Future of Europe Group - European Army

[Deleted]

No one is like europeans, thats my point. Who sets the standard for what a European is like? The brits are just as much Europeans as anyone els. A french guy is not like a german guy, a dane is not like a spanish guy, are they "europeans"?

You can't argue with British people over this, I've seen this argument a million times before.
They see all the European countries as the same, yet they are somehow completely different from any 'European'.

The rest of Europe will say that all countries are different and that the UK is no exception.
But hey, apparently the British want to feel special. It's probably some form of arrogance. They think they're better than us.

[Puremallace]

Great idea here. Clearly placing a unified army on the door step of Russias border will not prompt a new cold war nooooo wayyyyy rightttttt

[Deleted]

This is very true. However it is also kind of insulting to the rest of Europe.

First we're pretty much forced to work together and form the EU just so we're less likely to go to war with eachother. Heavily connecting ourselves to the rest of Europe means we won't see one country trying to dominate all of it again.

And then there is the UK, who just likes to revive the British Empire. It's quite the slap in the face if you ask me.

Was it not insulting to Canada, Australia and New Zealand when we terminated alot of trade with them because a condition of us joining Europe was that (New Zealand suffered hugely as a result of it)?

So the UK is too great to lose their sovereignty and history, but the rest of Europe is hardly worth anything? Who is insulting who now?

But it is not the UK making other European countries lose their sovereignty and history. They are deciding that they want to do this, the UK are merely saying that our sovereignty and history is important to us and worth us trying to maintain as much control of it as we can. So its their government insulting their country if they are will to reduce the control that its people have on their lives.

[Wikiy]

Such hatred tends to occur when you put different peoples or ethnic groups under the same artificial nation. One group starts to get more power over the others, who feel threatened and try to secede, which the central government then tries to stop through the use of force.

What you're describing, though, is communism. Why do people forget we'd still have democracy in a federal Europe? Or the fact that no one is proposing such a federal Europe is achieved through means that aren't based on democracy?

You don't see this in the EU because member states retain their sovereignty. I guarantee you'd see a lot of nationalism in various groups if EU were to procede with federalism. If it was perceived by the French, for example, that the Germans were getting disproportionate amount of power and were using that power to their advantage over other groups, there would be trouble.

There would be political and economic unrest plus whining. Besides, Germany wouldn't do that. The world, particularly Europe, is past the things that have been happening up until 1940s. I am baffled by how people have issues accepting the fact a new era has begun, literally, in so many areas of life. People that tend to take history as an example to say that if a country does something that is similar to something done before the second world war, the reactions to both the actions will be the same.

No there isn't. EU does not have a common language policy, nor does it have any authority over the education systems in the member nations. Even among young people in various parts of Europe you won't survive on English, and won't in any foreseeable future unless an official EU-wide policy is set (although EU technically doesn't currently have the authority to set such a policy).

I was merely trying to say that fairly soon, all of the people will be fluent in English. You don't need common policy for that, only common sense (from all of the countries).

---------- Post added 2012-10-02 at 06:49 PM ----------

The USA is a region, with 50 states that were each an independent country at some point prior to joining, and each state has very different customs, cultures, economies and dialects. While english is the lingua franca of the US, nearly every language on earth is spoken here in ethnic communities. Are you really suggesting that Vermont, Texas, and Hawaii are all homogenous? Hell, I know people South Carolina that would be ready to fight for being mistaken as North Carolinians. The States really are pretty unique and varied, outsiders just assume they are all the same.

I think no one is trying to argue people in the American states are no different from each other, just that the differences are miniscule compared to the differences between European countries. And honestly, i don't understand why this is so insulting to Americans.

[Deleted]

What you're describing, though, is communism. Why do people forget we'd still have democracy in a federal Europe? Or the fact that no one is proposing such a federal Europe is achieved through means that aren't based on democracy?

That's not communism, it doesn't matter through which ways such power is achieved. Even in democracy smaller nations can easily feel like they've lost their ability to govern themselves and are slaves to some distant central government. And what would such federal Europe achieve that'd be worth it?

There would be political and economic unrest plus whining. Besides, Germany wouldn't do that. The world, particularly Europe, is past the things that have been happening up until 1940s. I am baffled by how people have issues accepting the fact a new era has begun, literally, in so many areas of life. People that tend to take history as an example to say that if a country does something that is similar to something done before the second world war, the reactions to both the actions will be the same.

1940's were not that long ago. Humans are still humans, and while we might've advanced a lot in many areas, there are fundamental forces like nationalism and religions that still wield enormous power.

I was merely trying to say that fairly soon, all of the people will be fluent in English. You don't need common policy for that, only common sense (from all of the countries).

And I'm saying that's not true. For example where I live you get to choose which languages you learn in school and nobody has to learn English if they don't want to. I would hazard a guess that this is true for the majority of EU member states. I'd be willing to put money on you not being able to comfortably manage with English alone in Portugal, France and Italy, for example, in our lifetimes.

[Deleted]

Sounds awesome, make a battlegroup mixed with people from all over the European Union. The communication in that group would be the best, trying to communicate with 23 languages is just an awesome idea!

[Frizzlewits]

ye sure, if the greeks will pay for it. they have gotten lots of money from the EU lately.

nah just pestering.

OT: I HOPE NOT
no use whatssoever

[Deleted]

Sovereignty matters to me. The idea of getting seperated into power blocs...well World War One comes to mind. No-one would ever go to war because it would be mad, right? Except they did. And I think there were some pretty close calls during the Cold War in terms of nuclear tensions as well. Obviously the EU is in the dock a lot at the moment, but I don't necessarily mind the trading aspects - but sacrificing sovereignty to federal or centralized financial power seems a pretty disagreeable prospect to me.

[Wikiy]

Sovereignty matters to me. The idea of getting seperated into power blocs...well World War One comes to mind. No-one would ever go to war because it would be mad, right? Except they did. And I think there were some pretty close calls during the Cold War in terms of nuclear tensions as well. Obviously the EU is in the dock a lot at the moment, but I don't necessarily mind the trading aspects - but sacrificing sovereignty to federal or centralized financial power seems a pretty disagreeable prospect to me.

Historically, though, at no point were all-out wars as improbable or unthinkable as they are now. Nor anywhere near it. In fact, you yourself gave the example of the first world war. Absolutely no one was surprised it happened. In fact, it happened because all of the European powers WANTED to resolve the nationalistic tensions and WANTED to fight wars. It isn't for no reason that Austria gave Serbia an ultimatum which no nation would ever accept for something they did not even do, all the while doing it in agreement with Germany. Serbia even accepted the ultimatum, hindering its international reputation, knowing it can't risk Germany and Austria destroying it, and guess what, it did not help them at all. And that's because Germany and Austria wanted war. Their ultimatum, obviously, wasn't preposterous enough as they'd been hoping.

[Zoranon]

Historically, though, at no point were all-out wars as improbable or unthinkable as they are now. Nor anywhere near it. In fact, you yourself gave the example of the first world war. Absolutely no one was surprised it happened. In fact, it happened because all of the European powers WANTED to resolve the nationalistic tensions and WANTED to fight wars. It isn't for no reason that Austria gave Serbia an ultimatum which no nation would ever accept for something they did not even do, all the while doing it in agreement with Germany. Serbia even accepted the ultimatum, hindering its international reputation, knowing it can't risk Germany and Austria destroying it, and guess what, it did not help them at all. And that's because Germany and Austria wanted war. Their ultimatum, obviously, wasn't preposterous enough as they'd been hoping.

That is just not true, this is an antiquated view of pre WW1 relation, better research proved this to be false. Look at the stock exchange levels for example, business circles were persuaded there will be no war, ironically, the war as a solution had the greatest support by normal citizens - look at the mobilisation videos from Germany or France, the people there were rejoicing about going to war.

The leaders on the other hand did not want war and in same cases even started to panic - look for example at the Kaiser-Tsar correspondence (better know as Willy-Nicky telegrams).

[Deleted]

You can't argue with British people over this, I've seen this argument a million times before.
They see all the European countries as the same, yet they are somehow completely different from any 'European'.

The rest of Europe will say that all countries are different and that the UK is no exception.
But hey, apparently the British want to feel special. It's probably some form of arrogance. They think they're better than us.

One major reason for some brits not wanting to be part of the EU is I think, that we get less control over what laws are put into place in our own country.

[Jackmoves]

One major reason for some brits not wanting to be part of the EU is I think, that we get less control over what laws are put into place in our own country.

I think that goes for many countries, I certainly don't want a federal European state/government. We wouldn't have much pull in such a situation with our small population. But the EU as it used to be still have a lot of advantages. It should not go the way of a federal state though, one needs to draw the line somewhere.

[Deleted]

I simply can't see how it would ever work out when you got countries[edit]/political parties[/edit] with conflicting opinions, we always end up with some kind of compromise that rarely is the optimal solution.

How is that different from the way any democracy functions?

It's not.

Sure there could be some advantages, better interoperability and more streamlined forces, more capital for R&D, maybe more efficient and cost effective procurement of equipment etc... but nothing stops countries from working together on big projects as it is, Eurofighter for example.

Which competes with both Rafale and Gripen, and the JSF.

Efficiency would improve tremendously if 27 EU-countries did not use 5-10 different types of weapons for the same role. By how much? Well, the EU countries combined spend about half as much as the US on defence. So it should have about half its capabilities as well - including six carrier battle groups, etc. (100.000 ton-sized carriers, not the midgets currently in use.)

For those who want to be part of a military alliance there is already NATO.

Which stopped serving European countries' interests when the Cold War ended. Now it's merely a tool for US foreign policy - which is one reason why European defence spending has declined so much: Why waste money on another country's foreign interests?

[Grizzly Willy]

How is that different from the way any democracy functions?

It's not.

Except the compromise is still among those within your country as opposed to being with those from other countries. A compromise between two British political parties is going to be more palatable than a compromise between British and everybody else.

[Deleted]

Sovereignty matters to me.

How much sovereignty does a small country have?

Switzerland is a good example. Under pressure from the US, it recently rewrote its banking laws - which used to be considered sacred.

As a small European country you can choose to either be integrated in the EU, or be intimidated by bigger countries. Much of the sovereignty so many people prize is merely an illusion.

---------- Post added 2012-10-03 at 06:30 PM ----------

Except the compromise is still among those within your country as opposed to being with those from other countries. A compromise between two British political parties is going to be more palatable than a compromise between British and everybody else.

Why?

We're talking about military matters: The main issues are which type and how many of each weapon to buy, and which military interventions should be undertaken.

They're politically simple questions: Yes or no, and how many/much. Little opportunity for unpalatability.

On the contrary, the British are probably a little too trigger-happy, and the Germans a bit too reticient. A compromise between the two is likely to be an improvement for both.

---------- Post added 2012-10-03 at 06:34 PM ----------

Great idea here. Clearly placing a unified army on the door step of Russias border will not prompt a new cold war nooooo wayyyyy rightttttt

Disband NATO in the process, and remove American forces from Europe. Problem solved.

[Deleted]

One major reason for some brits not wanting to be part of the EU is I think, that we get less control over what laws are put into place in our own country.

This. Any remaining good will I had towards the EU was lost when they decided we had to give the vote to prisoners. I'm sorry, but that isn't something for somebdoy in Lithuania to decide.


I've been advocating a more powerful commonwealth for a while now. But not just the Anglo countries, I'd love to see us work more closely with India. They could have the power to rival that of China.

[Deleted]

I dont like it. Finns werent even "european" to begin with and I dont even consider us to be european like indo europeans are.

[Deleted]

And I'm saying that's not true. For example where I live you get to choose which languages you learn in school and nobody has to learn English if they don't want to. I would hazard a guess that this is true for the majority of EU member states. I'd be willing to put money on you not being able to comfortably manage with English alone in Portugal, France and Italy, for example, in our lifetimes.

And where is that ? Must be eastern europe because every country in the west / north and south has English as a mendatory. So no, it's not true for the majority of EU member states.... everyone i know in my life speaks English fluently, this includes those over 70 years old. How the hell can you not know English when 90% + on tv and the Internet is written and spoken in English ?

I've been to Italy and France over a dozen times and never met anyone that didn't speak English.

I dont like it. Finns werent even "european" to begin with and I dont even consider us to be european like indo europeans are.

Oh that's right, you where Russian, becuase Finland and Russia have so much in common. Don't they go to bars and have drinks on a daily basis ? Oh wait... what rock have you been living under ?

[GennGreymane]

English is very wide spoken. I went to Taiwan this summer.... everyone knew English. made it hard to practice my chinese.... so damned impatient they were!

[TheGravemind]

The Brits and the Germans teamed up would be a bit of a force if history is anything to by. That's all I have to add here..

Nothing compared to the United States.