Mage 90 Talents are terrible

[Firebert]

It is an option, but people really shouldn't be forced to choose the least bad option from a number of awful options. Ideally, talents should be a brainbusting choice for the average player that either expands a toolkit or caters to a playstyle.

They're not all awful. It's just that some people haven't realised that the talents are personal choices. Devs have said that they don't want the talents to be cookie-cutter any more, and they've got T6 spot on.

Invocation for those that prefer to burn and regenerate.
Rune of Power for those that want to constantly burn with no downtime, with the cost of keeping up a 60s buff.
Incanter's Ward for those that miss Mana Shield, and prefer the passive DPS over the active.

[Elegiac]

They're not all awful. It's just that some people haven't realised that the talents are personal choices. Devs have said that they don't want the talents to be cookie-cutter any more, and they've got T6 spot on.

Invocation for those that prefer to burn and regenerate.
Rune of Power for those that want to constantly burn with no downtime, with the cost of keeping up a 60s buff.
Incanter's Ward for those that miss Mana Shield, and prefer the passive DPS over the active.

You seem to be confused as to the definition of a burn cycle.

Furthermore, why does it have to be one or the other? There are plenty of talents throughout the 11 classes that provide comparable dps increases and the like while offering differences in playstyle. The level 90 tier for Mages fails in that respect.

Essentially what you are saying is "pick whichever tedious dps increase is less repulsive to you" where instead the line should be "pick what is the most fun". The mage level 90 talents are not fun, and I can safely say that is a majority opinion.

[Firebert]

Furthermore, why does it have to be one or the other? There are plenty of talents throughout the 11 classes that provide comparable dps increases and the like while offering differences in playstyle. The level 90 tier for Mages fails in that respect.

I don't think I'm quite following you here. Are you asking for more level 90 talents (so we have a choice of five where other classes have three, say)? And these talents do indeed offer comparable DPS increases. They've been balanced that way (or, they would not have been released such that one talent was superior to any other on its tier).

Essentially what you are saying is "pick whichever tedious dps increase is less repulsive to you" where instead the line should be "pick what is the most fun".

I didn't say that at all. Please don't twist my words. What I said is pick what fits your playstyle the most.

The mage level 90 talents are not fun, and I can safely say that is a majority opinion.

Prove it. Onus is on you to prove they're not fun. What I'm saying is that some people haven't realised that T6 Mage talents are exactly what Blizzard wanted: difficult choice, little to no DPS between them, and that people are dealing with that choice with "X and Y impact my playstyle too harshly and the passive Z is terrible".

[Elegiac]

I don't think I'm quite following you here. Are you asking for more level 90 talents (so we have a choice of five where other classes have three, say)? And these talents do indeed offer comparable DPS increases. They've been balanced that way (or, they would not have been released such that one talent was superior to any other on its tier).

No, as I stated in an earlier post I am asking for the Tier 6 talents to have their mana regenerating components removed, and also to be fixed to be more appealing from a quality of life standpoint.

I didn't say that at all. Please don't twist my words. What I said is pick what fits your playstyle the most.

You are dismissing valid complaints on the basis that there are alternatives to the talents people would like seeing improved, which in itself is contrary to the idea of talents being a choice in the first place.

Prove it. Onus is on you to prove they're not fun. What I'm saying is that some people haven't realised that T6 Mage talents are exactly what Blizzard wanted: difficult choice, little to no DPS between them, and that people are dealing with that choice with "X and Y impact my playstyle too harshly and the passive Z is terrible".

If they were as fun as you seem to believe, why is there such a huge outcry amongst the mage community? Fun fact, this outcry has been going on since Beta. It isn't a release night phenomenon.

Priest Tier 6, Paladin Tier 5 and Tier 6, Warlock Tier 5 are -all- tiers that accomplish what you have stated, and yet the complaints about these talents are nowhere near as vehement as Mage Tier 6. The reason being that none of the options in any of these tiers force tedium upon the player in return for the gain the talent offers.

And just because Blizzard wanted it, doesn't mean it is necessary right or desirable.

[Deleted]

I'll probably end up picking one at random. Couldn't careless about them as Frost. But frankly I have an as much an issue with the third tier. Where anyone wanting to play a element is forced into a Frost spell. They should have made some of the talents adapt to the specialization that the player chooses. To give a bit of an idea what I mean: Rune of Power would change in to Rune of Frost for Frost players, and in Rune of Fire for Fire players. Say that Frost is a AoE trap and Fire is a Burn damage increase for enemies on or within the Rune. Or something like that. (Of course that is not in line with the tiers design, but screw that!)

I don't mind the talent system per-say, but it can use some work here and there.

[Elegiac]

I'll probably end up picking one at random. Couldn't careless about them as Frost. But frankly I have an as much an issue with the third tier. Where anyone wanting to play a element is forced into a Frost spell. They should have made some of the talents adapt to the specialization that the player chooses. To give a bit of an idea what I mean: Rune of Power would change in to Rune of Frost for Frost players, and in Rune of Fire for Fire players. Say that Frost is a AoE trap and Fire is a Burn damage increase for enemies on or within the Rune. Or something like that.

I don't mind the talent system per-say, but it can use some work here and there.

To this I say one thing: Green Fire.

Blizz has rarely been forthcoming with cosmetic changes unless they deem it necessary. :|

[Deleted]

To this I say one thing: Green Fire.

Blizz has rarely been forthcoming with cosmetic changes unless they deem it necessary. :|

True, but it doesn't change the fact that they in my personal opinion should!

[Firebert]

No, as I stated in an earlier post I am asking for the Tier 6 talents to have their mana regenerating components removed, and also to be fixed to be more appealing from a quality of life standpoint.

Personal opinion that they're broken in terms of their QoL, just pick Incanter's Ward if you don't feel the other two options fit in with your playstyle. T6 is all about mana. Instead of trying to "fix" them, why not suggest an alternative spell that all mages use that that tier should focus on instead?

You are dismissing valid complaints on the basis that there are alternatives to the talents people would like seeing improved, which in itself is contrary to the idea of talents being a choice in the first place.

Improving the talents people want improving imbalances them. Imbalancing the talents is contrary to the idea of talents being a choice in the first place, as people would then just pick the best talent for DPS.

huge outcry

Small outcry on the forums by a select few out of hundreds of thousands of mages (assuming equal distribution).

The reason being that none of the options in any of these tiers force tedium upon the player in return for the gain the talent offers.

Again, none of the talents "force tedium". Most likely they're too busy focussing on the reward of the talent and complaining about the cost, hindering their playstyle, and losing their enjoyment of the talent that way.

And just because Blizzard wanted it, doesn't mean it is necessary right

Their game.

or desirable.

You're limited to three options.

I mean, I'm not against feedback. I just don't see the problem people have with the change to talents that do exactly what Blizzard said they'd do.

[Deleted]

Is anybody here who thinks placing a damn rune on the floor or maintining a 40 second buff is fun?

Mage gameplay without this mechanics is certainly more fun...

That's the point. And we have to use these things because our DPS is balanced incl. these skills

=> bad design

[Firebert]

Is anybody here who thinks placing a damn rune on the floor or maintining a 40 second buff is fun?

Fallacious argument; you have three options. Also, how long does a buff have to be maintained for before it's fun?

[Deleted]

Is anybody here who thinks placing a damn rune on the floor or maintining a 40 second buff is fun?

Mage gameplay without this mechanics is certainly more fun...

That's the point. And we have to use these things because our DPS is balanced incl. these skills

=> bad design

To some people fun is finding the challenge out of maximising DPS, regardless of what the playstyle is.

Your opinion does not equal fact.

[voltaa]

As far as the "this is a raids vs 5mans" issue, I totally agree, the only time I get mildly annoyed by having to recast invocation, is when the boss has very little health left and my choices are to cast and only get one or two more spells off or to just keep dpsing and lose my fdamage buff, this won't be as much an issue in raids since bosses aren't going to die in 1-2 invocation cycles.

That being said there will always those who don't like it purely because they have to cast something that isn't doing direct damage and just want to slobber all over their keyboards to do max dps. I am all for raising the skill cap of mages and I think this is a far better way of doing it than saying, hey we added six new abilities, find places to bind them and keep them all up

[Deleted]

As arcane, I was crazy psyched for Invocation. I can be lazy and just Spam mostly AB like I did in DS? Sign me up!

I gave it a chance, I really did, I tried different rotations, different gear, everything, but it all came down to the same premise, Invocation is absolutely terrible as Arcane. Maybe its better for fire or frost, but I highly doubt it. When it comes to any pve content, Rune of Power is 90% of the time going to be your go to talent, with IW being the other 10% on fights that you can abuse it.

As an aside, I'm very happy with how good Ice Floes is as Arcane. I was originally intending on just using scorch, but when you know the fights, Ice Floes is fantastic, don't ever have to stop casting.

Its terrible because you dont just spam AB

I'm currently playing as fire with power rune works ok and most of the times i'm first at dmg (single and multi)

[sef24]

To some people fun is finding the challenge out of maximising DPS, regardless of what the playstyle is.

Your opinion does not equal fact.

The keyword here is "to some."
Majority > minority

[Bombkirby]

I plan on getting the ward one. I always use Frost Barrier on CD if theres raid damage at all ever since my adventures in Cata raiding as Frost. It won't be that different I figured.

---------- Post added 2012-10-02 at 03:35 PM ----------

Is anybody here who thinks placing a damn rune on the floor or maintining a 40 second buff is fun?

Mage gameplay without this mechanics is certainly more fun...

That's the point. And we have to use these things because our DPS is balanced incl. these skills

=> bad design

Use the other options? Stop acting like Rune is the only choice. I'm going to avoid it like the plague cuz frost already has to place an AoE on the ground for the normal rotation.

[Deleted]

The keyword here is "to some."
Majority > minority

Re-read what I was replying to, or in future actually read the post I was replying to.

Also, forums don't represent the majority of the playerbase, so again, don't post your opinion or skewed data as fact.

[Ellsian]

Yah guys, doncha know the majority of players love channeling evocation 6x as much as they did in cata? Don't skew the data!

[Deleted]

Yah guys, doncha know the majority of players love channeling evocation 6x as much as they did in cata? Don't skew the data!

Not what I said. Until every mage posts his/her opinion on this thread (or another related thread) and those opinions are accounted for you can't simply assume that they dislike it just because you do. Therefore, as forums don't represent the majority of the playerbase, stating outright that majority > minority is wrong, as for all you know they might enjoy evocating more. I never said that they did or that they didn't, I simply said to not post stupid comments and claim them as fact.

[Ellsian]

Not what I said. Until every mage posts his/her opinion on this thread (or another related thread) and those opinions are accounted for you can't simply assume that they dislike it just because you do. Therefore, as forums don't represent the majority of the playerbase, stating outright that majority > minority is wrong, as for all you know they might enjoy evocating more. I never said that they did or that they didn't, I simply said to not post stupid comments and claim them as fact.

What a cop out. Your stance boils down to: Unless we can have every single Mage player accounted for and posting their discontent then there's no proof that these are unpopular talents, and therefore I will dismiss your opinion as a result! Derp.

[sef24]

Re-read what I was replying to, or in future actually read the post I was replying to.

Also, forums don't represent the majority of the playerbase, so again, don't post your opinion or skewed data as fact.

I reread it, all seemed fine to me. You pointed out your point was that "some people." Some people = a low amount of the population