Future of Europe Group - European Army

[Deleted]

Why should they even be in the EU? I think it's insulting. The UK is too great to lose its sovereignty and rich history to some bureaucratic nightmare. They can still trade and fuel their economy without it. Not everyone likes centralized power. If a Euro-army was made they would have to carry most of the weight anyways. It's not like most European nations have that much to contribute.

I can see it now! France, Germany, and Britain....and Friends! Perhaps the reason they prefer us over the EU is be ause we actually like them and respect their sovereignty, even if they still have that decrepit old lady on the throne.

Need I mention recent US leaders?

[kleinlax21]

American? Different? What do you speak off, everyone knows there's only kind of American and it's this:

YEEHAW BROTHER!

OT: not sure why some of y'all in Europe want to move to a loose confederation of member states. We tried that here in the 'ole US and it didn't work out so well. After we ditched the Articles of Confederation (our first governing document that called for the 13 colonies to hold most of the powers of government that was tied together by a federal government that couldnt tax or wage war)that called for a loose membership with a decentralized power distribution, we moved to the more federally-concentrated government we employ under our current constitution, after riots broke out that the first government wasn't equipped to deal with.

The only way a "United States of Europe" can work is if y'all actually become united culturally and politically, not just economically IMO. It won't work if every member state isn't all in. Learn from our mistakes guys

[GreatOak]

Need I mention recent US leaders?

Have at it. I didn't vote for any of them.

[kleinlax21]

No thanks, keep your EU Army. I for one want to see a union of the Anglo countries, Thats the UK, USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia. It would be a force to be reckoned with, as well as one heck of a party.

Not to mention that the US and the UK are more closely culturally, politically, and economically "on the same page" than the UK is with many member states of the EU. This is just an example of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, IMO.

[Deleted]

With an attitude like yours can you blame us?

If the UK would make up it's mind about the EU and have a referendum then this kind of attitudes would not exist. Your prime minister insists on staying in and then vetoes our deals.

[Deleted]

If the UK would make up it's mind about the EU and have a referendum then this kind of attitudes would not exist. Your prime minister insists on staying in and then vetoes our deals.

Your deals screw us over even more thats why.

[Deleted]

The UK is too great to lose its sovereignty and rich history to some bureaucratic nightmare. They can still trade and fuel their economy without it. Not everyone likes centralized power.

So great that it's close to breaking up. Not everyone likes centralized power, especially Scotland. The UK itself is very centralized in England.

[Jackmoves]

Not to mention that the US and the UK are more closely culturally, politically, and economically "on the same page" than the UK is with many member states of the EU. This is just an example of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, IMO.

Most brits I've met have been very "european"(if there is such a thing) tbh, the differences are there, but thats the case with every nation in Europe, hence why a Fed European state will never work out to a satisfying level. So I totally agree with you about the square peg saying. Germany and France are so deep into it now so there is no going back for them though, it would cost Germany 7% of their GDP to back away from the Euro for example, thats an insane amount of money.

The UK is wise imo, my country got much the same sentiment, but not to the same degree, EU is not fundamentally bad, it's actually a gold mine but it's been missmanaged to a redicules degree.

There is good reasons for why nations joined, but there is also good reasons for why nations do not want to make it more centralized.

[GreatOak]

Most brits I've met have been very "european"(if there is such a thing) tbh, the differences are there, but thats the case with every nation in Europe, hence why a Fed European state will never work out to a satisfying level. So I totally agree with you about the square peg saying. Germany and France are so deep into it now so there is no going back for them though, it would cost Germany 7% of their GDP to back away from the Euro for example, thats an insane amount of money.

The UK is wise imo, my country got much the same sentiment, but not to the same degree, EU is not fundamentally bad, it's actually a gold mine but it's been missmanaged to a redicules degree.

There is good reasons for why nations joined, but there is also good reasons for why nations do not want to make it more centralized.

About a third of my family is British and they'll tell you in a second how much they aren't like Europe. They're far more similar to their former colonies. My uncle used to make a joke about how British kids failed geography tests because they always placed The UK in the middle of the atlantic between Europe and North America

[Jackmoves]

About a third of my family is British and they'll tell you in a second how much they aren't like Europe. They're far more similar to their former colonies. My uncle used to make a joke about how British kids failed geography tests because they always placed The UK in the middle of the atlantic between Europe and North America

No one is like europeans, thats my point. Who sets the standard for what a European is like? The brits are just as much Europeans as anyone els. A french guy is not like a german guy, a dane is not like a spanish guy, are they "europeans"?

There are cultural differences between all the countries. So what is a European? I don't know, someone who agree to the European convention? Someone who was born in a European country? Or what?

"I'm going to Europe this summer"
^Heard that said more times then I could count by Swedes going to.... Europe. :P
We are still part of Europe though.

[Fahrenheit]

If this comes to pass we can only hope they have big ass war games between the US and Euro armies. We can get Canada to referee them!

[GreatOak]

No one is like europeans, thats my point. Who sets the standard for what a European is like? The brits are just as much Europeans as anyone els. A french guy is not like a german guy, a dane is not like a spanish guy, are they "europeans"?

There are cultural differences between all the countries. So what is a European? I don't know, someone who agree to the European convention? Someone who was born in a European country? Or what?

"I'm going to Europe this summer"
^Heard that said more times then I could count by Swedes going to.... Europe. :P
We are still part of Europe though.

You're misinterpreting my point though. We're claiming that they are more like us than any European nation. I mean, we could be considered European from a larger perspective (or western rather).

---------- Post added 2012-10-02 at 04:28 PM ----------

If this comes to pass we can only hope they have big ass war games between the US and Euro armies. We can get Canada to referee them!

It would only be fair for Canada to be on our team.

[Fahrenheit]

It would only be fair for Canada to be on our team.

Hmmm... Now are you saying that based on location or cultural allignment? Cause if that that case we get the UK and Australia too.

[Jackmoves]

You're misinterpreting my point though. We're claiming that they are more like us than any European nation. I mean, we could be considered European from a larger perspective (or western rather)

ah sorry, yeah thats very possible, you identify with certain countries more then others, Scandinavians, anglo countries etc.
I think it highlights the problem of a Federal Europe. What we share I think is simple values, much of that can be found in the European Convention, but apart from that, a lot of small.... and sometimes big differences.

There are elements with the EU that is fantastic though, I don't think people realize how beneficial our free trade agreements etc are. I seriously want to /facepalm when I talk to Swedes that wan't to leave the EU, the economic advantages is far too big... and that goes for the UK to. Without knowing exact numbers I am willing to bet my left arm on the fact that some/most of their biggest trading partners is European countries.

[GreatOak]

Hmmm... Now are you saying that based on location of cultural allignment? Cause if that that case we get the UK and Australia too.

Location, otherwise UK would have to be on our team. Europe couldn't assemble a team comparable to ours if they divided into subcultures.

[Deleted]

Hmmm... Now are you saying that based on location or cultural allignment? Cause if that that case we get the UK and Australia too.

As I said before, we need to Anglosphere to team up, The UK, USA, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. That would be a kickass alliance.

[Fahrenheit]

Location, otherwise UK would have to be on our team. Europe couldn't assemble a team comparable to ours if they divided into subcultures.

Good point. Otherwise no one would want to be on France's team.

[GreatOak]

Good point. Otherwise no one would want to be on France's team.

France is like our uncle man

[Jackmoves]

We would sell ball bearings to both sides, make good bank and add another 100 years to our conflictless history. :P

[Deleted]

Anyone els think the whole report is BS?

For those who don't know the final report is backed by the foreign ministers of 11 EU member states (Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Italy, Germany, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal and Spain), and is basically a "plan" for a federal European "country", including a future establishment of a European Army.

How the heck would they ever get that to work, there is so many conflicting areas here, member states need to keep their sovereignty when it comes to the military. Imagine the discussion in a future European parliament in case something would come up, on one hand you would have Germany which always tries to avoid conflicts on the other hand you would have the likes of France or the UK which are much more expeditionary, at least if one goes by modern times. For example look at the EU mandate for EU NAVFOR, France, UK and a few others wants a more aggressive mandate but Germany and a couple of others wants to go easy, so as always when it comes to the EU we end up with something inbetween, which isn't always bad, but it isn't always the best either, I simply can't see how it would ever work out when you got countries with conflicting opinions, we always end up with some kind of compromise that rarely is the optimal solution.

Sure there could be some advantages, better interoperability and more streamlined forces, more capital for R&D, maybe more efficient and cost effective procurement of equipment etc... but nothing stops countries from working together on big projects as it is, Eurofighter for example.

For those who want to be part of a military alliance there is already NATO.

I guess the combined forces would be able of more power projection as well, but again, NATO is there for those who want part of it.

If one plays with the idea of hypothetically combined EU military this is what it would look like currently.

European military budget: €194 billion, 1.6% of European Unions GDP
European military personnel: 1,695,122(active), 2,614,491(reserve), 755,034(paramilitary), 5,064,647(total), around 70,000 currently deployed
European Air Forces: 2012 estimated, 2,115 serviceable combat aircrafts(fighter aircraft and ground-attack aircraft) 268 Eurofighter, 364 Tornado, 92 Rafale, 211 Mirage 2000, 39 Mirage F1, 162 JAS Gripen, 415 F-16, 148 F/A-18, 425 others. + 569 transport, tanker and air-lift aircraft.
European Naval Forces: 600 warships, that number does not include support ships of any kind. 6 aircraft carriers, (the largest is the Charles de Gaulle), 58 submarines, 111 major surface warships(destroyers/frigates), 58 corvettes, 18 amphibious assault ship, etc.
European Land Forces: No idea.

They want a united front against the rising power of China.