Why is WoW moving away from raiding?

[Crashdummy]

Yeah, it was a catching up system that didn't make all previous content completely obsolete. Notice the difference with the current system?

It was a fast designed first approach system.

Current catching up system is fine. The problem with cata was the content, not the system.

[tristannarutofan]

I know majority of players dont raid but I dont see why the people who do raid are now being punished. To me the game just seems to be moving away from raiding. I will try not to make this too drawn out but theres a few points Id like to hit on.

First of all why cant Blizzard accept that theres different levels of skill and commitment people are willing to put into raids. Not everyone is going to be in a cutting edge guild with complete mastery of their class. During Vanilla and TBC there were raids designed around that. I didnt raid much during Vanilla so I will just discuss TBC. The lesser geared people started out doing Gruul/Mags/Kara, then moved into SSC/TK, then into Hyjal,BT, and finally Sunwell. Also you had ZA as well. But the great thing is none of those raids were ever made obsolete by heroics like raids are today. People raided Kara until the day Wrath went live for example.

What was so wrong with progression raiding? I know the main thing was having to get new recruits attuned as well as people guild hopping to guilds doing higher tiers but if they did away with attunements but still had gear progression would people be for that? I mean theres always going to be drops that no one needs so gearing recruits shouldnt take that long when they can pick up they stuff that would otherwise get DE'd.

But today it just feels like Blizzard is almost trying to get rid of raiding altogether. They have combined 10/25 man lockouts which has basically killed 25 man raiding. Even during Wrath most raids I did were 25 mans. I hardly ever did 10 mans unless it was for gearing a new alt in order to do 25 mans. Also during each patch they make the previous raids 100% useless. You can argue "Well they are still there nothing is preventing you from doing them" Actually there is something preventing you its called no one bothers when easy mode 5 mans offer better gear. Why raid BoT or BWD for 359s when in 20 mins you can finish a HoT and get 378s?

Also JPs/VPs should not be rewarded for completing 5 mans. JPs should drop from lower tier raids and VPs should drop from higher tier raids. So you farm lower raids until you are geared to start the higher ones. Which brings me to another point. Why do we even need multiple difficulties of the same raid? Does Blizzard think that that means theres more content or something? 3 difficulties of Dragon Soul is not 3 raids just to let you know. Just have lower tiers act as normal modes and be the entry level raids and as people get geared they move into higher tier raids which are harder. I dont see why we need 3 difficulties for each raid (Hard, Normal, and lolz free loot).

Also if you dont raid you shouldnt care about anything that I proposed because it doesnt relate to your playstyle. Like I said raiders are only a small % of the total WoW population so I dont see how people who dont raid would get mad over some small changes that make raiding better and more fun. Also if you dont raid why do you fell the need to be walking around in raid quality gear? During Cata people who never raided should still be in 346 heroic gear as we speak and not 378s and with 397 VP gear. Someone who spent a lot of time clearing Firelands should not see some scrub walking around in the same level of gear because he can do HoTs. Why do you need gear that you wont ever use?

TLR: New raiding system sucks. We have no actual gear progression anymore. We dont need multiple difficulties of the same raid we just need easy raids that progress into harder raids as we get geared for them. We need 10 and 25 man guilds again with 10 man raids dropping lower quality loot and 25 mans dropping better loot. No one enjoys doing the same raid for 6-8 months with no other alternatives why cant we have 2-3 raids per tier?

Unlike the first few people here, i'm not going to troll.

I dont see why the people who do raid are now being punished.
Thats the first problem. Assuming that the focus of the game is changing, its specifically to punish someone. Its a side effect. if they could do everything they would, but they have said multiple times that if they dont think they can do something right , they arent going to do it. Yes if you are a hardcore raider then it is sad that you wont have as much to do as , say, wrath of the lich king. Except you will. Yes you might have fewer raids, but there is tons more to do between raids besides killing boars, farming,and standing around in stormwind.

Blizzard acknowledges the fact that the direction they are going wont make everyone happy. And it is sad that you are one of those people (though , you really should wait to judge till after you play). But the fact of the matter is they are making a huge game even BIGGER. And its really not their fault if people only want to participate in a minority of the game.

Not everyone is going to be in a cutting edge guild with complete mastery of their class. During Vanilla and TBC there were raids designed around that. I didnt raid much during Vanilla so I will just discuss TBC. The lesser geared people started out doing Gruul/Mags/Kara, then moved into SSC/TK, then into Hyjal,BT, and finally Sunwell. Also you had ZA as well. But the great thing is none of those raids were ever made obsolete by heroics like raids are today. People raided Kara until the day Wrath went live for example.

First of all, you are correct in saying "not everyone" . in fact SO correct it should be said "most people". Its a fact that in vanilla wow that you had to be in a Huge guild (or coalition of guilds) in order to do anything big. You had to devote a good 8 hours to it. With so many people, so much drama.
Raiding was a job. a job some people liked. but a job none the less. So you had these huge cool raids which no body did. And no, that isnt an exaggeration. Compared to the amount of people who didnt raid, i believe the amount that did was tiny.

And your point about the different raids is a huge part of it. In that, that is something they DONT want to do.
"Oh?! Sunwell raid is out?! Wow that sounds awesome! What? I dont stand a chance? You all ready have to many well geared people who can go? Well does anyone want to go to BT this week for some gear? .....ZA? ....Kara? Yall are burnt out from Spending 3 days on Sunwell? Well ok. I'll go level my mage then."

I.E. the major point they said was that the way it was before is to do new content it forced you to do old content, even if the majority of your raid got NOTHING out if it and didnt want to do it.

---------- Post added 2012-09-18 at 11:56 AM ----------

Let's see:

Do you like the mechanics of a raid?
Do you enjoy playing it with your guild and friends?
Do you enjoy the story?

If you answered yes to two of more of those questions there is most definitely a point. I don't get the whole "I only enjoy this game if I get better gear every time I play it". Can't you just do it because it's fun to play?

Furthermore: raids aren't the only thing in the game. In the time between content patches you can choose from a plethora of activities to keep you busy. The game isn't moving away from raiding, the game is also getting more stuff added besides raiding.

Actually i did black temple for the first time recently and it was horribly lack luster. I didnt understand what was going on, or the significance of anything. The only thing i got out of it was the small squee moment of finally seeing Illidian (raid mode) and Teron Gorefiend (raid mode) in person.

The fact that a raid or dungeon is a challenge and you get something out of it makes it significant to most people.

SOME people go out to slay the dragon because they can.

MOST people do it for the princess or the Gold.

[Vulgrym]

I know majority of players dont raid but I dont see why the people who do raid are now being punished. To me the game just seems to be moving away from raiding. I will try not to make this too drawn out but theres a few points Id like to hit on.

I've raided since Vanilla. I don't feel punished.

Hard modes are fine, they just need bigger raid tiers. For instance, T11 was excellent, both in terms of quantity and quality of encounters (Sinestra, Nefarian, Cho'gall, Al'akir, the Council fights etc.). T12 was salvaged by one of the greatest progression bosses (and final phases) ever made - Ragnaros. T13 was crap; it was too short and rewarded stacking too much (there's always a little bit of stacking but Spine shone a spotlight on it with its awful design).

I agree with you that Blizzard was short-sighted and, frankly, pretty dumb with regards to how they divided and incented 10 v. 25 man raiding, but meh, overall the quality of raiding really has depended on the tier. At least T14 is looking amazing, reminds me of T11.

[Chrno]

People didn't move into t5 and t6 because t5 and t6 guilds poached their best members, leaving them mired in t4 and t5 content constantly reattuning and regearing new members (only for the t5 guilds to poach from the t4 guilds because they got sick of doing that shit back when they were a t4 feeder guild). That is why Blizzard implemented the option to skip obsolete raids in favor of getting more people into the current raid tier, to discourage guild poaching/leapfrogging and to reduce the number of guilds that got frustrated and quit raiding entirely due to burnout from doing nothing but Kara/Mag/Gruul's and atuunement runs.

My, how quickly so-called raiders forget their own history...

The reason people left was most likely due to your guild.

---------- Post added 2012-09-18 at 12:09 PM ----------

That's it, then? You honestly think the addition of scenarios and challenge mode means there'll be less to raid, and/or raids will be less awesome?

You honestly think that. Right? Just trying to paint a picture here, with the brush of disbelief.

Tuning 3 difficulties instead of just 1 takes allot longer mate, your fooling yourself if you don't think it has an impact on their development team. I don't know how their devolmentteam is splitted up but i can see senario guys working on raids too and in that case Blizz either:
A: works with more manpower on raids then 3 years back.
B: works with the same manpower and thus produce less raids but more difficulties.

just saying,

[marukale]

The reason people left was most likely due to your guild.

---------- Post added 2012-09-18 at 12:09 PM ----------



Tuning 3 difficulties instead of just 1 takes allot longer mate, your fooling yourself if you don't think it has an impact on their development team. I don't know how their devolmentteam is splitted up but i can see senario guys working on raids too and in that case Blizz either:
A: works with more manpower on raids then 3 years back.
B: works with the same manpower and thus produce less raids but more difficulties.

just saying,

Creating 3 different raids of different difficulties takes longer than producing one with 3 different levels of difficulties.

What the OP is asking is that the tiers increase in difficultly like then did in BC where the first tier was easy, second tier was a bit tricky and final tier was hard, so at the end of the expansion everyone has something to do that fits their ability. The problem is that good players are bored through the first 2 tiers and bad players are bored with only raiding one tier for the entire expansion. So despite number of raids or bosses there are less level appropriate encounters for every raider.

In Mop you have:
Those with little skill/time get every boss on LFR at every tier
Those with some skill get every boss on normal at every tier
Those with a lot of skill get every boss on heroic slowly nerfed to their individual level at every tier
Those at the very top of the game get every boss on heroic pre nerfs at every tier

I honestly can't see why anyone would have a problem with this system that doesn't fall into one of the following categories:
1) Doesn't want others to achieve what they have done so they can feel "special"
2) Think they are better than they are, feel that they should be able to achieve heroic clear before nerfs but aren't actually good enough to manage it and so get upset when stuff gets nerfed
3) Joins an expansion half way through and misses out on previous tiers (which has been a valid concern since the release of sunwell back in the "glory days" of BC)

The only group I have any sympathy for is category 3.

So we have more level appropriate encounters for every raider, how are we moving away from raiding?

[FlacidGladiator]

GEAR SNOB ALERT! GEAR SNOG ALERT! WoW isn't moving away from raiding, its doing a great deal to get more people to raid, even if its raiding lite. The OP is another fan-boy gear snob. I thought we eliminated you turds when we got LFR, but no, you cling like dingleberries and no amount of wiping will make us rid of you. Lets get one thing fundamentally understood and I'll use small words so it has a better chance of sinking in. Everyone who pays 15-bucks a month to play this game has the same right to enjoy the content as those who have no lives and raid two or three times a night into the wee hours of the morning. Fundamentally, WOW gets far more money catering to the casuals than they do kowtowing to a tiny minority of gear snob raiders. Bottom line: You guys don't drive this game anymore, we do. Sit in the back or get off the bus.

Keep it civil. You can get your point across without insulting

[dryankem]

GEAR SNOB ALERT! GEAR SNOG ALERT! WoW isn't moving away from raiding, its doing a great deal to get more people to raid, even if its raiding lite. The OP is another fan-boy gear snob. I thought we eliminated you turds when we got LFR, but no, you cling like dingleberries and no amount of wiping will make us rid of you. Lets get one thing fundamentally understood and I'll use small words so it has a better chance of sinking in. Everyone who pays 15-bucks a month to play this game has the same right to enjoy the content as those who have no lives and raid two or three times a night into the wee hours of the morning. Fundamentally, WOW gets far more money catering to the casuals than they do kowtowing to a tiny minority of gear snob raiders. Bottom line: You guys don't drive this game anymore, we do. Sit in the back or get off the bus.

I approve of this message. Really I don't know why people are so bent out of shape over LFR or scenarios or pet battle etc.. It's just a game and the more options we have the better, it actually gives us more things to do and just because you don't like part of the game doesn't mean it's not good for the game. There is nothing required that you do in this game, if you want to pay $15 to fish in stormwind then you should be able to. If you don't like a certain part of this game then don't do it but don't bitch and moan because other people get to try aspects of the game they couldn't before.

Now repeat after me "You are not special, and the game is not made for you". Hopefully that sinks in and you realize that you either enjoy the game or you don't, other people don't matter.

Actually now that I think about it, you're probably the same type of person that complains raids are way too easy because some hardcore guild on another continent downed the boss in a couple weeks, even though you haven't even stepped into that raid.

[Keoren]

Heroic wasnt nerfed.

T11 heroic got nerfed by a lot. It did not get nerfed at the end of the tier but rather during progression, few adjustments at a time.

[Flaks]

So what other things are they doing during with their time when developing a major content patch? Is it really hard for them to give us 2-3 raids per tier rather than 1 raid? Are they trying to make raiders quit? What else would there be to do at max level then if you dont PvP? Without raids there is nothing other than PvP.

Outside of expansion launches, there's literally been no patch in the history of this game that provided multiple tiers/multiple raids.

[Shadylol]

Outside of expansion launches, there's literally been no patch in the history of this game that provided multiple tiers/multiple raids.

Incorrect

1.9 gave us AQ40, and AQ20

[Masser]

"Why is WoW moving away from raiding?"

because raiding is boring.....

[mercutiouk]

Like 90% of the folks in the thread I see little point in making content 5-10% of folks will only attack 2-5 nights a week.

Until LFR the basic setup was that once a content was "old" the gear from it became obtainable by the masses through 5-mans. It gave the raiders something that separated them from the rest of the population.

LFR was added to give "the masses" a taste of the up to date "story" in game. It still only gives about 4 hours a week of entertainment for those that don't raid. A side effect of LFR though is more people interested in raiding. While you may be in a guild that's beating off applications with a stick the majority of wow guilds have experienced quite a shrinking in raid-level talent during cata. This helps address it somewhat by bringing in fresh blood.

Adding a decent amount of other content both gives you something to do the rest of the time you might want to log in (better value for money) AND more content for folks that don't raid. These people that aren't raiding ARE still buying/selling stuff on the AH which makes the economy a little more sensible in game. They are also paying customers which gives Blizz more money to (hopefully) throw at their developers to give us nice things.

You DO appear rather blinkered and "oh my, my post got noticed, I'll keep playing the same line as it seems a popular one".

[SL1200]

Also JPs/VPs should not be rewarded for completing 5 mans.

You lost me right there. I like running 5 mans and being rewarded with points. Without the points you got no reason to run 5 mans after you've out geared them.

[Yig]

Hmm, let's fix that analogy.

Baker: "In addition to loafs of bread and cake, we're now selling donuts! Yet, to be able to do this we are now selling 30% less loafs and they will be out every other day, rather than every morning."

Herpaderp: OWWW IT DOESN'T MATTER, EVEN IF YOU ASK ME TO PAY YOU FOR ME TO COOK YOU BREAD I WILL DO IT CAUSE I THINK YOU ARE THE BEST OOOOH.

people are satisfied with whatever they get, so let them be satisfied.

The players of this game, actually in general, gamers deserve the "teacher" attitude shown by Bliz. Show me another company who speaks to their customers in an educating, downlooking and disrespectful attitude and has 10 million or more customers.

Except there's going to also be more loafs of bread, and more cake, along with new donuts, SO HOW THE FUCK do you think this analogy applies?

[Deleted]

Wow has set coarse to a new direction and if you find yourselves being on the opposite side, I am afraid there is nothing to do about it, just quit as I did. I dont like this design of raiding, nor simplified classes, content, everything. Who knows, maybe this Arcade Wow success, maybe not, maybe they turn back to its roots, maybe not.

But people are lazy, want Everything and Fast I am afraid. Arcade style will prevail and wow slowly turns into some CoD style.

---------- Post added 2012-09-20 at 07:44 PM ----------

Couldn't agree more OP. All of the responses I'm seeing just goes to show that all the original WoW players are long gone and all that's left is the wrath-babies and beyond.

That is quite accurate I would say

[Golden Yak]

This sums it up. I enjoy this response. It made my day, but it is only the morning so maybe other things will make my day too.

It takes a thousand moments to make a day.