Rogues why so many specs

[Deleted]

They must either become unique or be rolled into what already exists

The basics for uniqueness in our specs are already present. They're just not utilized well enough, that is the problem. All our specs have been made sustained dps specs, which is why we all feel they play too similarly. Combat and Sub are indeed a little hard to distinguish between. However, that doesn't mean all 3 specs are completely identical either.

Combat is heavy on auto attacks and the bulk of its damage comes from its Adrenalin Rush. The play-style has you dishing our as many Eviscerates as possible, in order to the reset the cooldown on your Rush. The entire spec is, in essence, built around using your cooldowns, refreshing them as quickly as possible, and repeating the process. Add to this one of the games (if not THE) best cleaves and you have a unique spec.

Assassination is very different in comparison. The abilities cost a lot more energy and the energy regeneration is much lower, giving the spec a distinct feeling. Pooling is actually advised, a feature neither Combat nor Sub make use of. Cooldowns aren't that big a factor here, however, like they are with Combat. It's much slower and heavier. Here's the problem. Poisons are applied via auto attacks, and having your damage come from auto attacks gives the spec more or less the same feeling as Combat, only not as fast paced.

Sub, I will say, is a very problematic spec. It needs a rather serious overhaul, or at least some serious changes. The general rotation is EXACTLY the same rotation as Combat, except with a Sinister Strike that only works from the back. The spec still has bonuses that ooze the concept of "mandatory pvp spec" which all need to go. And the spec actually needs to find purpose once more. Pre 5.0, this was our burst spec. Now, the spec just doesn't really make any sense to have.

Add to this that the abilities used are also the same around the board, meaning there's very little differentiation between the actual commands given to your character, and you have yourself a problem of homogenization.




There are clear differences between the specs. There are clear strengths to each spec. But they have just been utilized SOOOOO poorly and there's been done so little to the class that everything just feels kinda blended together and indistinguishable from the rest.

[Deleted]

OP is entirely correct with his views. It's just another example of how raiding (and specifically the pedantic nerds who cry about small percentages) has ruined the feel of the game. We've basically lost the exciting feel of sub and assassination, and their strengths and weaknesses, just to appease the nerds who want to turn every spec into an auto-attack bot within 1% of each other.

[Deleted]

OP is entirely correct with his views. It's just another example of how raiding (and specifically the pedantic nerds who cry about small percentages) has ruined the feel of the game. We've basically lost the exciting feel of sub and assassination, and their strengths and weaknesses, just to appease the nerds who want to turn every spec into an auto-attack bot within 1% of each other.

That's quite a claim you present us there. Blatantly wrong as well. The rogue community has been very specific in what it wanted for MOP; and less passive damage was AT THE VERY TOP of the list. It was THE most sought after change, and it was denied by the devs themselves.

The devs made the class what it is.
Not the community.

Blame the right people, please.

[Deleted]

We've basically lost the exciting feel of sub and assassination, and their strengths and weaknesses

The term "We" would include me as well, and I assure you that I like the current state of Assa and Sub. Especially assassination is now much more exciting to play, with much less downtime staring at the energy bar filling up. Please refrain from making assumptions about other peoples opinions.

Btw. If it was the game designers will to make Sub am more passive spec: Why does eviscerate no longer refresh Rupture, and why does HemoDoT no longer count as a bleed when it comes to calculate the 30% extra dmg? They streamlined the spec by removing the ridiculous need for an active Recuperate, but if anything they made it more difficult and interesting to play.

[Super Kami Dende]

I think it is mostly because anyone that plays a rogue generally only has enough brain cells to be able to play 1 spec.

And people say DK's are the Babby class.

Oh lawdy.

Mod edit: no need for insults - infracted.

[Deleted]

The term "We" would include me as well, and I assure you that I like the current state of Assa and Sub. Especially assassination is now much more exciting to play, with much less downtime staring at the energy bar filling up. Please refrain from making assumptions about other peoples opinions.

Btw. If it was the game designers will to make Sub am more passive spec: Why does eviscerate no longer refresh Rupture, and why does HemoDoT no longer count as a bleed when it comes to calculate the 30% extra dmg? They streamlined the spec by removing the ridiculous need for an active Recuperate, but if anything they made it more difficult and interesting to play.

I agree and disagree with what you'd do to Sub.

- I would also have the Hemo dot count towards Sanguinary Vein.
- I'd reintroduce the Rupture-refresh on Eviscerate like you, but I'll remove Slice and Dice instead. I want less passive damage, not more. Rupture should only count for about 5% of the specs single target dps and white attacks shouldn't exceed 10-15%.
- Following this, I'd remove Backstab and roll its damage into Hemorrhage. The positional requirement of Backstab is outdated and simply not needed any more.
- I'd remove Master of Subtlety and Premeditation. Subs damage should no longer be tied to stealth; This makes up for very clunky PVE situations. The spec shouldn't lose in lethality just because it's outside of stealth.
- I'd remove Find Weakness from "stealth openers". Instead, FW will be applied by ALL damaging abilities while under the effects of Shadow Dance. This cuts the ties Sub has to Vanish and Prep as dps cooldowns.

The end result would work out like so:
- Hemo as the main builder.
- Eviscerate as a finisher.
- Rupture and a second personal damage buff as buffs/debuffs that need to be maintained.
- Shadow Dance as the offensive cooldown.

These changes serve two purposes:
1. We have no need for yet another sustained spec! We already have two specs that serve that purpose just fine! We don't need a third.
2. Further streamlining the specs dps-rotation by removing its ties to stealth. Sub is no longer our "mandatory pvp spec" but it retains some features from its past as such a spec.

[Sesshou]

As much as I hate our reliance across the board on SnD, I can't ever see them removing it for any spec unless it is replaced by an equally boring and "passive" dps increase mechanic such as say turning the envenom buff into its own finisher to replace SnD for assassination. SnD is so huge at 40% that they would have to give a pretty insane damage boost to hemo/bs/rupture/evis to make up for the white and poison damage in addition to procs. I do think they could at least nerf it down to pre WotLK level (30%) and manage to give us that amount back in special damage.

I also think BS is outdated. It either should just be gone because the positional requirement on your main dps move is stupid, or it should at least allow non daggers so that no matter what weapon you ended up with, you always have at least 2 viable specs (if you happen to have a MH dagger asn/sub if you happen to have a MH something else com/sub). Reason being that we are going to be forced into combat for BF on fights, so at least they could let us have the option of at least 1 other spec on those fights where we aren't forced to spec into 1 thing for 1 ability.

I do love your idea of taking FW away from stealth though. I hate vanishing for dps as much as I hate having to use TotT for my set bonus.

[Deleted]

As much as I hate our reliance across the board on SnD, I can't ever see them removing it for any spec unless it is replaced by an equally boring and "passive" dps increase mechanic such as say turning the envenom buff into its own finisher to replace SnD for assassination. SnD is so huge at 40% that they would have to give a pretty insane damage boost to hemo/bs/rupture/evis to make up for the white and poison damage in addition to procs. I do think they could at least nerf it down to pre WotLK level (30%) and manage to give us that amount back in special damage.

I can dream, can't I? :P
I have several entirely different ideas for Assassination, to be honest, so let's not even go there and just stick to Sub.

Yes, they'd have to increase our "special" damage dramatically to account for the loss of SnD. That's exactly what I want...! My goal is essentially to make a "Frost DK" rogue equivalent. I want a spec with HEAVY focus on special attacks, granting us amazing instant burst damage, even on target swaps, because let's face it, that's just the thing we need. That's the thing we lack.

We could put anything in its place really, it doesn't really matter. Even if it is a boring "20% extra damage on finishers"-buff. As long as it buffs active damage and not passive damage! If it does that, we'll still get an increased amount of special damage. The problem with Slice and Dice isn't specifically that it's boring, it's that it buffs the "wrong place". If, instead of auto attacks, it'd buffs specials.....!

I also think BS is outdated. It either should just be gone because the positional requirement on your main dps move is stupid...

You know... I agree and disagree with you on this point. Backstab shouldn't be removed because it's "stupid". That's mostly a missing the point. The problem with Backstab is that it doesn't really serve any purpose any longer other than building Combo Points. Thus, it has become obsolete. It's a glorified/less useful Sinister Strike and nothing more. Personally, I'd like it to stay, to be honest. But it needs to be reworked. Inspired by Shammies and how their Lava Burst becomes a guaranteed crit if Fire Nova(?) is on their target, I would go about it like so:

Backstab (Hemo rolled into it, positional req. removed)
Awards 1 Combo Point
Instant attack that deals X amounts of damage and leaves a bleed.
If performed from behind an enemy, becomes a guaranteed crit.

It's needs something along those lines! An attack from behind should reward us with SOMETHING. It shouldn't simply be a requirement... just because. THAT, I agree, is just stupid.

Also... You may or may not agree, but there's just something awfully RIGHT about a backstab being a crit.... Wouldn't you say so?

I do love your idea of taking FW away from stealth though. I hate vanishing for dps as much as I hate having to use TotT for my set bonus.

My thoughts exactly. It's just a massive pain in the ass to have dps tied to a defensive mechanic.
Not just that, I was looking over the skills and stuff and I noticed Sub was the only spec to actually not have a dps-cooldown. I mean, Shadow Dance isn't really a dps cooldown, it's a buff, a "mode" if you will. Find Weakness is not a cooldown either, it's a debuff. With MOP, Shadow Dance becomes a cooldown to a certain degree, due to its interaction with Ambush, and my goal was to further strengthen it as a cooldown by adding FW to it as well.

[Pickwickman]

<snip>

Making it an auto-crit from behind would devalue crit by tons, and would still make it pretty much as mandatory as it is on live. Now if instead we followed your first proposition (BS and Hemo in 1) we could better make it that when attacking from behind the Backstab leaves a DoT. This way the DPS increase is noticeable but not overpoweringly high.

[Deleted]

Making it an auto-crit from behind would devalue crit by tons, and would still make it pretty much as mandatory as it is on live. Now if instead we followed your first proposition (BS and Hemo in 1) we could better make it that when attacking from behind the Backstab leaves a DoT. This way the DPS increase is noticeable but not overpoweringly high.

I don't see how the devaluing of crit is a valid argument against such a change. Had a look at Elemental Shammies and their auto-crit mechanic? Or Frost DK's? If it goes for them, why not for us? Nevermind the fact that crit is already considered THE worst stat, class wide for us, now that our passive crit sources are gone(which is kinda ironic, seeing as they were removed in order to make crit more useful... no idea how that went wrong).

Damage, as well, is mostly a non-issue as long as Backstabs damage isn't overdone. Keep in mind, Obliterate and Frost Strike crits easily break past the 100k numbers. Having a Backstab crit for 50k is HARDLY overpowered.

[Kael]

Nevermind the fact that crit is already considered THE worst stat, class wide for us, now that our passive crit sources are gone(which is kinda ironic, seeing as they were removed in order to make crit more useful... no idea how that went wrong).

What lowered our crit value wasn't the +chance to crit but the +crit damage abilities, and the move from specials to passives (crit would have lost a lot in that transition anyway). When was it stated we were going to want crit more because +crit chance was taken out? o.O. I mean, it offsets the loss of +crit-damage and supplements poisons on the melee crit table, but...?

[Deleted]

What lowered our crit value wasn't the +chance to crit but the +crit damage abilities, and the move from specials to passives (crit would have lost a lot in that transition anyway). When was it stated we were going to want crit more because +crit chance was taken out? o.O. I mean, it offsets the loss of +crit-damage and supplements poisons on the melee crit table, but...?

Sorry, I have a tendency to lump both of those together...

It was stated a while back. I think it was GC back when he spend about 2 days replying to rogue concerns. You know the whole, "Rogues are fine, you're were we want you, deal with it"-speech he held, if I remember correctly. They tried to avoid letting us reach a point where crit would suddenly drop in value by removing a good amount of our passive crit. Probably to avoid stuff like reaching 100% crit cap on Ambush/Backstab and so on.

He followed up by saying something ala, "crit is just damage anyway, if we see damage is low we'll just buff you somewhere else."

[Verain]

I agree and disagree with what you'd do to Sub.

- I would also have the Hemo dot count towards Sanguinary Vein.

Honestly, it was a passive boost before, now it's an active one. Why not just remove SV totally and roll that damage into BS and Evis?

- I'd reintroduce the Rupture-refresh on Eviscerate like you, but I'll remove Slice and Dice instead. I want less passive damage, not more.

Rupture-refresh is way more passive than slice and dice. Slice requires optimal refreshing, not just spamming.

Rupture should only count for about 5% of the specs single target dps and white attacks shouldn't exceed 10-15%.

Look man, this isn't frost DK, we aren't built like that. We're weapons masters. All your posts scream frostknight to me, why is that?

- Following this, I'd remove Backstab and roll its damage into Hemorrhage. The positional requirement of Backstab is outdated and simply not needed any more.

It serves as a reason to allow sub's high sustained damage. I dunno, you do that and hemo is just the dot. Now it's rake?

- I'd remove Master of Subtlety and Premeditation. Subs damage should no longer be tied to stealth; This makes up for very clunky PVE situations. The spec shouldn't lose in lethality just because it's outside of stealth.

This is the WORST idea for sub I've EVER read. These are really important sub abilities, and are spec defining. I don't understand why you even spec sub if you hate it this much.

- I'd remove Find Weakness from "stealth openers". Instead, FW will be applied by ALL damaging abilities while under the effects of Shadow Dance. This cuts the ties Sub has to Vanish and Prep as dps cooldowns.

Right, except that that tie is really important for sub. Also note that it keeps shadow step as a dps cooldown, why not eliminate that too? Prep isn't a choice if it offers 0 damage, because step offers a lot more damage than 0.

The end result would work out like so:
you are playing some other class

Wait crap, that's how I read it. Here's what you said:

- Hemo as the main builder.
- Eviscerate as a finisher.
- Rupture and a second personal damage buff as buffs/debuffs that need to be maintained.
- Shadow Dance as the offensive cooldown.

Why "a second personal damage buff" and not "slice and dice"? We already HAVE that buff. But presumably you want some maintenance thing that makes the YELLOW numbers bigger, not the WHITE ones.

These changes serve two purposes:
1. We have no need for yet another sustained spec! We already have two specs that serve that purpose just fine! We don't need a third.

Sub has good sustained and good burst.

2. Further streamlining the specs dps-rotation by removing its ties to stealth. Sub is no longer our "mandatory pvp spec" but it retains some features from its past as such a spec.

"streamline" = "homogenize and take away the one thing that defines sub from every other spec in the whole game"


Basically, I really disagree with every idea you have for sub. I wouldn't mind SV being put up by hemo, but I would also shrink SV to 5% and roll the damage into rupture, backstab/hemo, and eviscerate.

[Pickwickman]

I don't see how the devaluing of crit is a valid argument against such a change. Had a look at Elemental Shammies and their auto-crit mechanic? Or Frost DK's? If it goes for them, why not for us? Nevermind the fact that crit is already considered THE worst stat, class wide for us, now that our passive crit sources are gone(which is kinda ironic, seeing as they were removed in order to make crit more useful... no idea how that went wrong).

Damage, as well, is mostly a non-issue as long as Backstabs damage isn't overdone. Keep in mind, Obliterate and Frost Strike crits easily break past the 100k numbers. Having a Backstab crit for 50k is HARDLY overpowered.

I don't mind the "auto-crit" mechanic.. I mind the "Auto-crit but only if you're behind the target" mechanic. Let's compare it to Black-out Kick from Monks. It's a finisher that leaves a DoT on the target if you do it from behind but heals you if you do it from the front. They have a Glyph to make it do the DoT from every side. But because it is BACKstab we need it to do something good from behind, but it shouldn't be too good because just eating the parries from the front is already bad enough compared to almost all other DPS-specs (poor kitties)..

[Deleted]

I don't particularly mind that we didn't get a full overhaul - they shouldn't fix what isn't broken. Since rogue was the overall most balanced class during Cataclysm (legendary daggers notwithstanding) it makes sense that we get the least updates.

As for merging specs, that just seems like ranting to me. There are sizeable differences in feel and flavor between the three specs and they each have proven time and again to have merit. I would like if all of them could have equal merit in PvE and PvP, but until those two game paths are recognized as such in each skill, talent and glyph (a rather extensive development job Blizzard has already vocally abandoned) I don't see that changing for any class.

Let's wait for the actual expansion and see how things shape up. So far it's looking promising, I think.

[Deleted]

Honestly, it was a passive boost before, now it's an active one. Why not just remove SV totally and roll that damage into BS and Evis?

I wouldn't mind that, actually. I'd prefer using abilities for the sake of using abilities anyway, and not just to "activate that secondary effect".

Rupture-refresh is way more passive than slice and dice. Slice requires optimal refreshing, not just spamming.

Indeed, but was there a point attached here as well? Rupture doesn't do insane amounts of damage. It's nothing compared to the amount of passive damage from Slice.

Look man, this isn't frost DK, we aren't built like that. We're weapons masters. All your posts scream frostknight to me, why is that?

I'm sure at least some part of my post suggested we needed a proper burst spec. Frost DK's are, more or less, the epitome of sustained-burst, that's why I keep mentioning them.

It serves as a reason to allow sub's high sustained damage. I dunno, you do that and hemo is just the dot. Now it's rake?

I'm sorry, are we speaking about the same spec here? Sub's "high sustained damage" is most certainly not a result of Backstabs output. Going with anecdotal evidence, Backstab is roughly doing the damage as Sinister Strike for me, give or take about 3k damage. That's not enough to justify a positional requirement. It simply doesn't pack that kinda punch. In fact, melee attacks SIM to do about twice the damage of Backstab during an encounter.

This is disregarding the fact that dps is generally done from behind a boss anyway! So, in essence, you're not really adding any real challenge or restrictions anyway, apart from locking out the spec entirely on the occasional Ultraxion-esque encounter.

This is the WORST idea for sub I've EVER read. These are really important sub abilities, and are spec defining. I don't understand why you even spec sub if you hate it this much.

I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion before. I'll say to you now what I said then; Stealthing, existing, and restealthing while behind a boss just to optimize dps is not fun, is not intuitive, and is a genuine pain in the ass. I'd very much like you to defend this mechanic, because it quite frankly needlessly complicates the rotation(he said, awaiting the backlash of "noob, l2p, scrub"-ish comments that are sure to come).

Tell me, do you actually PVE as Sub and if yes, do you enjoy doing all that crap?
Follow up question, if both your answers to the above are yes, from a scale from 1-10, how masochistic are you?

Right, except that that tie is really important for sub. Also note that it keeps shadow step as a dps cooldown, why not eliminate that too? Prep isn't a choice if it offers 0 damage, because step offers a lot more damage than 0.

No, it's not and it shouldn't be. Stealth is genuinely useless while in a raid, and you simply cannot defend its use as a cooldown. It serves as nothing but a step backwards, just so the rogue can make use of the secondary effects he gains from it. There's no reason NOT to remove the secondary effects from stealth, a mechanic we don't want to use in a raid environment, and make them more accessible.

Honestly, I've heard conservative bullshit before. But you're taking this to a whole 'nother level.

Also, Shadowstep what...? Last time I checked, all damage components have been removed from it.

Wait crap, that's how I read it. Here's what you said:

In that case, I suggest you grab yourself a pair of glasses.
My "new" list is only short on Vanish, Prep, and Hemo/Backstab(seeing as they've been combined)

Why "a second personal damage buff" and not "slice and dice"? We already HAVE that buff. But presumably you want some maintenance thing that makes the YELLOW numbers bigger, not the WHITE ones.

Well spotted, lad!

Sub has good sustained and good burst.

Rather intriguing. Riddle me this; who's going to dish out the highest amount of damage amongst these classes, against the Blistering Tentacles on Madness; Frost DK, Warrior of any spec, Sub rogue, Destro lock, or a hunter?

To clarify what I mean with burst; I'm not talking about ONE INSTANT of bursting, I'm referring to quick bursts in successions. Sub does NOT have that. It's "burst" is entirely cooldown dependent.

"streamline" = "homogenize and take away the one thing that defines sub from every other spec in the whole game"

No, actually:
"To streamline -
To simplify or organize a process in order to increase its efficiency."

Again, conservatism at its finest(or worst...). Tell me something, how many other classes/specs need to exist combat just to reenter it...? None? Oh. Very well, then. I guess that means the 3x11 (-1) specs of the entire game play completely similarly, and the only truly unique one is and remains Sub. Because without its ties to stealth, there'd be no differentiating between Sub and.. Say, a Fire Mage.

That is, simply put, not an argument.
Difference for the sake of difference is NOT innately a good thing.
The fact that you seem to think so, seems completely nonsensical to me. But to each their own.

Actually, you know what. Why not try selling this idea over at the hunter forums? Let's suggest they need to use their Camo every 30 seconds to optimize their dps. I'm sure they'll be thrilled to FINALLY BE LIKE THOSE BEAUTIFUL ROGUES~~~

Basically, I really disagree with every idea you have for sub. I wouldn't mind SV being put up by hemo, but I would also shrink SV to 5% and roll the damage into rupture, backstab/hemo, and eviscerate.

No, you basically want to feel like that special snowflake in a winter storm. You don't seem to care about efficiency or usefulness, you'd rather have your keyboard layered with needles and tacks because they're pretty and shiny, even though they may not be the BEST things to have lying on your keyboard.

I see you disagree with what I present, which is fine, I anticipated that most people would have their own opinions on this subject. However, you don't counter my suggestions with anything other than "WE MUST PRESERVE WHAT WE CAN. THE DEATH OF OUR PAST IS THE DEATH OF THE CLASS!" And that's quite disappointing coming from you.

As for SV, I'm leaning more towards your previous suggestion of having it removed completely. Having it tied to Hemo would simply trivialize it and so would a huge reduction in its damage. If SV just doesn't "do" enough, it'll risk being what Rupture was for Combat in 4.X. You could use it, but you just wouldn't gain much, and it kinda fell into a drawer of indifference.

[Sesshou]

compared to almost all other DPS-specs (poor kitties)..

Poor kitties my ass. Are you aware that they get a glyph that allows temporary backstabs from the front (almost 30% of the time if you add the uptime on the two abilities, and thats before incarnation)? Check out glyph of Shred. Incarnation also allows them to spam their version of ambush from the front. If you don't know what incarnation for feral does, it is a 30 second shadow dance which also allows the use of stealth in combat and removes positional requirements. Sub is the ONLY spec in the game that gets royally screwed because we can NEVER use out 2 best cp builders from the front: backstab and ambush.

At this point, backstab (and ambush) are the only 2 abilities in the entire damn game with a full time positional requirement, so yes, I think that makes them stupid. In addition to that, backstab is one of three moves that requires a dagger. Both of the others are assassination only. It is completely stupid that everything works fine without a dagger but BS, especially given that originally the spec utilized hemo as its best cp builder. In fact other than our dagger moves, are there any other moves in the entire game that require a specific weapon type other than shields and ranged weapons? Thats about as asinine as black arrow can't be used with a gun (which btw last time I checked, it could be).

@Varian
Please explain to me how vanishing to instantly ambush adds any depth? Now vanish into instant cheap shot has been around in pvp forever. But why is it a defining ability that we vanish and instantly break it? If anything the defining ability is the stealth and disappearance part of vanish, and you make use of neither currently. You just hit it so that you can instantly ambush to apply FW. No one cares about the stealth aspect, and with current tank threat, the 'disappearance' aspect is also mostly useless.

[Deleted]

@Varian
Please explain to me how vanishing to instantly ambush adds any depth? Now vanish into instant cheap shot has been around in pvp forever. But why is it a defining ability that we vanish and instantly break it? If anything the defining ability is the stealth and disappearance part of vanish, and you make use of neither currently. You just hit it so that you can instantly ambush to apply FW. No one cares about the stealth aspect, and with current tank threat, the 'disappearance' aspect is also mostly useless.

It adds depth to my wall, as I slam my head into it every time I click on Vanish without.. actually vanishing, wanting to vanish, or needing to vanish.

[Kael]

@Verain (name fixed
Please explain to me how vanishing to instantly ambush adds any depth? Now vanish into instant cheap shot has been around in pvp forever. But why is it a defining ability that we vanish and instantly break it? If anything the defining ability is the stealth and disappearance part of vanish, and you make use of neither currently. You just hit it so that you can instantly ambush to apply FW. No one cares about the stealth aspect, and with current tank threat, the 'disappearance' aspect is also mostly useless.

I think this whole discussion is fascinating, particularly the idea of stealth and combat, and subtlety. I DO think that vanish/ambush in its current incarnation is terrible; mechanically, you stop attacking to not move and then resume attacking as immediately as possible. You haven't somehow re-introduced the element of surprise, or anything like that. The idea that you vanishing from sight for .02 seconds and generating a longer pause between your melee attacks has exposed a weakness in your opponent's defense is... weird.

I'd LOVE to see stealth baked into Subtlety's DPS rotation -- just not the CURRENT idea/means/mechanics of stealth. Current stealth mechanics just don't mesh with combat well at all. If vanish required a glyph to stop auto-attack and during vanish you wouldn't leave stealth for meleeing and got some damage bonus for being invisible to the enemy-- we'd have a compelling reason to vanish from sight during a real fight (mechanically and from the flavor perspective). I don't have a problem with vanish (as it is) leaving the subtlety DPS tree any more than I see a problem with allowing Sub to use all of it's attacks from the front. It doesn't fit, mechanically, or from a flavor perspective, the way it's currently implemented.

Stealth-in-combat is one thing I think could really use an overhaul.

[Deleted]

Stealth-in-combat is one thing I think could really use an overhaul.

Hmm. I'd agree with you, but I think the problem runs deeper than "Just do it right!". Stealth is an inherently defensive "thing". Even if we somehow manage to make a rotation that included stealth without breaking the rotation, it'd still feel "tacked on". Let me illustrate:

- You're up against a raid boss
- Tank is tanking the boss
- You're attack the boss from behind
- You're entering and existing stealth like a maniac to "avoid being seen" by an enemy who's got his back turned towards you...?

It just seems... Well, stupid. There's just no point to it whatsoever.

And that's not just it, I mean, any case you COULD make for that kinda change (I.e. you're stealthing in on a target and the surprise attack gives you bonus damage, etc...) works just as well OUTSIDE of stealth(Your training and cunning lets you peek through your targets defenses, etc...) Nevermind the fact that having stealth as an engaging part of our rotation would make PVP somewhat difficult to balance. How exactly do you combat an opponent who appears and disappears as a part of his rotation?!

The problem with stealth is quite simple; It serves no purpose in PVE. There's just no reason for you to be "unseen" when your target doesn't actually care for you in the first place. I'm sure you COULD make a somewhat more... Engaging use for stealth? "After 3 Backstabs, you gain the vanish buff, and your next finisher deals additional damage" or something of the like, but as I explained previously, anything of that sort will make PVP a bitch to balance.

Some things just aren't meant to be. And in PVE, as stealth is right now, it's one of those things.