MoP 5man heroic.

[Matson]

there are several way to make content last longer

- more content (tbc has 15 heroics dungeon, mop has 9)
- longer (TBC dungeon were 45min to 1h30 with decent group, mop dungeon gold medal are about 10-20minute)
- harder (again TBC were way harder)
- replayability (on this, maybe the challenge mode will incite some replayability)

but overall, i feel the 5 man content will be explored far more quickly in MoP than it has in TBC. It's easier, shorter, and there are less. Add to that it's nowadays easier to form a group via group finder (not that is a bad thing), only the challenge mode will offer some replayability for those players with a competitive spirit.

I know they are other content than 5-man, the most important one would be pet battle, but it's an MMO, player like to play together. 5 man is the easiest and fastest way to get a multiplayer gaming experiance in that game. That is why it's so popular.

Some people may like how the 5 man heroics are currently design, but still, i'm kind concern that this content will get old real fast. MAybe the challenge mode will advert this?

Well atleast I like to use the time when I get to play to upgrade my character somehow. Be it leveling , gearing , or professions. Challenge mode is not part of this. I should have extra time if I wanted to do challenge modes.
Normal dungeons/heroic dungeons are something that everyone has to do. For this reason they shouldn't be too easy :/ ( not too hard either)

[tibben]

Have people already reached the point of doing Heroics? I am not even level 86 yet... I know the Heroics are designed to be easier than Cata's were at launch, but not super easy.

They're supposed to be equivalent in difficulty to normal Cata dungeons. If you can get into the heroic based on your item level then if you fail you should probably find a new game to play that doesn't require the use of hands or brain.

[Starscreamer]

All the heroics are easy mode wrath style. Most pugs when I go in are trying to do all the Dungeon Hero achieves and those don't even make alot of the fights hard either.

[Viertel]

Well there is one huge point I actually missed. I am playing those dungeons with a group of friends, and those guys remember the tactics from retail BC. But most of them are still in their greens so we do have lot's of wipes. And about 2 shotting tank, I haven't gotten this ( I am the tank). Though I made it sure I don't enter the heroics before I have the defense cap and 10k unbuffed HP, so with this I have to disagree with you. Our wipes are usually caused by either me pulling too many without CC or someone ninjapulling the mobs. Since I got stronger gear , the bosses haven't been much of a problem. They hit hard but the mechanics are easier. Instead I remember having 1-2h wipefest in many bosses in Cataclysm. Like 2nd and last boss of Grim Batol, 2nd and 3rd boss of Blackrock Caverns, That fireboss and last boss of ZA, panther boss and last boss of ZG... etc etc..
Ohh and when it comes to normal modes, they were harder in BC yes.

You probably understood my point wrong about gearing making things easier in BC. Getting gear in BC was much slower, and the gear upgrades were smaller. This means you don't outgear the content as quickly. Which means your main problem was being undergeared much longer. BUT when you finally got the gear, the dungeons started to be easier. In Cataclysm I geared up WAY faster but that didn't remove the problem we had. Some players still not understanding the boss mechanics. Those ended up being roadblocks in our runs. In BC my groups disbanded usually because someone said as soon as we started :"LoL your gear sucks guys, good luck having your fail run". In Cataclysm, I remember many players saying after a wipe in a harder boss: " F**king retards. I won't get this boss down with you idiots.. I'm off -.- "

Your post shows you clearly didn't start at the beginning of TBC.

TBC heroics (upon LAUNCH) were downright brutal and were one of the only times in WoW's history that 5 mans were dedicated to optimal group compositions because of this. Paladin or Druid tanks were clearly superior for holding hate and staying alive (unnerfed LotP heal, old holy shield charge systems). Groups commonly shouted for Druid healers because of HoTs on the move, multiple mages for polymorph (the only reliable CC at the time), and absolutely zero melee DPS classes if possible. TBC launch heroics were the entire reason chain cleave mechanic was overhauled and gotten rid of -- the DPS just flat out died on packs through no fault of their own; the heroics are the *reason* High King Maulgar's Cleave was removed and replaced with Arcing Smash.

Gear in TBC didn't make the heroics easier on the scale that they have done in later iterations of WoW. The gear stat climb in TBC was slow, small, and controlled. Plus, there's also that fact that for all of the 70 dungeons there was absolutely no difference in gear because the 70 normal and heroic dungeons had the exact same loot tables outside of the epic gems (unique-equipped at the time!) and the one epic the final boss could drop. Plus, upon launch only the final boss dropped any badges at all which made the gearing process that much slower.

Plus, your stats as a tank are pretty false too: a tank with quested greens would still have around 11K health and after heroic blues around 13K with gems. The concept of 2-shotting a tank in heroics was common and well known and it's the reason that druid tanks were so popular -- they could literally cap out their armor threshold to 75% reduction with crafted gear and a good weapon and then just stack the utter fuck out of stamina. The Felguards that MSed for 12-15K and dropped hate every second (two at a time mind you!) in Blood Furnace, the dogs in Shattered Halls that put a 4K a tick stacking rend, the common trend of launch Shadow Labs that usually had 20+ stealthed assassins that would one shot healers before you could do anything, and the dragon at the end of Ramparts that some tacks actually used fire resistance on because his breath hit that fucking hard upon launch. These are just a *handful* of the mobs that made tanking an absolute bitch during those first two months of the expansion.

TBC heroics underwent five waves of nerfs for a very good reason through the first patch of that expansion. PUGing was something very, very little of the server populace did because it simply wasn't worth the headache.

[Matson]

Gear in TBC didn't make the heroics easier on the scale that they have done in later iterations of WoW. The gear stat climb in TBC was slow, small, and controlled. Plus, there's also that fact that for all of the 70 dungeons there was absolutely no difference in gear because the 70 normal and heroic dungeons had the exact same loot tables outside of the epic gems (unique-equipped at the time!) and the one epic the final boss could drop. Plus, upon launch only the final boss dropped any badges at all which made the gearing process that much slower.

Nope they didn't get easier that quick. Which is what I meant. Slow upgrading means that the dungeons NEVER have an unacceptable situation as for example VH HC in late wrath where it was either possible to tank as ret, or heal as boomkin. They didn't get outgeared so quickly, but ohh boy the feeling when you finally started running them faster. You could laugh at how hard it used to be and enjoy the upgrades your character has gone through. Slow outgearing means you never have the lack of motivation to gear up. Like in wrath I had too early the situation : "Why do I bother to gear my tank up as I already take almost 0 damage. To increase my HP number?" . Felt similar to late cata where I had to gear up my priest to have nice gear for overhealing only. Simply because there where long parts where no one took any damage.

Why do I put that much info about BC gearing model? Because in a game where you upgrade your character, I think it's important that there is no situations where you lack the motivation of continuing to do that. This is the only reason why I pointed it out. You guys seemed to understand it opposite way.

Plus, your stats as a tank are pretty false too: a tank with quested greens would still have around 11K health and after heroic blues around 13K with gems. The concept of 2-shotting a tank in heroics was common and well known and it's the reason that druid tanks were so popular -- they could literally cap out their armor threshold to 75% reduction with crafted gear and a good weapon and then just stack the utter fuck out of stamina. The Felguards that MSed for 12-15K and dropped hate every second (two at a time mind you!) in Blood Furnace, the dogs in Shattered Halls that put a 4K a tick stacking rend, the common trend of launch Shadow Labs that usually had 20+ stealthed assassins that would one shot healers before you could do anything, and the dragon at the end of Ramparts that some tacks actually used fire resistance on because his breath hit that fucking hard upon launch. These are just a *handful* of the mobs that made tanking an absolute bitch during those first two months of the expansion.

Uhm. I don't know where did you put out those numbers. My guess is that you think I had no idea what I was talking about so you could just put any tank HP numbers you might remember from BC buffed or not. You happened to be DPS or healer? I am talking about unbuffed HP in EARLY BC. Tank HP was around 8-9k ub when people started tanking harder normal modes . While gearing up for heroics your stamina went up SLOWLY because you had to sacrifice it so much to get that 490 defense rating. With my paladin I had full dungeon 3 set. 490 defense and 9,8k unbuffed HP ( with buffs it jumped to around 12,5k ). With 75% of gear being epics I finally got my HP to 12k-12,5k.
Ohh and ye I remember those, especially the fire aura in Ramparts last boss.

TBC heroics underwent five waves of nerfs for a very good reason through the first patch of that expansion. PUGing was something very, very little of the server populace did because it simply wasn't worth the headache.

For this one, I don't know what to say. Me and all of my friends were pugging all the time. It didn't cause much of headache tbh. People were used to it. I would call vanilla/BC the TIME of PUGing because there were no LFD. Due the huge amount of PUGs people knew each other in the server. And you didn't have to prove your experience with an achievement, so people get into PUGs lot easier.

It just sounds you didn't like BC and for that reason you want to prove me wrong and make it sound like it was an expansion which was quite much unplayable.

Ohh and btw. This is starting to be too much off topic so better leave it here.