Kuni's Frost Mage PVE Guide

[Akraen]

Dps from haste scales linearly on DoTs. Breakpoints don't add DPS, they add DPET.

LB is not an exception. I have no interest in debating theory with you people any longer but don't blatantly misinform someone looking for advice.

[Libretto]

Your tick frequency increases with haste, but the average number of procs / ticks per bomb does not. The amount of haste needed to get an "extra tick" by shortening the duration of the bomb to a point where you are applying a new bomb a GCD earlier, is just a loss compared to having mastery instead.

I'm sorry but the numbers I and others are getting with mastery on these particular fights versus players spam gemming / gearing haste really say it all.

[resshin]

So... with citrigue's numbers(rather impressive) should we look more into mastery a bit?

[Akraen]

Your tick frequency increases with haste, but the average number of procs / ticks per bomb does not. The amount of haste needed to get an "extra tick" by shortening the duration of the bomb to a point where you are applying a new bomb a GCD earlier, is just a loss compared to having mastery instead.

I'm sorry but the numbers I and others are getting with mastery on these particular fights versus players spam gemming / gearing haste really say it all.

Don't argue or try to defend your incorrect statement with misdirection to another argument.

Proc frequency is highest with NT, but only by 8% and you're statistically going to lose 8% of them so it's a wash. This means use whichever bomb is appropriate for the fight.

The question isn't which bomb is best, it's which bomb is best for the fight. In a mastery build the reason why LB is vastly superior to FB and NT is because of DPET not because of DPS. If LB wasn't already on a 1s GCD then it would be a different story. I'm not saying you're wrong about that, I'm saying you either misspoke or really think that. If the latter, please get your facts straight.

I love how successful you are with mastery. Not going to argue with you anymore. Doesn't mean you're right.

- - - Updated - - -

So... with citrigue's numbers(rather impressive) should we look more into mastery a bit?

Only if you like living bomb and have gear more suited to the build. Mastery is good, and lets you switch to arcane. But it's not the best due to how haste scales with itself:

[Xerxese]

I'm at a lower gear level than the guys advocating for the "stack haste" and the "mastery after 9522 haste" crowd

I don't have T16 2-pc, but with my 541 ilvl, I find myself able to put up better numbers with Mastery stacking

Critique and CitizenPete, have either of you put together a BiS lists for this theory? Are you thinking 2pc and then Warforged?

Kuni, where do you sit on this subject? you have the 48% haste then mastery on the guide, do you still find you achieve better numbers this way?

[Akraen]

4pc scales with haste, not at all with mastery. Therefore 2pc + WF is best for mastery setup.

In the profiles I linked above, it's from gear sets on Wowhead. The M/H mix is still over 10k haste because in the BiS set optimizing for 9522 you still end up with like 10550 or something.

Anyway my chart isn't proving anything other than the more haste you have, the more haste you gain. So it's a progressive gain which discourages going for a cap.

If you want more info analysis, take a gander over to my forums:
http://www.naturalorderguild.com/for...al-data-for-54

More to come when I get to it.

PS: You might just be finding mastery doing better for your playstyle or skill level. It doesn't mean it's better. Mastery playstyle is easier and less twitch, that's all.

[Deleted]

Found something pretty interesting today: I`m still @ ilvl 561 (since 2 weeks : /) and now I have 1 token, 1 heroic offset (head) and heroic warforged shoulders. I simmed myself with following results:

With my current gear: Arcane 337k Frost 314k
With 2p (hands, chest), heroic head, heroic wf shoulders: Arcane 340k Frost 341k !!!!!!

I have to say, that the mastery build is single target 2k lower. So optimal reforge according to simc was: 50% Haste > Crit ~26% > Mastery

Then I added more gear (approx 4 ilvl) and Arcane went 6k ahead Frost. Mastery took over haste for frost.

Scale factors Arcane: Int 8.68 Crit 4.65 Haste 5.77 Mastery 6.07
Scale factors Frost: Int 8.77 Crit 4.15 Haste 3.95 Mastery 4.56

I reforged Frost and Arcane BiS after that and got the following scale factors:

Arcane BiS: Int 9.95 Crit 6.29 Haste 7.14 Mastery 7.39
Frost BiS: Int 9.55 Crit 4.27 Haste 4.09 Mastery 5.43

The moment a player switch T15 with T16, Arcane loses and frost gain a lot, because of the bonuses. But Arcane quickly widens the gap again with more gear because of its ridiculous scaling. This is why some people experience the "wow frost is so strong" moment.

For me it´s pretty nice, because I planned to progress blackfuse with frost anyway.

[Xerxese]

I am not going to argue your theories or results. I don't have any valid charts/graphs/logs theories to argue. All I can comment on is my personal experiences. I had everything geared toward haste, I tried 48% haste, I tried 9522 and then mastery and found the results to be very favorable for my play style in this direction.

I'm not going to sit here and measure the size our epeens either. I used to raid "hardcore", used to rank consistently. Now I raid maybe 5-6 hrs a week is what I would label as a "casual" raid.

None of this means, I am not going to continue to max my DPS to the last percent. I test every setup I can think of until I have a feel for it and can effectively make that decision.

I'm not commenting to try and have other mages play either style. It makes no difference to me, just I don't care if you are frost/arcane/fire.

I like to see guys maximize the spec they are, most of the comments on ehre are by people with a lot more gear than me or the average player looking for insights.

What you are able to achieve at your level can and is drastically different than mine.

Hell, I don't really even want to be frost, I love fire and everything that it is, I just can't amass the crit to play it effectively or as consistent as I like.

I have found with dummy testing, LFR testing, Flex testing that at my gear lvl (can't post link) Mojakubwa (Arthas)

Haste (9522) >>> Mastery being the best results

[Sharkeey]

Hey Citrique if you go with the 9522 haste then mastery build, would you keep the icy veins glyph? Also I think both you and Akraen are awesome for both of your hard work. Keep it up! I'd be screwed without you guys, probably stack crit or something dumb.

[Libretto]

I glyphed IV. There's no concrete reason to unglyph IV if not playing with NT. Most of the reasoning to stack haste / unglyph IV etc is to boost NT for more FFB procs and higher multitarget cleave from ticks. Playing with LB, this is much less of a concern.

ed: That said, on fights where you want double utility glyphs like rapid displacement + cone of cold (sha of pride hc) it's not a bad glyph to replace as the DPS increase from it isn't all that high, assuming you want to keep water elemental glyph so you don't have to micromanage it throughout the fight.

[Mastamage]

Your tick frequency increases with haste, but the average number of procs / ticks per bomb does not. The amount of haste needed to get an "extra tick" by shortening the duration of the bomb to a point where you are applying a new bomb a GCD earlier, is just a loss compared to having mastery instead.

I'm sorry but the numbers I and others are getting with mastery on these particular fights versus players spam gemming / gearing haste really say it all.

it's nice and all that you want to use your arcane stats for frost but using such a small sample size doesn't do much. Take more data and then get back to us.

[Libretto]

Malkorok 25 hc - 342863 DPS. 12M done to adds. #1 frost, #2 mage. Add damage is about the same with frost as arcane parses.

Might do spoils as frost after all as we're using some goofy "bring all the kunchongs and bombardiers" strat which results in endless pools of AIDS everywhere that require moving every 3 seconds. Dunno.

[Malfecto]

Ok, you guys have convinced me.

I'm going fire.

See you in 6.0.

><

[arizonapriest93]

This is a tiny bit off topic but still relevant. Guys can we kinda clean it up a bit? It's like a soap in here with Julio the pissed off pretty boy going after Justin the hard working gritty guy who is always the underdog but is an ass anyhow. (Not relating to anyone just two funny examples). The main point I want to make is that the discussion seems to have been more of a pissing match between two viable variations of frost. Perhaps we should look at it as is, Kuni's and the other's Haste until certain percentage then mastery is viable and has a easier skill cap (if you fuck up multidotting its okay damage isn't focused on pure maximizing Bomb damage) and the Stormrage boys Haste will save the world, (haste >>>>>> everything else) to maximize dots for multidotting effects. Both seem viable, one has a higher skill cap, I know neither of you are saying "YOU MUST PLAY THIS OR YOU ARE WRONG" but it honestly just feels most posts, even constructive ones are turning into some way of proving which is better. If they're both viable I don't think its worth it for either side. Akrean and Masta are the haste kings, I got it and you guys play it right that's what matters. Pete Critque, Kuni although a bit differently, see the haste to a cap then mastery. Both viable one may produce higher numbers in a given situation. Fine by me. Just really was hoping for this thread to get back to the amazing frost discussions in the past with a little less hostility.

Just my 2cents from a guy who posts rarely but reads often, got a lot of respect for just about every contribute in this thread, hate to see hate, we don't need no Sha of Hatred bouncing around in here, ain't got time for that shit.

[Akraen]

I blame Pete for snogging Lady Mastery under the apple tree yesterday while Masta requested a DNA test to prove Critique isn't the father of his son the Mastery/Haste mix build.

Meanwhile Kuni and I are flirting and courting Lady Frost bomb but she has high standards for trinkets and only wants to hang out with her girlfriends icy Boulder and haste.

Imnick and zomgdps ran off into the sunset together months ago but left their boy Pewpewpolarthief an orphan.

[Salystra]

I blame Pete for snogging Lady Mastery under the apple tree yesterday while Masta requested a DNA test to prove Critique isn't the father of his son the Mastery/Haste mix build.

Meanwhile Kuni and I are flirting and courting Lady Frost bomb but she has high standards for trinkets and only wants to hang out with her girlfriends icy Boulder and haste.

Imnick and zomgdps ran off into the sunset together months ago but left their boy Pewpewpolarthief an orphan.

Still a better love story than twilight

[Deleted]

Okay did a few more steps with Frost. Heroic Malkorok was pretty nice to be honest (sadly I died, but I died for the team :P). I think I have to get more used to the T16 2p (practice needed)
Spoils made me pretty sad, because Nether Tempest damage is pretty low, but Ice Lance crits are huge during burst with glyphed IV and Frozen Thoughts.


Played with 50% haste and 72% mastery, was a good flow. I will enjoy my time with frost

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...55&e=4505#Pete (died)

[Akraen]

Frost bomb works surprisingly well on spoils. Like really give it a shot

[Deleted]

I will try Frost Bomb next time, I wasted gazillion damage (dps) by dotting adds. We had brewmasters in both rooms with 2 tanks. If the statues die this fast, NT/LB is completely for the trash.

[Akraen]

I go with a bm, he keeps stuff clumped up and I go for an anchor. Works great.