Warlock Lore: What question do you want answered most?

[deviantcultist]

1)Where do sha whisper into your mind? And demonic?

2)Touch of chaos has a demonic feel to it

3)"Perhaps you can accept the disorder of this universe" doesn't mean chaos. There is disorder in the universe. Mainly the Burning Legion. Demons.

4)Archbishop Benedictus (Priest) used twilight magic. We have what? 1 ability? Twilight ward? Locks use fel magic.

1) In several instances, including the Sha of Anger and the Jade Serpent Dailies, sha whisper into your mind in demonic, old gods don't.

2) Check the animation again.

3) Check the whole text, the player is called "seeker of chaos, wielder of shadows, summoner of demons" and then this, that's why.

4)The Black Harvest looked into the Twilight theme and picked up dark arts, including Malefic Grasp which says that it binds the target in twilight, twilight ward and void ray used to be called ray of twilight. Many new shadow animations are parallel to Bastion of Twilight ones.

[checking facts]

Other classes can fear too.

other classes can wield sha too. even warriors.

Archbishop Benedictus (Priest) used twilight magic. We have what? 1 ability? Twilight ward? Locks use fel magic.

twilight ward and malefic grasp. priests get tentacles and mindbender. 2 twilight skills for each, fair.

(EDIT: also, if you want to talk about NPCs, cho'gall was a warlock)

also: http://www.wowpedia.org/Legacy_of_th...s_%28Part_1%29

this in-game book explains the origins of the warlock revamp.

"Similarly, Shinfel and Zelfrax would hunt down the remaining members of the Twilight's Hammer cult and ... persuade them to share what they learned."

Locks use power. any power they can get their hands on.

[Deleted]

Hilarious how he's saying necromancy has no place in the warlock class... Gul'dan being the most prominent warlock in wow lore dealt in necromancy.

Gul'dan was a shaman too, can't wait for my fire elemental.
Med'an is a mage / paladin / preist / shaman thing.

Lore characters are not a great way to judge class design, classes NEED a distinct image. Lore characters tend to be a cut above the edge.

A)Check priests with the Sha-Touched staff/mace
B)How about the twilight element (new thing) or the void? Do they have to do with demons? Only fel does.

a) Cosmetic items hold little weight, Firelands had a druid staff that turned them into a fire cat, it wasn't in any ways an indicator that druids were going to start controlling Ragnaros' power or somesuch.
b) It's stemming from the well established warlocks = shadow theme, (I'm aware that twilight is apparently something else, but denying it's huge similarity to shadow is silly), sha on the other hand, don't really share any similarities with our current themes.

Its not about everything that looks cool. Its about a new dark theme that had us hyped with a new tier, several spells being black and white versions of our spells and several Sha whispering in your mind in demonic, similar to how the fel voices work according to quests and lore. On top of it, Sha looks like an immense force, not simply a spiritual thing(eg. Rommath looks ecstatic by consuming some of the essence and compares it to fel).

Tier sets are simply things that look cool, there are plenty of tier sets from our and other classes that have had tie-ins with enemies - the Warrior ICC set didn't mean that they were becoming Vrykul themed, every hunter set is based on an enemytype. There's no deeper meaning to our set than theirs.

I've never noticed sha whispering in demonic, which sounds odd - since they're certainly not demons - but some of them ARE classified as elementals in some situations, that doesn't mean they're elementals for anything other than gameplay purposes. Not sure how much credit I'd give to them apparently whispering in demonic when it's clear they're not demons. Likewise I give absolutely zero credence to some of their spells being re-coloured warlock spells, purely a way of cutting corners, why give their attacks an entirely new animation when you can give them a slightly altered existing one? Reading into it any further seems silly.

Rommath's comparison to it feeling like Fel was, as I read it, purely stating that it was corrosive. If you're going to start acknowledging that then I find it amusing that you're refusing to acknowledge the rest of the chain that showed the sha being completely unusable and out of control, wrecking anyone who tried to utilize them - and it had the hordes best assigned to it.

what stops warlocks from acting as conduits for sha power?

quoting xelnath himself: "[FYI This statement may no longer be considered canon]"

besides, we see the mogu wielding sha. some of them are called Korune Sha-weavers! if canon lore shows us people wielding a power and than say it can't be wielded, it's bad writing. I sincerely doubt the mogu have any more inner counterbalance than warlocks lol

The Warlock quest line Xelnath mentioned may not be canon, but the 5.1 quest line that was originally slated to be released alongside it certainly is, and shows the exact same outcome. Sha driving anyone that tried to use them mad, and ultimately, dead. Warlocks attempting to control sha was dropped, sha being completely uncontrollable wasn't - if anything it debases the idea of warlocks utilising sha, not supporting it.

Mogu - I've seen those mobs.
I've also seen the hordes best fail and call it folly.

Mogu are still a pretty unknown factor - maybe they have a lore reason for being able to utilise the sha to some degree, maybe they don't. In 5.1 we captured a mogu for the very reason of learning how they could control sha (and finding the bell), it came to nothing - I doubt we'd be doing that if we could do it without them, and 5.1 certainly showed that was the case.

[checking facts]

The Warlock quest line Xelnath mentioned may not be canon, but the 5.1 quest line that was originally slated to be released alongside it certainly is, and shows the exact same outcome. Sha driving anyone that tried to use them mad, and ultimately, dead. Warlocks attempting to control sha was dropped, sha being completely uncontrollable wasn't - if anything it debases the idea of warlocks utilising sha, not supporting it.

Mogu - I've seen those mobs.
I've also seen the hordes best fail and call it folly.

Mogu are still a pretty unknown factor - maybe they have a lore reason for being able to utilise the sha to some degree, maybe they don't. In 5.1 we captured a mogu for the very reason of learning how they could control sha (and finding the bell), it came to nothing - I doubt we'd be doing that if we could do it without them, and 5.1 certainly showed that was the case.

sha can't be uncontrollable since the korune clan does control it. if anything, the 5.1 quests showed it's POSSIBLE to control the sha, but garrosh and his "anger issues orcs" don't know how to do it.

when we captred the mogu warlord, we never asked him how he used the sha, we just wanted to know about the bell. garrosh thought having the bell he'd know how to use it.

Garrosh Hellscream says: I will concern myself with how it works once I have it in my possessions, Blood Elf.

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=68429

you can't compare the sha knowledge of a clan that mastered the sha 12000 years ago with garrosh and his goons.

but whatever the mogu or garrosh can do, a warlock can do better. except for push-ups.

[Deleted]

Gul'dan was a shaman too, can't wait for my fire elemental.
Med'an is a mage / paladin / preist / shaman thing.

Lore characters are not a great way to judge class design, classes NEED a distinct image. Lore characters tend to be a cut above the edge.
......

No Nagassh, this post really does show you like to talk, but don't really know why you say the things you say.

Gul'dan was a shaman, he gave up his shamanistic link to become a warlock, much like Nerzhul.
Current azerothian warlocks were either mages or shamans who made the same decision.

When you give up a weaker discipline and replace it with one that strives for more power, why go back and use the spells/abilities that you had relinquished?

Why summon a fire elemental when you can summon an infernal?

Going by your logic, all warlocks ingame should either have the entire mage toolkit or the entire shaman toolkit added on to their newfound warlock toolkit.

Stop grasping at straws.

[Jessicka]

No Nagassh, this post really does show you like to talk, but don't really know why you say the things you say.

Gul'dan was a shaman, he gave up his shamanistic link to become a warlock, much like Nerzhul.
Current azerothian warlocks were either mages or shamans who made the same decision.

When you give up a weaker discipline and replace it with one that strives for more power, why go back and use the spells/abilities that you had relinquished?

Why summon a fire elemental when you can summon an infernal?

Going by your logic, all warlocks ingame should either have the entire mage toolkit or the entire shaman toolkit added on to their newfound warlock toolkit.

Stop grasping at straws.

Then by this logic the 'Sha Weaver' would have to give up their link to Warlock powers...

[Deleted]

When you give up a weaker discipline and replace it with one that strives for more power, why go back and use the spells/abilities that you had relinquished?

You mean like all of our none-fel fire spells?

Warlocks aren't necromancers, regardless of the bleedover with a few spells like deathcoil (and even that has been renamed mortal coil to differentiate it) and the like.

I don't see how I'm grasping at straws by saying that - nor are major lore figures a stable representation of what a class should be. Nor do I see how the post makes me "not know why I say the things I say". I'm fairly sure I could throw those borderline insults right back at you considering Jessickas post and a few points in the following paragraph.

Classes need a distinct image - otherwise they don't get off the dev table, warlocks have that, it would be lost as soon as they started summoning undead - which they don't. Some spells like corruption and deathcoil fit into the warlock spell cleanly (Just like immolation aura and the like do without turning the class into a demon hunter, having that hasn't made us suddenly start swinging glaives around) without diluting it into a necromancer, which is what the point I was trying to make was - shoving sha in would deviate from the class image so much it's ludicrous, just as much as giving warriors a ranged tree would (and I'm sure you can dig up an example of a warrior archetype in lore using a crossbow or somesuch).

What you're disagreeing with is beyond me, but it'd be nice if you could make it clear without resorting to ad hominem arguments.

[checking facts]

Then by this logic the 'Sha Weaver' would have to give up their link to Warlock powers...

there's a difference: shamanism is about asking the spirits for favors. if the spirit doesn't like you, he won't answer to your call (shaman spells are called "calls").

when you corrupt the nature around you and defile the will of your ancestors, the spirits of nature and the spirits of the ancestors tend to get butthurt over it. small details, I know, but apparently it means a lot to them.

as for the sha, it reacts naturally to passions in pandaria. a demonology warlock who's all furious in pandaria will naturally invoke the sha of anger to his location. that may work in his favor ("Your rage gives you strength!", Sha of Anger) or against him ("Let your rage consume you.", Sha of Anger).

now, there are 2 problems about sha-weaving:

1 - it's a mindbreaking consuming power based on emotion;
2 - it only happens in pandaria unless you bring some sha out of pandaria in a box or something;

as an engineering student, I'd say solving those two problems would be enough for a sha-weaving warlock to work.

1 - self control, there's no way around it. give in to your anger until you feel you are starting to lose yourself, than STAHP! it sounds like something very hard, but remember: it's all about will power.

warlocks have strong willpower by default. if they didn't, they wouldn't have survived their own normal powers. their demons would kill them, or their magic would consume all their life energy. warlock skills like "Unending Resolve" and "unbound Will" attest to this strong willpower.

mixing some mild pandaren balance philosophy in our witchcraft could also help on this. as said the naaru, we walk the line between absolute power and total corruption. balance appears to be important to warlocks, else they fall on the second part of it;

2 - Carry a sha box around lol;

now here's my own personal opinion in this whole deal: sha-weaving fits warlocks well, for now. but the sha are something so intrinsic to pandaria, that it'll feel out of place next expansion.

IF Pandaren Warlock was a valid Race-Class Combination, than perhaps it would be nice to have a "Sha of Fear" talent that summons a sha that fears people who go near it, or a "Glyph of Anger" that replaces the infernal with sha of anger, but since pandaren warlocks are a no-no, I don't see any reason to bother with it.

but if someone wants to RP a sha-weaver, I see no issues with it. fear -> sha of fear; demonology fury stuff -> sha of anger; shadow bolt -> sha bolt, et cetera.

---------- Post added 2013-01-16 at 01:27 PM ----------

adding to the "shamanism" talk, just to make it clear why you can't be a warlock and a shaman at the same time:

Drek'thar: The wolves are not tamed, not as you might understand the word. They have come to be our friends because I invited them. It is a part of being a shaman. We have a bond with the things of the natural world, and strive always to work in harmony with them. Warlocks would term them spells, but we shamans simply term them calls. We ask, the powers we work with answer. Or not, as they will. I can call the snows, and wind, and lightning. The trees may bend to me when I ask. The rivers may flow where I ask them to.

Thrall: If your power is so great, then why do you continue to live in such a harsh place? If what you are saying is true, you could turn this barren mountaintop into a lush garden. Food would never be difficult to come by, your enemies would never find you—

Drek'thar (angrily): And I would violate the primary agreement with the elements, and nothing of nature would ever respond to me again! Do you understand nothing? Have the humans sunk their greedy talons in you so deeply that you cannot see what lies at the heart of a shaman's power? I am granted these things because I ask, with respect in my heart, and I am willing to offer something in return. I request only the barest needs for myself and my people. At times, I ask great things, but only when the cause is good and just and wholesome. In return, I thank these powers, knowing they are borrowed only, never bought. They come to me because they choose to, not because I demand it! These are not slaves, Thrall. They are powerful entities who come of their own free will, who are companions in my magic, not my servants. Pagh! You will never understand.

[Rasula Elfbiter]

Sha speaking demonic doesn't mean anything, several mogu mobs speak demonic too. I believe this is an oversight.

A question I want a straight answer for, is when did orcs actually become to fully accept warlocks of nearly Warcraft 1/2 era status? Under Thrall, although warlocks were more or less tolerated, they had little more rights than Stormwind warlocks, and all orc warlock organizations were hostile to the players and depicted as evil. Now we have plenty of orc warlocks as commanding officers in the Horde. Even among Kor'Kron - see Darkspear Isles quests in 5.1. So much for abandoning old fel ties?

Another question I have, is the fussle with Loramus the demons hunter, and the gnome warlock in the Blasted Lands who orchestrated him absorbing Razelikh into himself... Wonder if this plot gets a follow-up in the next expansion.

And finally, are dwarf warlocks Dark Irons who somehow just don't get proper skins (as, after all, Moira IS the Dark Iron regent queen), or Ironforge mages gone bad? There were very few dwarf warlocks before Cata, and most of them were Dark Irons...

[Medieve]

the thunder king is a mogu who tore the heart of a titan watcher out. that gave him power over lightning ("It is said that he tore out the very heart of the mogu God. And from that hateful act he gained power over wind and storm.", datamined info).

he used that power to rise to power and become the mogu king ("The Thunder King rose to power the “the mogu way,” namely by eliminating his rivals one by one. According to legend he was able to accomplish this with the help of a mysterious artifact that he found in the depths of a mountain.").

in the year 170 of the thunder king's reign, the korune clan gave him the divine bell, made with "maker's flesh" (probably Ra-den's, since he's the titanic watcher the mogu have in their possession) and the "breath of the darkest shadow" (sha). the thunder king used the divine bell to control the sha, empowering his troops with anger and hatred, and causing fear and doubts on his enemies.

"In the one-hundred-and-seventieth year of the Thunder King's reign, the Korune spellweavers (casts "Sha Bolt and Sha Eruption") came to Lei Shen with their greatest creation.

A bell cast from the makers' flesh, shaped by stars' fire, and bound by the breath of darkest shadow. This bell, when rung, could shake the world and call to the heavens.

Taken to war, the bell's cacophonous tones stirred the hearts of Lei Shen's warriors. It fueled their hatred and anger, lending them strength on the field of battle. The bell's screaming voice struck fear and doubt into the hearts of the Emperor's enemies, sending them fleeing in his path.

Awed by its power, the Thunder King described the instrument as "the voice of the gods," and named it Shenqing, the Divine Bell." (http://www.wowpedia.org/Ancient_Korune_Tablet)

so yeah, I'd say we know enough of the thunder king.

the korune clan mastered the sha, made a "sha remote control" and gave it to the thunder king as a gift 170 years after he became the emperor by stealing titan power.

If all of that is true, and why wouldn't datamined info be true, that means the Thunder King is an Old God, since they are the only ones who are equal or of greater power than the Titans, the Sha are Old God minions, and the Mogu are forms of life that exist to further the Old God's end. Doesn't that seem a bit off? It seems more likely the Thunder King is a Troll who found a relic from the fallen Titan when they were entombing the Old Gods originally. Thinking warlocks can call upon the power of the Old Gods at will and control it is exactly what got Cho'Gall into the position he was in, and exactly what made him the puppet he was.

[checking facts]

If all of that is true, and why wouldn't datamined info be true, that means the Thunder King is an Old God, since they are the only ones who are equal or of greater power than the Titans, the Sha are Old God minions, and the Mogu are forms of life that exist to further the Old God's end. Doesn't that seem a bit off? It seems more likely the Thunder King is a Troll who found a relic from the fallen Titan when they were entombing the Old Gods originally.

the thunder king is not an old god. he's a titan creation, like any other mogu. this is the info about him from the dungeon journal:

"Lei Shen's life changed forever when he stumbled into a dark chamber below what are now the Mogu'shan Vaults. Legend has it he found an ancient titan keeper guarding a miraculous device known as the Engine of Nalak'sha. No one knows what transpired between the two beings, but Lei Shen later emerged from the site bristling with the power to forge an empire. The keeper's fate -- and his current whereabouts -- remain a mystery."

he was lucky enough to find a titan keeper. he defeated him (maybe with the help of a raid of mogu), and took his heart (from the lorewalker cho datamined dialog). he's not an old god. he's not a troll either. the mogu are titan creations:

"The mogu were children as well. Children of the Titans. They were once a legion of stone, heartless and obedient. By the Titans' command, they fought the terrible servants of the Old Gods.

They shaped the mountains and carved the rivers of the land. And they created a magical cradle of life in a hidden valley that we now call the Vale of Eternal Blossoms.

But eventually the Titans fell silent. And their creations were cursed with flesh. The mogu grew restless. Many generations later, when Thunder King united them, they seized upon their legacy! I truly believe now that the mogu thought they were doing the work of the Titans. They fought against the mantid and used the powers of the Vale to create new life. Ah, but such terrible works! Parents cannot always be assured of the legacy they will leave behind. How especially true this is, when the parents are Gods. And their children - monsters."

[deviantcultist]

I would be sad if the explanation behind Mogu using the Sha is that due to them being associated with Titan creations, they bear no emotion, therefore they use it without being consumed themselves. And that priests can do it because of their "inner counterbalance".

I'd find it terrible to completely cross out Warlocks of the Sha arsenal, even if it means getting us corrupted while using it.

[shinewaylee]

1：Why other classes add CCs,while our cc is reduced 3 from 1?
2: When faced with a normal man,how can I cast a CB,more important is,when CB is interrupt,why we cannot cast other self-saving spell,which is same with Affi?
3:Frost mage and shadow Priest,they are all magic class,why must we cast long-cast spell,while they donnot rely on casting?

[checking facts]

I would be sad if the explanation behind Mogu using the Sha is that due to them being associated with Titan creations, they bear no emotion, therefore they use it without being consumed themselves. And that priests can do it because of their "inner counterbalance".

I'd find it terrible to completely cross out Warlocks of the Sha arsenal, even if it means getting us corrupted while using it.

the mogu are not emotionless though we have seen many cases of mogu getting angry, raging, breaking into fights, doing yo-mama jokes:

"Your mother is so old, she saw the rise of the first kingdom!"
"Your father is so weak that a Pandarian took pity on him and invited him to dinner!"
"Your clan is so low that Hozen tell stupid jokes about them!"
"Where did you get that weapon from? Your sister?"

the divine bell book even states how the bell fueled the mogu's emotions of anger and hatred.

"Taken to war, the bell's cacophonous tones stirred the hearts of Lei Shen's warriors. It fueled their hatred and anger, lending them strength on the field of battle."

[deviantcultist]

"Taken to war, the bell's cacophonous tones stirred the hearts of Lei Shen's warriors. It fueled their hatred and anger, lending them strength on the field of battle."

That is good to hear

[Grubjuice]

Aren't warlocks assumed to be greedy, powerhungry and reckless?
i mean, isn't that what makes a warlock?

[Jessicka]

Aren't warlocks assumed to be greedy, powerhungry and reckless?
i mean, isn't that what makes a warlock?

Sure, and Zelfrax was intended to try and fail miserably. It may not necessarily be considered canon, but without any evidence to the contrary I think it's safe to think it would be. It seems clear to me, however, that the Mogu control it is irrelevant, because Warlocks simply aren't able to wield Sha power in the way that Sha power allows itself to be wielded.

[Medieve]

the thunder king is not an old god. he's a titan creation, like any other mogu. this is the info about him from the dungeon journal:

"Lei Shen's life changed forever when he stumbled into a dark chamber below what are now the Mogu'shan Vaults. Legend has it he found an ancient titan keeper guarding a miraculous device known as the Engine of Nalak'sha. No one knows what transpired between the two beings, but Lei Shen later emerged from the site bristling with the power to forge an empire. The keeper's fate -- and his current whereabouts -- remain a mystery."

he was lucky enough to find a titan keeper. he defeated him (maybe with the help of a raid of mogu), and took his heart (from the lorewalker cho datamined dialog). he's not an old god. he's not a troll either. the mogu are titan creations:

"The mogu were children as well. Children of the Titans. They were once a legion of stone, heartless and obedient. By the Titans' command, they fought the terrible servants of the Old Gods.

They shaped the mountains and carved the rivers of the land. And they created a magical cradle of life in a hidden valley that we now call the Vale of Eternal Blossoms.

But eventually the Titans fell silent. And their creations were cursed with flesh. The mogu grew restless. Many generations later, when Thunder King united them, they seized upon their legacy! I truly believe now that the mogu thought they were doing the work of the Titans. They fought against the mantid and used the powers of the Vale to create new life. Ah, but such terrible works! Parents cannot always be assured of the legacy they will leave behind. How especially true this is, when the parents are Gods. And their children - monsters."

Essentially we have "dude" skipping through the woods, falling into a hole, and somehow gaining great power from a Titan artifact. He may have defeated him, the Keeper simply may not have been there at the time. Not all Keepers are the most alert beings, if you'd recall. No where in that does it mention race, or even if that power truly was Titan, just that it is rumored to be so, and with no evidence beyond that rumor, we've got still, nothing. You're grasping at straws, the same as I am. The difference is I'm being more obvious about it. The fallacy is relying on datamined dialogue that may or may not ever make it into the game. Even worse, no where does this prove that the Mogu actually control the Sha, or the Sha let some of their power be manipulated for their own ends, which is why every single person who has attempted to control it thus far that we have seen has failed miserably and been utterly consumed. So we're still left with a very combustible source of power that utterly consumes anyone who would try to harness it, including Warlocks. The Mogu aren't stronger, they aren't more disciplined, they aren't in any way better than any other champion of the Horde or Alliance. The Bell was shown to not magically give someone the ability to harness the power without being consumed by it. The only logical step remaining is the Sha allow the Mogu to manipulate a part of their power for their own ends, and by doing so, corrupt and control the Mogu in the process. There is overwhelming evidence all across Pandaria to support that.

[checking facts]

Essentially we have "dude" skipping through the woods, falling into a hole, and somehow gaining great power from a Titan artifact. He may have defeated him, the Keeper simply may not have been there at the time.

you can't rip someone's heart out without him being there -_-

There is overwhelming evidence all across Pandaria to support that.

no, there isn't. there isn't a single line, a single passage on a book or object, a single word or action that might indicate that the mogu serve the sha. au contraire. the mogu are ALWAYS shown as too proud to be under the rule of ANYONE who isn't mogu. in their heads, they were born to rule the world and everything there is on it.

the big shas were all defeated, and the korune serve the thunder king, who serves no one else. the korune use sha spells. they made a bell to control sha. lei shen used the bell, but garrosh couldn't, probably because no one gave him instructions on how the bell works.

if you know some piece of "overwhelming evidence" of the mogu serving the sha, please show me. factual evidence. in-game dialog, in-game text, datamined info (with source), novel passages, anything that is verifiably canon.

[deviantcultist]

Big Warlock Lore question:

As of today, I have noticed 2 application of the term blood in magic. One is the Death Knight manipulation of life energy and the other is the Warlock "sacrificial" style of blood magic (life tap, sacrificial pact, blood fear, health funnel etc).

In 5.2, Lor'themar mentions this:

"Blood as a power source, very powerful form of life magic. The work of the Titans perhaps. How does it work? Aethas, I want our best archmages studying this device at once. We have so much to learn."

What is the meaning of this? Could it be Mages snatching blood magic under the excuse of it being used by Titans? Not to mention that the Dark Animus(Blood Machine Boss) spells are fire spells. I really do NOT want to see that happening.