Are you enjoying the endgame?

[SirRobin]

Well, depending on what amuses you, anything could be "fun"

The question is whether or not Guild Wars 2 can appeal to a viable audience, with "fun" content, and as we can see in other MMOs, grinding quests is not usually considered the pinnacle achievement of a developer creating a "fun" game

Progression is a part of every MMORPG that I can recall. Call it raiding, questing, eventing, dailies, weeklies, arenas, RvR, etc, etc, etc... That progression is still there. They are all "grinding" per se. Besides, what viable audience? They've "appealed" to a couple million folks for this buy-to-play game already. GW2's revenue model isn't built around making people pay-to-play and, therefore, needing to keep them wanting to play. They've already got your money, so to speak. So everything Arena Net gets afterward is pure bonus.

Since GW2's revenue model isn't built around subscribers spending days, weeks, months, or even years, grinding raids for progression. Why should their progression have to carbon copy game's whose revenue model is? It doesn't and, it just so happens, isn't.

[Migrin]

It is not so bad for me really. I suppose is a matter of preference. While I may struggle in battle for a weekend until I get good pvp gear, I also have fun because I get rewards that give my character more power. so it is still fun in a way. Also in GW2 gear also matter in WvW. If I join WvW with a green gear and fight someone with exotic are you sure that he has not advantage?

And getting exotic gear you either need 60+ explorable dungeons or around a million of karma. It will take over a month for a casual player to gear up. And honestly the best pvp selling point of the game for the majority of people is WvW not tournaments. Even players like me that have not so much interesting in pvp they are excited about WvW. And if you make alts and want to make WvW with alts, you need again a month+ as a casual player to make an exotic set. I don't know how much classes are scale with gear in GW2 though

Thank you for the reply. I don't think it is a show stopper either and with MoP and the base defence chars get, I hope blizzard will improve this. Regarding WvWvW I have to agree with you that the one wearing exotics will have an advantage again someone in greens. And I think that is okay. The question is more how big the difference is. In WoW, and I am sure this is also the case in other games, the diffence is just amazing. I have been very passionate for GW1 because of this reason. At level 20 you got the "BIS" gear pretty quickly, but nevertheless, you still felt like you were progressing. Unfortunately, I can not yet make a statement on how long it takes to obtain gear in GW2. As long as the way there is fun I hope it takes a long time

[Beefsquatch]

Progression is a part of every MMORPG that I can recall. Call it raiding, questing, eventing, dailies, weeklies, arenas, RvR, etc, etc, etc... That progression is still there. They are all "grinding" per se. Besides, what viable audience? They've "appealed" to a couple million folks for this buy-to-play game already. GW2's revenue model isn't built around making people pay-to-play and, therefore, needing to keep them wanting to play. They've already got your money, so to speak. So everything Arena Net gets afterward is pure bonus.

Since GW2's revenue model isn't built around subscribers spending days, weeks, months, or even years, grinding raids for progression. Why should their progression have to carbon copy game's whose revenue model is? It doesn't and, it just so happens, isn't.

They may say that but I don't see the logic in it. They are running servers for an MMORPG. They need to have some kind of extra income, be it the in game store...more box sales etc. They said that they may come out with paid content that isn't expansions. Like extra dungeons, areas, etc. And that they want to come out with expansions regularly. So with that being said, why would players want to buy their expansions and paid content if they aren't getting their moneys worth considering it's an mmorpg? This isn't a single player rpg, when it comes to mmo's people expect to stay playing for a long time, stay entertained etc. So everything Anet gets after isn't bonus, it's to create more content to make more money and keep their company going.

They need players, and of course want them to keep playing. Stay on their servers, what company wouldn't want their mmo to be full of people, buying their content and using the cash shop all the time? That's why that "oh theres no monthly fee, if you're bored stop playing" thing doesn't make sense to me. That applies to single player rpg games. But for an mmo, no.

[Shadzta]

This is coming from a guy that had a boner every time I logged in. Once I hit 80, nearing map completion I'm getting really bored with the game. I thought the explorable modes were going to keep me busy for quite some time. But they aren't even hard, just annoying, buggy and sometimes longer than they should be. There is no real reward to keep running them other than the 20 (or 30 for daily) tokens. And having to run them over 60 times just to get the full set kind of sucks. It's right in your face grind when it comes to gear. Either farming karma or farming dungeons. DE's are becoming repetitive as well, and Orr is a zergfest. I have never had that much fun leveling up before, but now that I'm 80..everything is quite ehh.
Speaking of map completion, it becomes a bit expensive since the waypoint prices dont scale down for lower levels. Wayy too overpriced imo, considering gold isn't that easy to come by. A shitty goldsink.

Also I'm not much of a pvper, I love pve. The pvp is alright but it's not really my thing. It's kind of disappointing considering Anet said this game was going to be based around not only pvp like GW1, but pve heavy as well. Seems like the pvp is where the focus is at level 80.


I believe Anet should really take a long hard look at their current pve model. Dungeon wise. Fix those bugs and maybe change a few things around, how many tokens needed for gear. Or the time it takes to do certain dungeons like Arah. As of right now The citadel of flame seems to be the welfare dungeon. 15-20 mins for a full run. Things are just..out of whack so it seems.

Anyone else have any thoughts, agree or disagree with me? Why or why not.
Please explain, don't just say yes or no. Would like to have a nice discussion about this.

Anet said they pulled most of the Orr content for launch to help ensure a smoother launch to devote more time to bugs etc etc...give it a month or so they'll release the rest of Orr...and Wala...suddenly better and more abundant " end game " content.

[SirRobin]

They may say that but I don't see the logic in it. They are running servers for an MMORPG. They need to have some kind of extra income, be it the in game store...more box sales etc. They said that they may come out with paid content that isn't expansions. Like extra dungeons, areas, etc. And that they want to come out with expansions regularly. So with that being said, why would players want to buy their expansions and paid content if they aren't getting their moneys worth considering it's an mmorpg? This isn't a single player rpg, when it comes to mmo's people expect to stay playing for a long time, stay entertained etc. So everything Anet gets after isn't bonus, it's to create more content to make more money and keep their company going.

I don't exactly see the logic in it either. Then again, I also don't see the logic in F2P. However, whether we see the logic or not, it actually works. Its not like they have not done this before after all. The first game was B2P, hardly wildly popular, and still ended up with six or seven million in sales. Though this one may be more "traditionally," server wise, organized. It seems to be selling well. The first game showed, clearly enough, that they don't have to copy the EQ slash WoW model to keep the company going.

---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 09:58 AM ----------

Anet said they pulled most of the Orr content for launch to help ensure a smoother launch to devote more time to bugs etc etc...give it a month or so they'll release the rest of Orr...and Wala...suddenly better and more abundant " end game " content.

It should probably be noted that the game isn't even a month old yet either. MMORPG's are, by their nature, rarely ever "done." So who knows what the game will be like a few months, or years, from now.

[Ghul]

at the end of the day, its still just another mmo.

[Deleted]

The Problem with WoW is that character power scales so well with gear, that you will easily get steamrolled when you make your first steps in PvP. So you either have to constantly play pvp from the beginning of an expac, where the conditions gear wise are the same for everybody, or you have to swallow shit.

Or you just exchange your Justice Points for Honor Points and buy your PvP stuff by doing PvE dungeons.

Or just craft a basic PvP set.

[Fencers]

The whole World of Warcraft PVP/PVE discussion does not belong here. Do not persist with that conversation in this thread. Only warning.

--Fencers

[SamR]

They haven't tricked anyone, if people are too dumb to research a game before they purchase it, that is their problem. It has always been clear GW2 was far more PvP focused then the likes of WoW, Rift, LOTRO, etc, it was not a secret. Not that stops it from having PvE, having tierd raids that must be mindlessly farmed to get the next level of raid to mindlesly farm != PvE.

It's funny, but I got jumped on a couple of times on MMO-C for suggesting that GW2 was going to be a PvP-focused game. I believe someone even once accused me of spreading misinformation for stating that opinion because it just showed I hadn't done my research to see how awesome PvE in GW2 was going to be.

If you go back 3 or 4 months in this very forum you can see long threads where people suggesting that GW2 was going to be PvP focused are dismissed as haters.

So people who did not realize GW2 was a PvP focused game might have not done any research on the game before they bought it. Or they might have just read the MMO-C GW2 forum for too long. :P

[Granyala]

I first have to find out what exatcly GW2s endgame content is. So far, I can see none.

[Vexies]

So people who did not realize GW2 was a PvP focused game might have not done any research on the game before they bought it. Or they might have just read the MMO-C GW2 forum for too long. :P

I still wouldn't agree with the statement that it is a PVP focused game. It certainly is there and well done but I personally have barely touched it yet. I have spent my time almost entirely in the PVE realm and have had a blast. There is plenty to do PVE wise. The one issue people confuse more than any other is that the lack of "raiding" = no end game content. It is unfortunate that other games have programmed us to believe that is all there is to do for end game but sadly there are plenty who subscribe to this belief. IF they came into GW2 without realizing that the PVE endgame was not raid focused then well shame on them.

Personally I love raiding but I tend to be more open to games and take them as they are and accept them for what they are rather than forcing my own expectations on them of what I THINK they should be. If I enjoy them I play them, simple really. GW2 hands down has been the most fun ive had in a MMO in a long time.

[SirRobin]

While I didn't pay a lot attention to GW2, only bought it because of how disappointing TOR was, I don't recall any major PvP-centric "hype." Of course the name "Guild Wars" implies larger scale PvP to me. The hype I do recall was about "dynamic events." Guild Wars has a lot of PvE content and PvP content. It also has a lot of environmental content, like POI's, Vista's, etc, which are not "versus" at all. Its "different," and for some folks like me it is refreshingly so. For some its not and they may feel its stupid, or boring, or even "small," instead.

Meh... Its a different strokes for different folks sort of thing I guess. Exploration being a strong part of an MMORPG is something I've been missing since early WoW. Nice to see it playing a big part in an MMORPG again. Including large scale PvP on top of it plus area and event based PvE? We be jammin mon.

[DrakeWurrum]

People just jump to conclusions that this is a PvP game because there's no competitive PvE scene. Very poor judgment.

[Granyala]

People just jump to conclusions that this is a PvP game because there's no competitive PvE scene. Very poor judgment.

Not really. Competition and actual hard content that keeps you busy for a while is the main thing for longterm motivation in a PvE game. GW2 doesn't have that. If I don't like the aesthetics of the dungeon set there is zip reason to go there more than once. (Or three times, if I understand the path thing correctly)

GW2 just can't hold the hardcore PvE crowd for very long that's why it's called "a PvP game".

[SirRobin]

GW2 hands down has been the most fun ive had in a MMO in a long time.

Same, what's made it even more so for me was that I never expected it to be this good in the first place. I was thinking it was something that might carry me through for a month or two until something less boring came along. I never picked up the first game so I really had no expectations and its been a surprisingly rewarding experience for me.

---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 01:48 PM ----------

GW2 just can't hold the hardcore PvE crowd for very long that's why it's called "a PvP game".

By who? Some posters? Not to mention that the game's revenue model doesn't appear to rely on "keeping" any crowd.

[DrakeWurrum]

Competition and actual hard content that keeps you busy for a while is the main thing for longterm motivation in a PvE game.

Not really. That's not universally true at all.

[SirRobin]

Not really. That's not universally true at all.

Above and beyond the fact that many P2P MMORPG's which used the "raid" model soon lost most of their subscribers after launch anyway. Apparently losing the "hardcore PvE crowd," anyway. So maybe it is time for something different?

[Fencers]

Well, I do think Arena.net bank on their PVP gameplay for longterm sustainability. It was the same with Guild Wars 1. Also not a "PVP game" but heavily considered such.

That said, there is a lot more PVE content in GW2 than like all the past games combined. You could literally finish Prop or Factions PVE campaigns in like 2 days. And I mean "finish" absolutely.

This ongoing PVE thing is a still kinda new to the franchise.

[Deleted]

Voted no.
The amount of grind is unbearable.
It's really sad to realize ANet turned back on their word once again.

[DrakeWurrum]

Voted no.
The amount of grind is unbearable.
It's really sad to realize ANet turned back on their word once again.

What word? They never said there was no grind.