1. #2021
    My previous posts about the mastery debate is aimed towards trading mastery for haste to reach the BP / use frost armor.

    While Cycobi in your gear you are able to hit 9.7k haste easily without losing any mastery ( Which is nice ) , not everyone uses or has black blood + ToT Haste belt + Haste ring.

    Take out the black blood and suddenly you might have to lose mastery to obtain the 9.7k rating.

    I know in my gear, in which i'm using toxic totem I won't be able to hit 9.7k haste without dumping mastery via reforging or gems / enchants.

    Now is losing mastery to obtain that haste rating worth it? That is what I would like to know.

    I'm still an advocate of using mage armor on any fight that isn't strictly single target though, it just makes sense in most cases.

    But If I passively had the haste rating you have, It would probably be different.
    Last edited by Zavri; 2013-10-04 at 06:22 PM.

  2. #2022
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxkoby View Post
    I would like to know if we need to unequip Purified Bindings of Immerseus to reach the haste breakpoint, or should we take into consideration the amplified haste it provides?
    Quote Originally Posted by muld77 View Post
    As the effect is permanent and not proc based there is no need to reach the breakpoint (if that's what you want) without factoring it in. So yea, just leave it on and work out your haste .
    Dont know if it's me misunderstanding you muld but;

    the amped stats from BoI will part of the stats shown when hoovering over haste in your character pane, when trinket is equipped. So just make sure its over 9762

    you can also move trinket to bags, and do the calculations for pre amp breakpoint(will make it easier for reforge). You can find a chart for the actual % amp for each version of BoI a few pages back. simply find the one you have, and calculate for it, i got my hc trinket yday so for me it's:

    9762 / 1,085140 = 8996,07. So 8997 or higher. Before equipping the trinket.


    On another note for the whole mage/frost armor. So the summarize for the discussion is?. Use 9762 and change accordingly if you can reach 9762 without loosing mastery. And if you are not able to reach 9762 use mage armor constantly and forge for max mastery?, or do we still use the frost armor on single target because of the gained haste but without xtra tick?

    Reason I ask is i got totem last night, so no more hydra and loads of haste. so I am not able to reach it in any way. Think the highest i can go is around 8900 after amp.

  3. #2023
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    Quote Originally Posted by muld77 View Post
    Feel free to ignore logic if it supports your argument...

    You have failed to take into account its 1 extra AB every 90 seconds single target (roughly, see above). So you need to factor in 90 seconds worth of lost mastery, so feel free to come back when you have confirmed that 90 seconds worth of 3000 (and probably more due to reforge) mastery is less than (in your example) 450k. Also to complicate matters you also have to add back on the gained DPS from frost armor during that same period. The problem is nobody has actually worked this out yet hence the argument, I am happy to be proven either way by sound maths. I'm not even going to go into the amount of flaws in taking the AMR values and assigning a static figure to them as the link above suggests.




    Also, once again people, reaching the cap does NOT (REPEAT NOT) increase the DPS of Living Bomb!! It increase the DPET, thus gaining GCD's. You just need to refresh it more (around 4 times more in a 6 minute fight (single target).


    The target becomes a Living Bomb, taking 4288 (+ 321.44% of Spell power) Fire damage over 12 sec. When this effect ends, or the target dies, it explodes to deal an additional [0.1 * 4288 ( + 321.44% of Spell power)

    - - - Updated - - -



    Need to see your gear really to answer this, what set bonus' do you have available? (which tier, assume T16) Arcane "should" outperform frost assuming both have optimal gear, if you have no set bonus' equipped for either tier or high haste and low mastery then yes you will be doing more dps as frost as the set bonus matters least for frost. Unless you pick a route and stick to it though you will end up with non optimal stats for both specs.
    I have t15 4 set. If I stay frost I can use t16 2 set with t15 2 set..If that's viable.

    But yeah frost is way out-performing arcane with t15 4 set lol

  4. #2024
    Ok so i went frost for a while since they buffed them and it has been nice but, I miss my turret so I went back to arcane with full mastery build since I can't reach the breakpoints yet. Now I dropped my 4set T15 and went 2Set T16. Now I know this changes the rotation a bit. What is exactly the rotation we want to go for.
    This is just what I have been doing. Let meknow if I am wrong

    AB to 4 w/ Missles in between.
    If I have more than 2 stack Profound Magic I AB again at 4 stack
    Then Barrage
    Now of course I have bomb and all my CD's in between.
    Just a rough draft. I would like to know.

  5. #2025
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    I have t15 4 set. If I stay frost I can use t16 2 set with t15 2 set..If that's viable.

    But yeah frost is way out-performing arcane with t15 4 set lol
    Not sure if serious...

    But if you are serious, link your armory if you don't mind. I'm curious.
    Last edited by Zavri; 2013-10-05 at 12:24 AM.

  6. #2026
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    But yeah frost is way out-performing arcane with t15 4 set lol
    this simply isnt the case at all. On any level of play.

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/60/default/ - Arcane is 3rd, Frost is way down the bottom
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/60/default/ - Arcane is 2nd, Frost is way down the bottom

    In all of them Arcane is near the top, while frost is near the bottom. Even LFR.

  7. #2027
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zavri View Post
    Not sure if serious...

    But if you are serious, link your armory if you don't mind. I'm curious.

    It's all frost gemmed and stuff now. I wish I had the logs to share with you guys. But I don't lol. We weren't logging this weeks flex run.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zatetic View Post
    this simply isnt the case at all. On any level of play.

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/60/default/ - Arcane is 3rd, Frost is way down the bottom
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/60/default/ - Arcane is 2nd, Frost is way down the bottom

    In all of them Arcane is near the top, while frost is near the bottom. Even LFR.

    Raidbots would be useful if the same amt of people on the same skill lvl played frost that do arcane. Unfortunately it isn't the case. So you can't compare it.

    Let me show you guys a mage from our server that's destroying as frost.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ne/?s=15&e=323

    My numbers are not up to his since he does have more gear. However they're only about 30-40k away as frost. As arcane they're much further away. And I play arcane pretty well too.

    I would however completely agree that with more gear arcane definitely is much better. Im not sure where the threshold is. I've seen a lot of arcane mages do really well but much higher gear..

    There has to be certain items or a breakpoint where arcane seems to really excel over frost. It's difficult to tell.
    Last edited by Vynestra; 2013-10-05 at 06:51 AM.

  8. #2028
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    It's all frost gemmed and stuff now. I wish I had the logs to share with you guys. But I don't lol. We weren't logging this weeks flex run.
    Raidbots would be useful if the same amt of people on the same skill lvl played frost that do arcane. Unfortunately it isn't the case. So you can't compare it.

    Let me show you guys a mage from our server that's destroying as frost.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ne/?s=15&e=323

    My numbers are not up to his since he does have more gear. However they're only about 30-40k away as frost. As arcane they're much further away. And I play arcane pretty well too.

    I would however completely agree that with more gear arcane definitely is much better. Im not sure where the threshold is. I've seen a lot of arcane mages do really well but much higher gear..

    There has to be certain items or a breakpoint where arcane seems to really excel over frost. It's difficult to tell.
    280k on iron jugg is a lot lower than arcane. I mean, I'm doing 290k as arcane and I still have 2 ToT trinks and a 522(2/2) chest. I'm like 552 ilvl (and also I'm not that good. I'm lucky to get a top 100 rank on 4 fights in a tier). Give arcane SoO trinks and frost doesnt even compare on most fights.

    It isnt a bad spec anymore by any means, but it isnt competitive with arcane from what ive seen assuming equal gear.

  9. #2029
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    It's all frost gemmed and stuff now. I wish I had the logs to share with you guys. But I don't lol. We weren't logging this weeks flex run.






    Raidbots would be useful if the same amt of people on the same skill lvl played frost that do arcane. Unfortunately it isn't the case. So you can't compare it.

    Let me show you guys a mage from our server that's destroying as frost.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ne/?s=15&e=323

    My numbers are not up to his since he does have more gear. However they're only about 30-40k away as frost. As arcane they're much further away. And I play arcane pretty well too.

    I would however completely agree that with more gear arcane definitely is much better. Im not sure where the threshold is. I've seen a lot of arcane mages do really well but much higher gear..

    There has to be certain items or a breakpoint where arcane seems to really excel over frost. It's difficult to tell.
    You realized you linked a normal log right? Especially for normal 280k is on no way, shape or form destroying.

  10. #2030
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    It's all frost gemmed and stuff now. I wish I had the logs to share with you guys. But I don't lol. We weren't logging this weeks flex run.






    Raidbots would be useful if the same amt of people on the same skill lvl played frost that do arcane. Unfortunately it isn't the case. So you can't compare it.

    Let me show you guys a mage from our server that's destroying as frost.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ne/?s=15&e=323

    My numbers are not up to his since he does have more gear. However they're only about 30-40k away as frost. As arcane they're much further away. And I play arcane pretty well too.

    I would however completely agree that with more gear arcane definitely is much better. Im not sure where the threshold is. I've seen a lot of arcane mages do really well but much higher gear..

    There has to be certain items or a breakpoint where arcane seems to really excel over frost. It's difficult to tell.
    Why on earth are you linking mage logs of a normal mode raider on your server playing frost, to try and prove a point?

  11. #2031
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    Yeah I didn't take a look at the heroic fights they've downed. However my guild is currently 1/14 H. We aren't 10/14 H pushing hardcore progression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zatetic View Post
    280k on iron jugg is a lot lower than arcane. I mean, I'm doing 290k as arcane and I still have 2 ToT trinks and a 522(2/2) chest. I'm like 552 ilvl (and also I'm not that good. I'm lucky to get a top 100 rank on 4 fights in a tier). Give arcane SoO trinks and frost doesnt even compare on most fights.

    It isnt a bad spec anymore by any means, but it isnt competitive with arcane from what ive seen assuming equal gear.
    I can't do more than like 230-235k on iron juggernaut when I had about i547ish ilvl lol. And I am not bad at playing arcane -- But from what I saw in comparison frost was performing higher for me. Maybe it was because I was losing too much mastery to hit the haste breakpoint? idk =( lol. My dark shaman dps was about on par with you however. So idk why I was so far behind on fricken iron juggernaut.

    Another thing is that your guild is ending the fights quicker than mine b/c of more dps. Ugh idk anymore lol.

    I am just confused as to why I was doing more as frost than arcane at any rate.

    So confused. So many questions and so few answers.

  12. #2032
    I did 255k dps in an alt/PuG SoO run as arcane on Iron Juggernaut. Log
    This was with 544 gear (547 now, but not at the time) - my gear is not optimised for arcane really and I have some god-awful trinkets. Armoury link

    If you're only doing 230-235k dps in a proper guild run as arcane, you should really be looking at your rotation and making sure you're not blowing your mana out too much. You can't use that to claim frost is better than arcane; especially when all you have is yourself to back it up.

  13. #2033
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kendeura View Post
    I did 255k dps in an alt/PuG SoO run as arcane on Iron Juggernaut. Log
    This was with 544 gear (547 now, but not at the time) - my gear is not optimised for arcane really and I have some god-awful trinkets. Armoury link

    If you're only doing 230-235k dps in a proper guild run as arcane, you should really be looking at your rotation and making sure you're not blowing your mana out too much. You can't use that to claim frost is better than arcane; especially when all you have is yourself to back it up.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=13927&e=14263

    What in the world am I doing wrong lol. It has to be that i'm losing too much mastery going for the haste cap. I don't know what else it could be.

    My LB up-time is 98.7% on that fight. A few % higher than yours.


    Comparing the logs it HAS to be the fact im losing way too much mastery. It has to be it. My spells are not hitting hard enough, and I'm only gaining a few extra spall casts for it.
    Last edited by Vynestra; 2013-10-06 at 02:17 AM.

  14. #2034
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=13927&e=14263

    What in the world am I doing wrong lol. It has to be that i'm losing too much mastery going for the haste cap. I don't know what else it could be.

    My LB up-time is 98.7% on that fight. A few % higher than yours.


    Comparing the logs it HAS to be the fact im losing way too much mastery. It has to be it. My spells are not hitting hard enough, and I'm only gaining a few extra spall casts for it.
    t15 4p is big
    13k+ mast is big
    breath > wushulays in my experience.

  15. #2035
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zatetic View Post
    t15 4p is big
    13k+ mast is big
    breath > wushulays in my experience.
    I have t15 normal 4 piece not heroic. I have kardris' and heroic tf wushoolays. So idk. As full mastery arcane I can sit on a dummy and do like 220-230k dps alone w/o raid buffs. I'm think i'll test my full mastery build in raid this week. If I'm not satisfied then i'll try frost. Hoping for a big dps increase.

    Gonna run with full mastery this week and ill link the logs. Cannot wait and hopefully i'll wreck my old dps by a lot. If I can do 260k ish or more i'll be happy with this. Hoping for even more than that, but I feel like that is realistic at i549 with N t15. I am one piece away from t16 N 4 set. Should get it this week. Which'll increase my ilvl by like 6..lol Possibly more depending which other piece I get.
    Last edited by Vynestra; 2013-10-06 at 02:41 AM.

  16. #2036
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    I know I'm pretty late to the party but anyone mentioned/taken into account the fact that under LUST (+meta proc) we're GCD capped on AB ?
    This alone makes me think that the frost armor is a total waste of stats.

    (also i'm playing troll, so berserking makes it even more of a disaster. With 9762 haste, frost armor, raid haste, meta proc, lust and racial I can go as low as 0.7sec for a AB ... maybe lower i'll have to check it)

    EDIT : typo mage => frost
    Last edited by mmoceb381e0edb; 2013-10-06 at 02:58 PM.

  17. #2037
    Quote Originally Posted by Neow View Post
    This alone makes me think that the mage armor is a total waste of stats.
    Do you mean Frost Armor?

  18. #2038
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neow View Post
    This alone makes me think that the mage armor is a total waste of stats.

    (also i'm playing troll, so berserking makes it even more of a disaster. With 9762 haste, frost armor, raid haste, meta proc, lust and racial I can go as low as 0.7sec for a AB ... maybe lower i'll have to check it)
    First off think you got that mage armor out wrong?
    And 2end off, meta+lust is going to be a maximum of 26s/fight if your lucky and get two procs during hero, otherwise you should not run into gcd problems for the remaining ~5m44s(avg zerk timer).

  19. #2039
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    Do you mean Frost Armor?
    Ahah of course -_-

    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    And 2end off, meta+lust is going to be a maximum of 26s/fight if your lucky and get two procs during hero, otherwise you should not run into gcd problems for the remaining ~5m44s(avg zerk timer).
    That's indeed 26sec. Add alter time on top of that, and that's 31sec. It's also our most bursty 31sec of the fight, where frost armor will be a total waste while mage armour would give you an added 10% mastery.
    Then again people weren't very convincing in the superiority of either amors, if they are pretty close to each other this would make me lean more towards mage. Also as I've said, I'm also troll and any use of berserking is similar to lust in haste so that's another few seconds of GCD capping for me.

  20. #2040
    Quote Originally Posted by Neow View Post
    Ahah of course -_-



    That's indeed 26sec. Add alter time on top of that, and that's 31sec. It's also our most bursty 31sec of the fight, where frost armor will be a total waste while mage armour would give you an added 10% mastery.
    Then again people weren't very convincing in the superiority of either amors, if they are pretty close to each other this would make me lean more towards mage. Also as I've said, I'm also troll and any use of berserking is similar to lust in haste so that's another few seconds of GCD capping for me.
    If that's the way you see it and you want to use MA over FA, that's on you. I would like to just point out that quite a few of the top parsing mashes in the world are using frost armor without gcd capping becominga game breaking issue. Will we gcd cap? Yes we will. Well those few seconds of disadvantage outweigh the massive advantage of an extra bomb tick? No

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