1. #1
    Stood in the Fire tidus4eva's Avatar
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    Jun 2008
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    Ret + Holy Prism (some theorycraft of level 90 talents)

    I see a lot of guides that are disregarding Holy Prism as a plausible Retribution ability, however I have found it to be incredible for a multitude of reasons.

    First of all, the low CD. Sure it means it's another button to press more often, but for a ret DPS it is normal to have a spare GCD every now and then and that is filled nicely with this ability.

    Second, the damage of the ability is higher than Execution Sentence for single target, as long as it is used every cooldown. For me, HP deals 27-30k per hit with a 20 second CD (so approximately 81-90k per minute). ES deals 67k over time for a 1 minute CD. Lights Hammer deals 59k-63k per minute single target

    Third, the healing that it provides when cast on an enemy is quite ridiculous. I've seen it crit tanks and melee for 75k+ (with damage modifiers), and it really can save mana for the healers in times of heavy (and light) damage output. It's useful solo for a quick little 25k heal. ES can't do this, you have to choose if you want to output damage, or provide a little HoT to help the healer out, and you have to make this choice over a 1 minute CD.

    Forth, with a simple little macro:
    #showtooltip Holy Prism
    /cast [target=player] Holy Prism
    That macro provides the ret pally with the ability to AoE up to 5 targets in 15 yds for 18-20k each every 20 seconds (so if it hits 5 mobs: average 57k per minute * 5 mobs = ~250k) something that ES also can't do since it has no AoE ability.
    This macro isn't even necessary (I find it useful for my playstyle). If you want, you can click the tank and use it on them to radiate an AoE at the beginning of combat so you don't have to run in and use the ability.

    I was performing some tests on dummies and found that between Holy Prism and Execution Sentence, HP beats ES every time.
    A quick test of Lights Hammer gives me the same damage numbers (single target) as Execution Sentence. LH does heal a bit more than HP however.

    Some facts:
    - HP against 4 targets deals ~78k every 20 seconds (~234k per minute), LH against 4 targets dealt 244k -300k per minute. (Note: Crits are not being factored in and are inevitably happening during my testing, my crit rate is exactly 10% and went unmodified in combat)
    - Execution Sentence will ALWAYS do the amount listed on the tooltip (for me, that's 67,291) unless it's modified by Inq/AW. Try it yourself. The damage that is dealt is 55% small hits, 45% big hit (the big hit for me is 30k)
    - Avenging Wrath will only increase the damage done by 1 Holy Prism attack out of a possible 9 (AW CD is 3 minutes, HP can be used 9 times in that time), whereas AW will boost the full duration of 1 ES or LH out of 3 uses (once again, AW CD is 3 minutes, ES & LH can be used 3 times in that time).
    - The above point changes with 4pc T14 which makes the CD on AW 1m45s (105s), adjust the numbers accordingly

    All of this has been tested on my level 90 Paladin with no buffs, full gear and on the 4 testing dummies in the Pandaland city hub (please note, the gear is not fully optimised either (so don't bother criticising me about that, I already know) and I am hit and EXP capped.)

    The TL;DR version:
    Holy Prism is the best talent to use for single target, Lights Hammer is better for 2 or more targets. Execution Sentence is a healing ability.
    Last edited by tidus4eva; 2012-09-30 at 05:55 PM.
    "This is my story,
    It'll go the way I want,
    Or I'll end it here!" - Tidus (FFX)

  2. #2
    It's been known quite a while now that holy prism theoretically deals more damage than ES. however,

    Execution sentence is easier to line up with buffs and takes less GCD's, yes we have spare GCD's but you can't think that every time HP is off cooldown you'll be able to use it instantaneously it's dead last in our priority list. Secondly, holy avenger doesn't buff holy prism, just holy power generating attacks. Last but not least, Execution sentence stacks incredibly well with buffs and if you're an engineer you'll be able to use this with synapse springs ever CD, greatly boosting its damage, not to mention every 3rd one is affected by wings.

    Surely the heal is nice but that's not what you bring a Ret paladin for.

    When I use it properly ES will be about the same % of damage as crusader strike, around 5-6%.

    I cannot stress enough how absurd the damage of ES is when you line it up with cooldowns, just the final burst of damage crits for over 120k already without wings/guardian.
    Last edited by Faesroll; 2012-09-30 at 06:50 PM.
    People don't forgive, they forget. - Rust Cohle

  3. #3
    just wanna confirm something when i was farming i chose holy prism constantly i was doing 75-74 k ( and once 77k ) every holy prism i whispered my friend telling him that holy prism is doing this ammount of dmg on a single target after 15 min i went trying holy prism again never did more then 38 k , dunno how stealth nerf or it was bugged , i tried for 10 minutes and it was still doing this low ammount of dmg , then i went to dungeon chosing ES i wish i had a printscreen @ the End ES blow out 80 K when it hit the target with Guardians only , it gave me a big ammount of DMG 8k - 10 k - 12 k - 14 k - 15 k and then 80 k , if Holy prism was still doing 75 k i would defenitly take this Ability , but then dunno what happened , for a good AOE i chose mass exco as a glyph and light hammer for a single target i chose ES , holy prism for PVP , sorry but ur theorycraft is wrong

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire tidus4eva's Avatar
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    C'thuns Stomach
    Quote Originally Posted by Faesroll View Post
    holy avenger doesn't buff holy prism
    Sorry, I got overzealous with my post.

    Unfortunately I would love to start testing all these in raids, but they're still a few days away >_< I had 5 mans in mind writing this (oops)
    "This is my story,
    It'll go the way I want,
    Or I'll end it here!" - Tidus (FFX)

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Faesroll View Post
    It's been known quite a while now that holy prism theoretically deals more damage than holy prism.

    Wat? ... Typo? O_o

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Creatorr View Post
    Wat? ... Typo? O_o

  7. #7
    Except that in a real situation you don't have the ability to cast Holy Prism anywhere near on cd. Because it doesn't generate holy power it is lower priority than all generators, meaning you only get to cast roughly once every 30-35 seconds.

    Also, you have incredibly awful gear if LH does the same single target damage as ES for you.

  8. #8
    holy prism is shit.. proly better as a pvp talent.. LH would be nice for dungeon grinding aoe mobs but ret does decent on its own... ES is beast for bosses though..

  9. #9
    Holy prism is very strong AE damage skill and you can pretty use it 1-2 times per pack, it also benefit the group if there were a heavy AE damage burst. With green/blue gears I found I have a lot of GCD to spare, holy prism is just another good filler. At my current gear, it hits just as hard as TV so I don't see a big lose by using a GCD on it instead of HP generator. It might be weaker in terms of min/max but it's still a viable choice.

  10. #10
    Just ran some tests. 463 item level, no buffs, tested on a raid dummy. 6 minutes and 30 sec duration. The initial results are:

    Holy Prism:
    17 counts - 829182 damage
    average hit: 41k
    maximum hit: 49k
    average crit: 85k
    maximum crit: 87k
    number of crits: 3

    Overall impression: at the moment I have 5537 haste and having broken the barrier of 4 sec cd on CS the rotation feels smooth with HPR. You do not see so many dead zones as HPR fills the gaps although it's just 3 per minute. There's also the healing. Last night @ Feng HPR did over 1 mil healing for the duration of the fight.

    Execution Sentence (DoT):
    70 counts - 865093
    average hit: 9.5k
    maximum hit: 62k
    average crit: 27.4k
    maximum crit: 89.6k
    number of crits: 11

    Overall impression: As ES seems to slightly lead in damage, the rotation itself is more or less fucked once you have ES on cd. The dead zones are BIG, I mean fucking huge, sometimes like 2-3 sec if AoW doesn't proc. Also, you don't assist in healing.

    I can't right now provide any raid numbers but I remember HPR doing over 110k crits on Gara'jal kill yesterday while ES did ~150k. It looks like HPR is scaling better with raid buffs and gear but that still needs confirmation. So for now I might keep HPR on since it has greater raid viability than ES and I still need m0ar haste to make the rotation fluent without HPR filling the gaps. Finally, if HPR crits a bit more it is surpassing ES in damage. Anyway, waiting for others' feedback.
    Last edited by Arcs; 2012-10-05 at 12:24 PM.

  11. #11
    I don't know how HPR can even come close to execution really. I don't have any extensive math on it, just going by what I've seen so far in my playing. Yesterday I had my first execution sentence of the fight hit for 422k; the boss had no +damage taken buffs. Line it up with cooldowns and it is BEYOND powerful, and you can get it lined up a couple of times a fight. Regardless of what HPR does in a straight up "I cast HPR 3 times and I case ES and HPR did more damage", when you can line shit up and get that kind of a result it seems to me it HAS to pull way ahead of HPR even if you get your first HPR lined up with CDs as well. Also I often found myself not being able to get HPR off every 20 seconds, sometimes it got pushed back as much as 15 seconds, meaning I wasn't getting 3 HPR uses for 1 ES anyway. The time I will go to HPR is if my healers are being horrible for some reason or the healing on any given progression is BRUTAL, I might switch over to it because it has the heal component.

    Again, no hard math, just what I've seen playing through this.

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