Arcane Mage PvE Guide

[Ratok]

Because of the way mastery works the actual math is a little more complicated than that, but that's the basic idea.

I made an Excel-Sheet with the math behind using FA or MA with Mana Adept mastery.
Download it and adjust the cells with the cursive text.

http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/c...YV3c&usp#gid=0

Conclusion #1
dif. FA/MA ~ avg. LB dmg
double avg LB dmg -> double dif. FA/MA
example: LB1 10000 to LB2 20000 -> dif. FA/MA LB1+mastery 10033,33 to dif. FA/MA LB2+mastery 20066,66; if mana% 100
-> the bigger the avg. LB hits (more gear; Int proc ...), the bigger the dif. FA/MA

Conclusion #2
if mastery pts. >10200 (50%), then delta E(8…10)/I(3…5) is positive
delta E(8…10)/I(3…5) ~ mana%
double mana% -> double delta E(8…10)/I(3…5)
example: mana% 50 to mana% 100 -> delta E8/I3 16,66 to 33,33; for LB1 = 10000
-> the more mana% you have, the bigger the dif. FA/MA

if mastery pts. <10200 (50%), then delta E(8…10)/I(3…5) is negative
delta E(8…10)/I(3…5) ~ mana%
double mana% -> double delta E(8…10)/I(3…5)
example: mana% 50 to mana% 100 -> delta E8/I3 -16,66 to -33,33; for LB1 = 10000
-> the more mana% you have, the smaller the dif. FA/MA

if mastery pts. =10200 (50%), then delta E(8…10)/I(3…5) is 0
delta E(8…10)/I(3…5) = const.
mana% is wayne
-> dmg gain through FA (dif. FA/MA) equals avg. LB dmg

Conclusion #3
dif. FA/MA ~ mastery pts.
-> the more mastery pts. (more gear; proc ...), the bigger the dif. FA/MA

More gear means FA gets better and better (Conclusion #1 and #3) and if you have more than 10200 mastery pts., then FA gets even better the more mana% you have (Conclusion #2); all in relation to MA.
But: this is just for LB; with NT MA scales a lot better (adjust my sheet and you will see that with >~75% mana MA is better than FA)

I need to add, that I achieved various WoL ranks (< #3) in 25m hc, but I never played with FA. The reason is, first of all: this is just LB dmg, nothing is said about overall dmg.
For a pure ST fight (and there is only one in SoO) like Iron Juggernaut, FA is maybe better than MA overall (a lot better for LB dmg, no doubt).
I tried it in the first heroic ID and got worse results than with MA (could be bad luck) and never tried it again.
But for every other fight I can't see any real advantage of 7% haste compared to 10% (*PBoI value) mastery.
Haste does nearly nothing while AoE'ing (and there are severel scenarios where I use AE and CoC), while 10% mastery is often a flat 10% dmg increase in this cases.
Same with Arcane Barrage, as it hits harder because of 10% mastery and not because of 7% haste. Okay, you get stacks a little bit faster which could mean more Barrages in the same time compared to MA, but there are many factores that could lead in the end to the exact same hits of Barrage in this time, like: spam AE and use ABar at 4 stacks.
In this scenario haste does nothing, while more mastery means more dmg.

Has anybody managed to figure out if 2 piece T16 +WF off pieces is better than 4 piece?

Here is my BiS list.
http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/c...QdlE&usp#gid=0

And here the BiS list with 4p T16 made by voltaa.
http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/c...0emdWR3c#gid=0

You can't realy compare these two lists, because in voltaa's sheet are many failures (for example missing enchants or false calculations).
But 3 of the T16 pieces have crit and haste on it, which is very bad as arcane.
So you want to replace this tokens with mastery/x items, and I think this will have better results (especially on a non ST fight).
I consider the 2p realy strong and nice, and the 4p relatively bad and unreliable.
This is just my "feel" about this set, haven't done the real math yet (but I have 4p in my bags with 3hc items).

http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/...arak/Trolltok/

p.s. need 10 posts to post real links, sry

[voltaa]

snip

I edited your links so they should be clickable now.

First off thank you for the spreadsheet, that saves me the work that I was going to probably have to sit down and do today, and it wouldn't have come out as presentable, that's for sure.

As for my BiS list, that was made at the beginning of the tier, and has to be updated (the gemming situation needs to be converted to expertise gems rather than int)

While my list uses 4 crit pieces, only 2 of them don't have mastery. I know it is a mastery loss in the end but the question we need to answer is what is the dps value (approx) of the 4 set and can sitting at high stacks outweigh the mastery loss.

I am going to update my spreadsheet today to see how much mastery I can gain by swapping some things around and maybe fix up some of the formulas (the original formulas are all just copied straight from cycobi's original spreadsheet)

Edit: I haven't put it all in the spreadsheet yet, but with the 4 piece rather than off-pieces, the post amp value for mastery is 20306. With a 2k mastery loss I feel that for consistency 2set + WF will be the way to go, but for maximum damage (RNG dependant) 4 set will win out, either way it looks to be quite close depending on your luck with procs.

[Ratok]

Yes, the 4 set is RNG dependant, but I think the 4p is only on a ST fight comparable.
The 2k mastery (and a lot more Int) will outdmg the 4p on any fight with cleave or AoE'ing (also because the 4p is only ST dmg gain).

[Deleted]

-snip-

The maths itself is correct; but the Mastery values are (in actuality) off as you're not factoring in Mastery buff from the raid. Doesn't make a huge difference to the results, though.

I need to add, that I achieved various WoL ranks (< #3) in 25m hc, but I never played with FA. The reason is, first of all: this is just LB dmg, nothing is said about overall dmg.

Without wishing to be rude, here, and I certainly don't intend to be, but I would take ranks this (relatively) early on in a tier with a pinch of salt; it's not hard to get fed gear in a 25M setting (which, having checked your Armory at the time of your ranks, you were) and then blast parses out early. I wouldn't use them as a credential, in all honesty.

-snip-

The one mistake you're making (and I see made often; I myself used to make it) is that you think Mage Armor adds 10% damage because it's 10% Mastery.
10% Mastery != 10% damage, and it's actually pretty easy to show you why:

Say you're at 10K Mastery; not exactly "high" for this Tier. Raid buffed you'll be at 60% Mastery. With Mage Armor, you'd be at 70% Mastery.
Assuming you're able to stay at 100% Mana, with FA your multiplier would be 1.6, with MA 1.7

100*1.6 = 160
100*1.7 = 170

1-(160/170) = 0.0588

So in reality, you're "gaining" 5.9% damage when you're at 100% mana, despite the fact you're gaining 10% Mastery.

This trend goes on as you get more and more gear:

100*2 = 200
100*1.9 = 190

1-(190/200) = 0.05

People need to understand that Mastery suffers from diminishing returns. Sure, Haste has diminishing returns too, especially when you're getting close to GCD-cap, but people need to stop thinking that "10% Mastery = 10% Damage".

The reality is that due to various reasons (such as Mana return, DoT ticks and more casts throughout a fight), Haste and Mastery are roughly equal in terms of stat weight. Therefore, due to the gaining returns you get from Frost Armor, I argue that it's better purely because you're gaining more "stat value". That's just my argument.

[voltaa]

Yes, the 4 set is RNG dependant, but I think the 4p is only on a ST fight comparable.
The 2k mastery (and a lot more Int) will outdmg the 4p on any fight with cleave or AoE'ing (also because the 4p is only ST dmg gain).

I agree completely, it's already very easy on a fight like protectors to stay at max charges while just dumping missiles sans 4 set. I think this may come down to a "2 BiS's" sort of situation where you would want the 4 set for fights like IJ and Shamans but 3 WF offset for the majority of the instance.

Regardless I reworked my old 4 set list and corrected some minor things statwise and gem wise so here it is.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...UcjBRZEE#gid=0

One thing I noticed about your BiS list is that you are missing a yellow gem on your belt in the prismatic, minor thing, but would boost the mastery even more.

Where I lose mastery over your list, I trade it off as haste, which in a single target situation is very close in value to mastery.

[Chilbot]

So do we want our four set for arcane or don't we. I am a little confused on it. (Not how the four set works thanks to Voltaa but, just if I just stick with 2 set on every other fight and only 4 set on Multi target fights?

[Ratok]

Look at I26. :P

[voltaa]

Look at I26. :P

Ah, missed that, fixed it on mine

[Zatetic]

I dont know how you guys can weave at 4 stacks for so long with just the 2p. Going AM AB AM AB by the time I do the third AM AB i'm dipping quite low in mana and it doesnt seem to recover enough by the time I get back up to 4 stack. If I then get 2 more AM procs and repeat, it dips even further. I've found it much more stable to go AM AB AM AM AB (procs permitting). Otherwise I have to skip the additional 2nd AB at each second 4 stack in order to maintain my mana.

I personally dont like the feeling of our 2 set. Maybe with the 4 set it'll become a little less of a pain but without it, it just seems to eat my mana rather more rapidly than I can recover and if I dont notice early on, I'm then stuck in a conserve phase using AM procs at 2 stacks in order to get back up to 90+%.

I'd be hella keen for some tips on managing this as I feel since I swapped from 4p t15hc to 2p/2p that my damage has dropped significantly and to be quite frank, I'm atrocious. I have a lot more gear than I did have with t15hc and my damage is basically the same/less.

Here are two logs from the only early fights that can be counted. I would appreciate anyone looking at them and seeing if I'm doing something wrong.

Fallen Protectors: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r.../?s=842&e=1402
Iron Jugg (cheese strat skipping whole of p2): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1849&e=2278

[Kendeura]

Is KTT truly better than BBoY with T16HC? I can totally understand KTT with T15, but I'm having my doubts about KTT>BBoY with T16...

[Deleted]

I dont get the BBoY love from mages when our dots are ~11-13s duration tbh. Higher total uptime should be the only argument.

And btw KTT avg out the same dmg if your doing few high hitting spells or dots, because you get more procs from dots, KTT will always avg out to be the same % of total damage.

[Zatetic]

I dont get the BBoY love from mages when our dots are ~11-13s duration tbh. Higher total uptime should be the only argument.

And btw KTT avg out the same dmg if your doing few high hitting spells or dots, because you get more procs from dots, KTT will always avg out to be the same % of total damage.

It could be the static haste reforging. Gives you a lot of room for offpieces with no hit or gives you some extra mastery. It isnt so bad. KTT procs a lot though. like a whole lot, ive noticed.

[Deleted]

It could be the static haste reforging. Gives you a lot of room for offpieces with no hit or gives you some extra mastery. It isnt so bad. KTT procs a lot though. like a whole lot, ive noticed.

Yup my record is 4 procs in a row.. Nothing like clipping your dot because totem proc is on 0.5s just to see it go from 0.5s to 10s again, do that clip 3 times with trinket proccing and your like Meh >.<

Also when making the comparison i feel you should do KTT HC vs. BBoY normal. Because once you get Bboy hc race is over..

[Zatetic]

Yup my record is 4 procs in a row.. Nothing like clipping your dot because totem proc is on 0.5s just to see it go from 0.5s to 10s again, do that clip 3 times with trinket proccing and your like Meh >.<

Also when making the comparison i feel you should do KTT HC vs. BBoY normal. Because once you get Bboy hc race is over..

tbh we will kill dark shaman hc tonight and even if hc KTT dropped I'd still prefer norm BBoY. I like running extra haste. I feel safer as a caster with quicker casts even if it is a small damage loss.

[Zavri]

The only time I actually enjoy our 4pc is when it chain procs during your opener for alter time and everything else.

Outside of that, the 4pc is really meh.

I'm definitely going 2pc only when I can. Which will be chest/gloves for tier.

[Medsashi]

Is the info on the guide outdated? I mean, those with bindings should gem mastery +expertise on red?

[Deleted]

The maths itself is correct; but the Mastery values are (in actuality) off as you're not factoring in Mastery buff from the raid. Doesn't make a huge difference to the results, though.



Without wishing to be rude, here, and I certainly don't intend to be, but I would take ranks this (relatively) early on in a tier with a pinch of salt; it's not hard to get fed gear in a 25M setting (which, having checked your Armory at the time of your ranks, you were) and then blast parses out early. I wouldn't use them as a credential, in all honesty.



The one mistake you're making (and I see made often; I myself used to make it) is that you think Mage Armor adds 10% damage because it's 10% Mastery.
10% Mastery != 10% damage, and it's actually pretty easy to show you why:

Say you're at 10K Mastery; not exactly "high" for this Tier. Raid buffed you'll be at 60% Mastery. With Mage Armor, you'd be at 70% Mastery.
Assuming you're able to stay at 100% Mana, with FA your multiplier would be 1.6, with MA 1.7

100*1.6 = 160
100*1.7 = 170

1-(160/170) = 0.0588

So in reality, you're "gaining" 5.9% damage when you're at 100% mana, despite the fact you're gaining 10% Mastery.

This trend goes on as you get more and more gear:

100*2 = 200
100*1.9 = 190

1-(190/200) = 0.05

People need to understand that Mastery suffers from diminishing returns. Sure, Haste has diminishing returns too, especially when you're getting close to GCD-cap, but people need to stop thinking that "10% Mastery = 10% Damage".

The reality is that due to various reasons (such as Mana return, DoT ticks and more casts throughout a fight), Haste and Mastery are roughly equal in terms of stat weight. Therefore, due to the gaining returns you get from Frost Armor, I argue that it's better purely because you're gaining more "stat value". That's just my argument.

For the avoidance of doubt
Is that conclusion for NT as well as LB ?

[Deleted]

For an Arcane mage ( i swapped over from fire this week, i was getting fed up with shit pyro procs when i have 55% crit ) i see people run with Mage Armor and Frost Armor, what is the best kind of choice? I haven't played arcane at all this expansion, armory link is below

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Karudo/simple

[Deleted]

For an Arcane mage ( i swapped over from fire this week, i was getting fed up with shit pyro procs when i have 55% crit ) i see people run with Mage Armor and Frost Armor, what is the best kind of choice? I haven't played arcane at all this expansion, armory link is below

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Karudo/simple

It is pretty much up to yourself. But it is often stated, and said that you should run Frost Armor + Living Bomb on single target fights. And Mage armor+Nether tempest on any fight that includes 2 or more targets. Or atleast a fight where you can cleave.

Don't forget to reach the Haste-breakpoint for Nether Tempest at 9762 though. (The Living Bomb breakpoint with Frost Armor is somewhere around 9500+)

[Zatetic]

What I've noticed this late in the tier, is that outside of spoils, everything dies too quickly to warrant using nt (because of 8+ weeks of gear). My guild spreads Fallen Protectors, so lb is a gain there. It really doesnt seem necessary to switch between ma/fa and nt/lb anymore outside of heroic progression on a couple of fights.