Ultraxion (10): 29796 (87.38%)
Warmaster Blackhorn (10): 29551 (86.66%)
Spine of Deathwing (10): 29497 (86.51%)
Madness of Deathwing (10): 27764 (81.42%)

H: Morchok (10): 25475 (74.71%)
H: Warlord Zon'ozz (10): 15532 (45.55%)
H: Yor'sahj the Unsleeping (10): 20220 (59.30%)
H: Hagara the Stormbinder (10): 13201 (38.71%)
H: Ultraxion (10): 19518 (57.24%)
H: Warmaster Blackhorn (10): 10465 (30.69%)
H: Spine of Deathwing (10): 5782 (16.96%)
H: Madness of Deathwing (10): 5132 (15.05%)

Morchok (25): 2670 (87.08%)
Warlord Zon'ozz (25): 2591 (84.51%)
Yor'sahj the Unsleeping (25): 2600 (84.80%)
Hagara the Stormbinder (25): 2528 (82.45%)
Ultraxion (25): 2166 (70.65%)
Warmaster Blackhorn (25): 2112 (68.88%)
Spine of Deathwing (25): 2070 (67.51%)
Madness of Deathwing (25): 1945 (63.44%)

H: Morchok (25): 1886 (61.51%)
H: Warlord Zon'ozz (25): 1071 (34.93%)
H: Yor'sahj the Unsleeping (25): 1303 (42.50%)
H: Hagara the Stormbinder (25): 1216 (39.66%)
H: Ultraxion (25): 1144 (37.31%)
H: Warmaster Blackhorn (25): 934 (30.46%)
H: Spine of Deathwing (25): 695 (22.67%)
H: Madness of Deathwing (25): 680 (22.18%)

[Lucifer Morningstar]

I keep seeing posts about less people doing raids, that that part is becoming smaller within wow, that we have 3 versions of raids for those who want to do it easy-mode, etc etc etc. Lots of opinions.


This is what I propose:

SNIPPED

LFR = Where people go to see the boss (and some sort of the fight) and get some sort of loot better than dungeons.
Normal mode = Trade channel people go here for fun/loot. " Raiders" just do this reset to unlock HC modes.
Heroic mode = This is for you. Farm it hard, and farm it well.


I myself am in a top 200 ranked guild (playing 2 days a week) and I enjoy the HC content. I don't really care about what other people get because in the end I know I got it before they did. I don't need to show everyone around my server that I am better than they are, I feel good just because I know I was there first.

I also respect those who were there before me, and got to clear it before I did. A lot of people can take weeks off life to become top 10 ranked, and they are dedicated, and that is what I love about them.

[Deleted]

It is perfect, because the gym used to work just fine and have loads of fit and unfit people in it. Until a bold and out of shape lead gym designer decided that the best equiptment that yelled the best results was not used enough. He got rid of the hard to use and challenging equiptment to keep everyone using the same machines and everyone equally out of shape.

More like everyone can set weights adequately for their level of training.
Fit people can still exercise with all the weights if they want. The problem is seeing the fat people exercise at a slower pace somehow made them lazy and unwilling to use the extra weights.

[Quick Ben]

Just stating an observation because I find it hard to believe that any adult would think in this manner of entitlement.


No, wait. I take that back. There are millions of adults who believe they are entitled to things that they are not. What am I thinking...I just simply forgot what day in age I'm living in.

You're right...retracted. He probably is in fact an adult.




And dude, we're not delusional. We understand that Blizzard is not going to read this thread and say, "You know what, they are right. Revert all changes since BC!!"

This is, however, a forum. A place to discuss different points of view. See where I'm going with this...

Then please discuss things as such. And I don't see where you are going. If you think that my entitlement forced the changes in the game, you are delusional. A proposal to make things exclusive (first post in the thread) is nothing but delusional thinking. There is not a chance in hell of something like that happening. Anyone who thinks that it might is delusional. And I don't know what to say about people who actually agreed with him, as if what he said made any sense. Can you please talk to them and tell them that what they should be doing is called "venting" or "QQing" and not "proposing".

[ngc2440]

It is perfect, because the gym used to work just fine and have loads of fit and unfit people in it. Until a bald and out of shape lead gym designer decided that the best equiptment that yelled the best results was not used enough. He got rid of the hard to use and challenging equiptment to keep everyone using the same machines and everyone equally out of shape.


When the fit people started asking "Why do you remove our extra weights and settings?" the bald and beady eyed lead gym designer said "More people are unhappy that they are still fat and never get to use all difficult settings on the machines so we sold the extra weights and now everyone is on the same fatness level. If you wanna be in better shape than them shape you are an elitist"

So is this "the gym" some hypothetical gym you created to try to get your point across or an actual gym? On a side note I am not sure what purpose the gym leader being bald has absolutely anything to do with your story.

[Deleted]

The whole point of this thread is about the "casual" argument of "I Pay $15, therefor I deserve to see all the content". That mentality has brought on a whole shift in the design of end game. This directly affects those of us who loved BC style raiding and the challenge that it presented.

Wait a sec, it wasn't. Please go back and read page one, post one, in this thread. It was quite the opposite to "I Pay $15, therefor I deserve to see all the content".

It was "Give the raid back to the raiders. The others can have their 5 mans - quests - farming - pets - pvp and what not." and a lot of arguments why it should be so. Just saying ...

[Kazi]

Entitlement is NOT a bad thing. Its not bad word. In fact:

Consumers of a product are entitled to be able to use a product or service completely, that is a reasonable expectation.

People are entitled to food, drink and a place to live.

Citizens are entitled to be considered safe and protected by their government.

Employees are entitled to have a safe, non-discriminating workplace.

Stop using the word entitlement as a bad thing when its not. I really hate buzzwords like this.

Yes, there are basic human rights. But without politicizing this to much what I speak of are adult, able bodied welfare recipients who believe they are entitled to a piece of my paycheck.

There was NOTHING stopping people from seeing content in BC except you. How much effort were you willing to put into it.

This, again, in my opinion, is a snap shot of our culture today where people believe they are entitled to things while putting forth no effort.

(just to be clear, I was one of the people who never cleared any T6 or sunwell and barely made it into T5. Never once did I mutter the phrase "I pay too, I have a right to clear that content". I instead learned how to play the game better and kept trying and made as much progress as I possibly could. And I had a freaking blast doing it)

A proposal to make things exclusive (first post in the thread) is nothing but delusional thinking.

Show me where he says to make it exclusive(meaning there is literally no way others can participate) ?? In what manner would a game based around a tiered, progression system "lock" anyone out except those that do not want to put forth the actual time and effort into it to progress further??

[Cybran]

Well, depends on what we consider limited. The pre WotLK patch arrived on October 14, 2008, and at that time approximately 11 000 people had killed Kil'Jaeden (367 guilds according to Wowprogress and assuming 30 people in each guild having the kill) and the number of subscribers were 11 million. That is actually pretty much 0,1% of the population. For Kalecgos the same number is 4017 guilds (same assumption with 30 people in each guild killing that boss) which makes 1.1% to ever kill even one boss in SWP while it was available and current (March 25th to October 13th, 2008).

Do you have any idea how Pre-Launch patches work? 2300 guilds killed Kil'Jaeden before November 13th 2008 when WotLK came out. Kil'Jaeden was killed by so few people because there were no 35% nerfs and content wasn't out for 11 months.

You like to forget to add clarifications like these to keep your agenda?

[Quick Ben]

Yes, there are basic human rights. But without politicizing this to much what I speak of are adult, able bodied welfare recipients who believe they are entitled to a piece of my paycheck.

There was NOTHING stopping people from seeing content in BC except you. How much effort were you willing to put into it.

This, again, in my opinion, is a snap shot of our culture today where people believe they are entitled to things while putting forth no effort.

(just to be clear, I was one of the people who never cleared any T6 or sunwell and barely made it into T5. Never once did I mutter the phrase "I pay too, I have a right to clear that content". I instead learned how to play the game better and kept trying and made as much progress as I possibly could. And I had a freaking blast doing it)

Who the fuck cares about welfare recipients? What are you talking about? We are talking about being entitled in the context of this game. Who cares about the culture as you see it?
And how does your style of play or your mutterings define how I or anyone should be playing the game? How is that the right way?

You are still not getting it. The paradigm is changed. What you assume to be the underpinning of this game does not apply.

Show me where he says to make it exclusive(meaning there is literally no way others can participate) ?? In what manner would a game based around a tiered, progression system "lock" anyone out except those that do not want to put forth the actual time and effort into it to progress further??

Anything that limits people's ability to experience the game is exclusiveness. And to open the gates, let me elaborate. Anything less than how things are right now, is exclusiveness.

[GuiltyCrown]

Do you have any idea how Pre-Launch patches work? 2300 guilds killed Kil'Jaeden before November 13th 2008 when WotLK came out. Kil'Jaeden was killed by so few people because there were no 35% nerfs and content wasn't out for 11 months.

You like to forget to add clarification like these to keep your agenda?

I believe that tBC raid wide nerf that was implemented right before WotLK was along the lines of 60% to 70% nerf on health/damage. But yeah, the nerf was right before the release of WotLK, and Sunwell wasn't out for very long either. . .in that short time Brutalas, or whatever that boss's name was, was too busy destroying many raiding guilds ._.

[ngc2440]

I believe that tBC raid wide nerf that was complimented right before WotLK was along the lines of 60% to 70% nerf on health/damage.

There was a blanket nerf to all of BC raids. Cybran refuses to acknowledge them. "Agenda"s and what not.

[Uvwaex]

Yes, there are basic human rights. But without politicizing this to much what I speak of are adult, able bodied welfare recipients who believe they are entitled to a piece of my paycheck.

We ARE in a severe pixel recession

[Kazi]

Who the fuck cares about welfare recipients? What are you talking about? We are talking about being entitled in the context of this game. Who cares about the culture as you see it?
And how does your style of play or your mutterings define how I or anyone should be playing the game? How is that the right way?

You are still not getting it. The paradigm is changed. What you assume to be the underpinning of this game does not apply.

I was replying to a response from someone who pointed out that we are "entitled" to food and water and shelter etc.

And some welfare recipients are an example of the thinking that you and others have, be it in a game or real life.

"You have something, well I want it too but I don't want to work for it. Give it to me."

[matherl]

raiding got too easy, bring bc back

[padie]

After lvl 5 pokemon became to hard! I couldnt see the full game, and i payed for it! This needs to change! Nerf it all!

Some of you wont be happy until there's an npc at the start of mop granting you lvl90 and the gear to solo any hc 25raidboss.

And i want all the pvp rewards from season 1 till now. Mounts and titles! I pay for this game! I should get it!(Doesnt matter that i dont really pvp, but i should get it)