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  1. #1841
    Deleted
    I have just one question: Is the only reason, the subs drop, the changing raid environment? And if it is not the only reason, how big is the part off the loss?(okay, two questions)

  2. #1842
    Quote Originally Posted by Mudor View Post
    Why not make 5 man dungeons harder? Add enrage timers, less forgiving mechanics and harder trash that requires CC. People will eventually learn to play and we can go back to what it used to be?
    Blizz tried that (You might remember, early Cataclysm ring any bells?), and people walked off in droves, more players left than there ever were hardcore raiders, so it can't be raiding alone that caused it, which means it must have been some difference in the other content that did it, what was changed back then? Blizz tried the "Let's beat l33t sk1llz into them!"-routine, might have been that then, wouldn't you think?

  3. #1843
    PvP players demand stuff like LFR to experience raiding, because they are not good enough. On the other hand, we, raiders, do not ask for easy pvp rewards, achievements and free rating. Do we?

  4. #1844
    Quote Originally Posted by rinleezwins View Post
    PvP players demand stuff like LFR to experience raiding, because they are not good enough. On the other hand, we, raiders, do not ask for easy pvp rewards, achievements and free rating. Do we?
    Sorry buy honor gear that is earned by being killed? As long as you are in a BG you get currency to buy gear, i don't see how that's NOT an easy reward.
    As for prot... haha losers he dmg needs a nerf with the intercept shield bash wtf silence crit a clothie like a mofo.
    Wow.

  5. #1845
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by feangren View Post
    If you don't have time to do it, then don't do it. Simple and easy.
    You don't get to decide that, Blizzard does - and Blizzard would like people that have different priorities to play as well. Simple and easy.

  6. #1846
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    You apparently wouldn't accept everything they could do otherwise you wouldn't be here. If they would go back to TBC style you would be here complaining too because you spend so much time in this game and now it's "not for you" anymore. Then some idiot tells you to "just quit".
    Don't think so, I loved TBC. I'm just not stuipid enough to think my personal preference for rep grinding, lockouts etc is widely shared or even good design.

    That's not a fact my friend, that's you having blind trust in them. If it sucked dick for so many players then why didn't they just quit?
    They did. TBC attracted enough new players that even though people quit it continued to grow subs.
    Trust me subs will drop even more in MoP, that's a FACT! /jk
    I think they will drop even more and not because it's an old game or because new games are coming out. It's simply because Blizzard made wrong decisions.
    I think Mists will be a sleeper. As far as wow content goes, it's the result of years of experience and is abpour as good as it can be, given the seperate markets it tries to cater to.

    But we shall see!

  7. #1847
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    Blizz tried that (You might remember, early Cataclysm ring any bells?), and people walked off in droves, more players left than there ever were hardcore raiders, so it can't be raiding alone that caused it, which means it must have been some difference in the other content that did it, what was changed back then? Blizz tried the "Let's beat l33t sk1llz into them!"-routine, might have been that then, wouldn't you think?
    The problem with what they did is that they changed too much in a short time. No change is bad, too much change is also bad. They should have eased into it. And obviously with all the changes they made during WotLK, especially LFD tool, harder heroics didn't really work. When you had to make your own groups you would more likely play with people of your own "skill level" and you could finish a dungeon on your own pace. Now you get mixed in with all kinds of players, people get annoyed and disappointed way more when they jump into a hard dungeon with noobs or bad players (compared to them) than when you just breeze through the dungeons no matter what. It might be more boring to players who have more experience and/or skill but they get less annoyed, they actually get to finish the dungeons, they don't have to wait hours for replacements etc. and they don't have to carry others as much.
    Let's also not forget that everyone got used to fast easy dungeons. I guess it was quite a shock for a lot of players to go from 10-15 min AoE fests to 30 - 90 min dungeons that required CC. The difference was just too big, no wonder people complained.

    Same with going from TBC to WotLK. What a massive change was that. I think they were lucky they could maintain the 11M subs they gotten during that time. Especially considering the rehashed raids and experimenting with difficulties etc. and TotC which was just shit.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 12:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Don't think so, I loved TBC. I'm just not stuipid enough to think my personal preference for rep grinding, lockouts etc is widely shared or even good design.



    They did. TBC attracted enough new players that even though people quit it continued to grow subs.

    I wonder why you would change something that attracts more customers than you lose. Because they thought "TBC sucked dick for a lot of players"?

    I don't have much faith in WoW. It's never going to be as good or better than it was. Accessibility is not everything you know and there are no facts that more accessibility equals more subscribers. WoW never showed an increase in subscribers when they changed it so drastically to make it more and more accessible/casual. (I know people like to say that WotLK peaked in subscribers but this is just not true. Those subs were there already and the amount of subs only stagnated and then even dropped a little.)

    I hope I am wrong and MoP will gain 10M subs and things will only get better and better.

  8. #1848
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    I wonder why you would change something that attracts more customers than you lose. Because they thought "TBC sucked dick for a lot of players"?
    To make even more money, tobe even more successful.
    I don't have much faith in WoW. It's never going to be as good or better than it was. Accessibility is not everything you know and there are no facts that more accessibility equals more subscribers. WoW never showed an increase in subscribers when they changed it so drastically to make it more and more accessible/casual. (I know people like to say that WotLK peaked in subscribers but this is just not true. Those subs were there already and the amount of subs only stagnated and then even dropped a little.)

    I hope I am wrong and MoP will gain 10M subs and things will only get better and better.
    So do I.

    There is plenty to do out there in pandaland, that's for sure.

  9. #1849
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    Blizz tried that (You might remember, early Cataclysm ring any bells?), and people walked off in droves, more players left than there ever were hardcore raiders, so it can't be raiding alone that caused it, which means it must have been some difference in the other content that did it, what was changed back then? Blizz tried the "Let's beat l33t sk1llz into them!"-routine, might have been that then, wouldn't you think?
    A problem we have is that people are not satisfied with only going through normals as a casual, they want to clear heroics as well.
    Imo blizzard was on the right path in Cataclysm, the heroics was hard but doable. and they were meant to be hard! So if you were a casual and had issues with heroics you should stay in normals.

  10. #1850
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    You would be wrong to cancel, MOP is awesome.
    I thought Cata was awesome too untill I tried it last christmas and leveled to 85 and killed Deathwing in just a week. I would never put all the effort into gearing up, finding a good guild again just to see the same raid with a few extra mechanics. The only things I actually enjoyed from doing harder difficulties is the teamplay, the people you play with and achieving something together. If I want that I can just play any other game. I never really enjoyed the raids after doing it on another difficulty first. You actually have to have that feeling that you progress, that requires a good difficulty and new content that you haven't seen before. You don't get that when there is LFR with insane rewards or when you have to clear normal before you can get into heroic. It ruins raiding.
    I couldn't give a shit if some idiot gets tier tokens from LFR as long as it doesn't affect my experience, atm it does. "Then don't do LFR" or "then do heroic in blue 5 man gear". I'm not going to cripple myself to enjoy a game. And I also have to actually (unlike the assholes in LFR) have respect and consideration for other players when I raid with a guild and even pugs require you to do that to some point so I can't just join a raid naked or something or tell them to not wear their best gear just because I want to. Turning of DS buff works exactly the same. It would result in a lot of hassle to get something done like that. If you are very very very lucky everyone agrees and otherwise you might lose one of your best players and have to start recruiting. Besides that a lot of guilds raid also for competition so crippling themselves makes no sense. There is even competition between the second and third guild of the server months after world first kills.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 01:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    To make even more money, tobe even more successful.

    Stupid to risk that at that time. Why wouldn't you wait untill subs stagnate or start dropping and then do something? For all they knew they could have still been gaining subs with a TBC like expansion right now if they didn't change as much as they did.

    It didn't work very well, so we can agree that these expansions were a failure? That accessibility doesn't mean more subscribers, unlike many people here say is not true and that more accessibility is always better because Blizzard says so.

  11. #1851
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post

    Stupid to risk that at that time. Why wouldn't you wait untill subs stagnate or start dropping and then do something? For all they knew they could have still been gaining subs with a TBC like expansion right now if they didn't change as much as they did.
    Because it's the job of blizzard to make money for it's shareholders, not to shrug as money walks out of the door.
    It didn't work very well, so we can agree that these expansions were a failure? That accessibility doesn't mean more subscribers, unlike many people here say is not true and that more accessibility is always better because Blizzard says so.
    Blizzard also said that difficulty was the way to go.

    And that worked out even worse.

    Maybe the game is naturally declining, but accessibility will prolong that decline and delay the end? And difficulty and inaccessibility will bring the inevitable demise forward. All products have a life cycle, the trick is to know where you are at.

  12. #1852
    The major problem is with giving the raid back to the raiders is that only about 5% of the community raids and blizzard only tries to appease the majority.

  13. #1853
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Because it's the job of blizzard to make money for it's shareholders, not to shrug as money walks out of the door.


    First you say TBC gained more subs than they lost. How is that losing money? You have a winning formula, you are the most popular MMO and you are still gaining subs. LET'S CHANGE THIS SHITTY GAME! Sorry but this makes no sense to me. There is no reason at all to take that risk, it was a big mistake.

    Blizzard also said that difficulty was the way to go.

    And that worked out even worse.

    Maybe the game is naturally declining, but accessibility will prolong that decline and delay the end? And difficulty and inaccessibility will bring the inevitable demise forward. All products have a life cycle, the trick is to know where you are at.
    Uhmmm? You just said yourself that TBC gained more subs than they lost (a lot more (lol) when you look at the numbers). How did difficulty and a steep learning curve work out even worse? If you are pointing at the start of Cataclysm then read my previous comments.

    The game wasn't in decline AT ALL but they still changed it drastically because they thought making the game even more accessible would be even better. It never showed so all I can conclude from that is that they made a mistake and that making the game even more accessible doesn't necessarly mean more subscribers or a better game.
    Let's start blaming sub losses to the "natural decline or life cycle". This is extremely vague, no one can ever know what the life cycle of wow is when they change it constantly. If the trick is to know where you are at then they clearly don't master that trick when they do a 180 at the exact point in time when they gained the most subscribers ever. Like I said no change is bad and too much change is also bad (Blizzard said this also once). Yet they change the game completely in a very short time. Screwing over a big part of their long time customers.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 01:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexxr View Post
    The major problem is with giving the raid back to the raiders is that only about 5% of the community raids and blizzard only tries to appease the majority.
    The only time it's not for only 5% of the community is when raiding gets nerfed to the ground untill it looks/feels like filler content so that players do it because it doesn't really matter anymore, it doesn't take effort anymore so why not? That doesn't really make the game any better.
    Last edited by Gilian; 2012-09-19 at 01:35 PM.

  14. #1854
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    First you say TBC gained more subs than they lost. How is that losing money? You have a winning formula, you are the most popular MMO and you are still gaining subs. LET'S CHANGE THIS SHITTY GAME! Sorry but this makes no sense to me. There is no reason at all to take that risk, it was a big mistake.
    Turn that logic around: they obviously thought the BC design was flawed. So they must know SOMETHING that caused them to want to change it.

    I suggest it's because the vast majority of players didn't raid, and those non-raiders had significant churn. Yes, net subs went up -- but how many people left during that time, balanced (temporarily, since the market is finite) by new blood coming in? We know there are LOTS of ex-WoW players, and only a small fraction of them could have been hardcore raiders.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  15. #1855
    Quote Originally Posted by zeophor View Post
    You still just keep asserting it without providing a reason why you think that. Especially when we have an example for a long time period where Blizzard did exactly the opposite and widened the potential playerbase every single quarter.
    Every single time the game has gotten easier, the subscription numbers increased. Subscriptions were highest during WLK which had the easiest five-mans and easiest raids of whole WoW's history. You really can't be that dumb that you refuse to see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeophor View Post
    Furthermore, increasing accessibility has not widened the playerbase, there are less WoW players today than there were in TBC. So once again, what are you basing this claim on?
    Again for the 200th time:

    Blizzard fucked up and made the game too hard in Cataclysm, they have admitted it many times. That lost them 2M people who came in during WLK and expected more of the same easy game.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  16. #1856
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Blizzard fucked up and made the game too hard in Cataclysm, they have admitted it many times. That lost them 2M people who came in during WLK and expected more of the same easy game.
    Some of us who walked away at the start of Cata came in well before WotLK. I started back in original WoW, and the initial Cataclysm design philosophy was a game breaker for me. I know plenty of others for whom things went similarly. Not all have returned to the game now.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  17. #1857
    High Overlord geekx's Avatar
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    As a midcore raider since TBC i would like to throw my two cents in here. I dont hate the current model of raiding it gets more people in to do the awesome content but it also does water it down. Raids have always been accessible to EVERY player it was your job to find 25/10 other people who you enjoy to raid with. It was never impossible you where just too lazy to seek it out or you didnt care at all about raiding.

    Raiding does not take an entire lifespan to do you can easily clear content on only 8hr/week raid time. I dont know where this misconception of oh hes an elitist and therefore has no life is from its stupid. many of the elitist i know hold jobs have family's and know how to use their free time wisely.

    If you have a very wonky work schedule there are pugs for a reason and if structured properly can and will be just as good as a guild group. People build systems for pugging all the time where you can find groups for current content easily no matter what your schedule is.

    LFR is a good feature but it should not be a lower direct copy of current tier something other than ilvl and loot system should be different. The same goes for heroic raids they are too much like the normals it always feels rehashed and that's why my guild can never keep players in for heroic.

    Believe it or not most raiders i know could care less about being a special snowflake they just want to have fun and the current model just doesn't have enough diversity in raiding content to keep the fun going on long enough

  18. #1858
    Quote Originally Posted by geekx View Post
    As a midcore raider since TBC i would like to throw my two cents in here. I dont hate the current model of raiding it gets more people in to do the awesome content but it also does water it down. Raids have always been accessible to EVERY player it was your job to find 25/10 other people who you enjoy to raid with. It was never impossible you where just too lazy to seek it out or you didnt care at all about raiding.
    The thing is, that kind of hypothetical accessibility just didn't cut the mustard, from Blizzard's point of view. They don't want content that would retain customers if those customers are willing to jump through certain hoops; they want content that will retain customers. Period.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  19. #1859
    High Overlord geekx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The thing is, that kind of hypothetical accessibility just didn't cut the mustard, from Blizzard's point of view. They don't want content that would retain customers if those customers are willing to jump through certain hoops; they want content that will retain customers. Period.
    And i understand this and this is why im not all about burning down the current system.

    I just want minor changes so i dont feel like im doing the same raid just with bigger numbers and from what i see and hear from my small corner of wow im not entirely alone in this.

  20. #1860
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    First you say TBC gained more subs than they lost. How is that losing money? You have a winning formula, you are the most popular MMO and you are still gaining subs. LET'S CHANGE THIS SHITTY GAME! Sorry but this makes no sense to me. There is no reason at all to take that risk, it was a big mistake.
    Might have been a big mistake, but there will be reasons. Imagine you own a restaraunt. For every 8 customers who come in for a meal, 3 of them look at their plates, get up and walk out. You still have 5 customers, who are all completely happy. But 3 people in 8.... that's a lot of potential profit you are watching walk out of the door.

    Wouldn't you try and find a way to get the other 3 to stay and eat?


    Uhmmm? You just said yourself that TBC gained more subs than they lost (a lot more (lol) when you look at the numbers). How did difficulty and a steep learning curve work out even worse? If you are pointing at the start of Cataclysm then read my previous comments.

    The game wasn't in decline AT ALL but they still changed it drastically because they thought making the game even more accessible would be even better. It never showed so all I can conclude from that is that they made a mistake and that making the game even more accessible doesn't necessarly mean more subscribers or a better game.
    Let's start blaming sub losses to the "natural decline or life cycle". This is extremely vague, no one can ever know what the life cycle of wow is when they change it constantly. If the trick is to know where you are at then they clearly don't master that trick when they do a 180 at the exact point in time when they gained the most subscribers ever. Like I said no change is bad and too much change is also bad (Blizzard said this also once). Yet they change the game completely in a very short time. Screwing over a big part of their long time customers.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 01:33 PM ----------



    The only time it's not for only 5% of the community is when raiding gets nerfed to the ground untill it looks/feels like filler content so that players do it because it doesn't really matter anymore, it doesn't take effort anymore so why not? That doesn't really make the game any better.
    I think that sub groth started to slip, then blizzard made the game more accessible (wrath) then subs still declined, so they went partially back to a TBC mentality (harder PVE content) and the subs stopped slowing in growth and started instead to become losses. Quickly blizzard reversed their decision and went back to wrath style access and difficulty. Lo, subs stopped declining as badly.

    Dunno if you played mop but blizzard are being very smart with it. The TBC style gameplay is there, it's just harder to get accidentally be put into (i.e. no queues for challenge modes) and doesn't impact player progression much. They've hived off their hardcores and given everyone else lots to do.

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