We feel dungeons are rewarding enough

[beanman12345]

Theres got to be a happy medium somewhere.
-Cata was faceroll easy. I could get a toon to 85 and with a little luck be able to get into LFR within a day or so, and be ready for reg DS almost right away. Good for alts, bad to have anything to do afterwards, unless i wanted to run regular 9 times a week.
-MoP feels like its going to be an INSANE grindfest. not that I mind grinding itself, I used to enjoy a bit of rep grinding, and the dailies back in BC; but this seems insane. BRB tons of factions to do tons of dailies for, unless Im missing something, VP seems like it will be a b!tch to cap, at 30 per random and 5 for dailies.

it's not actually as bad as it sounds. Pre-MoP you had 25 daily cap. about 25 dailies every for 7 days almost caps you out. throw in 3 or 4 dungeon runs that week, and your cap.

[Glorious Leader]

it's not actually as bad as it sounds. Pre-MoP you had 25 daily cap. about 25 dailies every for 7 days almost caps you out. throw in 3 or 4 dungeon runs that week, and your cap.

It's bad dude. It's not even just the total amount which is kinda painful but I could deal with it's just the fact that to spend any of those points I only have one way to get to it. A thing I don't particularly want to do anymore because I spent a shit load of time doing all the way up till 90. I mean it's all the shit combined that just makes it's stupid. It's all these gating methods tossed together to make it a massive headache, wholly regressive and far to grindy with little actual options.

Look if they were really concerned about gating content and limiting it's consumption the answer is to lower the weekly vp cap. That's still total week sauce IMHO but it's alot better than what they've done. Theirs so many ways they can improve it but the fact that they think it's rewarding enough is the part that upsets me.

[Rizendragon]

It's piss easy.

I think this answers the question well enough. The trade off here is that the dungeons are easy enough that you can get a full set of gear within a week of dungeon grinding while rewarding justice and valor points. The trade being you aren't getting rep.

You need to remember the context of this statement. They want people out in the world. Not sitting in the cities. If they were to add the reps back onto tabards you'd have city queuing again, and I for one think that's a terrible design. I'm having a ton of fun doing dailies this time around, and I've never been a rep grinder before now (played since 12/07).

[beanman12345]

It's bad dude. It's not even just the total amount which is kinda painful but I could deal with it's just the fact that to spend any of those points I only have one way to get to it. A thing I don't particularly want to do anymore because I spent a shit load of time doing all the way up till 90. I mean it's all the shit combined that just makes it's stupid. It's all these gating methods tossed together to make it a massive headache, wholly regressive and far to grindy with little actual options.

You not liking it, does not make it bad, nor does it make it stupid. Sorry.

[Glorious Leader]

I think this answers the question well enough. The trade off here is that the dungeons are easy enough that you can get a full set of gear within a week of dungeon grinding while rewarding justice and valor points. The trade being you aren't getting rep.

You need to remember the context of this statement. They want people out in the world. Not sitting in the cities. If they were to add the reps back onto tabards you'd have city queuing again, and I for one think that's a terrible design. I'm having a ton of fun doing dailies this time around, and I've never been a rep grinder before now (played since 12/07).

No you can't get a full set of gear. I'm stuck waiting on two pieces from two specific bosses that never drop or get ninjad by assholes. In fact once those bosses are done I leave the dungeon. I don't care if their easy, please don't reduce my argument to that. They can be easy as shit and still be rewarding if the actual rewards are good and not paltry. The grinding for justice and valor is paltry you get so little. I would be okay with that if justice gear wasn't weaksauce and valor didn't mean that i was pigeonhold into farming rep with a faction.

I got the context, that's why I posted the whole thing and not just the snippet. I think it's fair that we remember the context of the whole expansion. It was supposed to be about giving up options and diversity. They claim it does exactly that but from my perspective and the perspective of many people if you bother to read the forums it doesn't do that. For no good reason. Look if your concern is that people won't do dailies then limit the amount they get from dungeons. I still think that's more unnecessary gating but they don't even think that's needed. Their position is what bugs me more than anything. NOTHING will change.

---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 09:18 AM ----------

You not liking it, does not make it bad, nor does it make it stupid. Sorry.

Perspective. It does for people who don't like those things. In a very real sense it's bad for them. On the other hand you liking it doesn't make it good either nor does it make it particularly smart. Sorry. It's just criticism man. I think it's fair but whatever.

[araine]

Well it's interesting that WotLK probably had the least amount of grind among the warcraft expansions, and that was the most successful period of the games life so far as well.

TBC was a total rep grind, worse than MoP by a long shot.

Everyday for 10 months folks have been making threads about how great TBC was and how Cata was a failure bring back TBC, Blizzard listens and what do we get massive complaints about how it takes forever and is a grind for everything.

[Glorious Leader]

Everyday for 10 months folks have been making threads about how great TBC was and how Cata was a failure bring back TBC, Blizzard listens and what do we get massive complaints about how it takes forever and is a grind for everything.

That is and was the same defense used at the start of cataclysm when people thought dungeons were to hard. Look how well that turned out. cata is also the last time they made a change that was also regressive much like this.

[Daverid]

I think this is simply a case of Blizzard realising that they systems in Cataclysm were HORRIBLE, they were a even more retarded version of WOTLK. So instead of reverting back to the WOTLK system and trying a couple of changes, they just went balls to the wall and made a completely new system.

Kudos to them for trying, and whilst it's definitely better then Cataclysm, they haven't really hit that sweet spot yet. I did however look at that statement and just go, "Hmmmmm". Frankly I don't mind just spamming Heroics and waiting for RNG to dish me out my loot, especially when it's an alt I enjoy just taking a breather from my main and just getting to play another class that I find fun. But I can understand people's frustration with the current system.

I think the amount of VP awarded from Heroics definitely needs to be buffed, as well as raids. Blizzard have done ALOT right with MOP, but something they've definitely failed at is trying to spread the VP too thin to get people out doing more, but they forget that some people simply hate doing certain aspects of the game :S

[Rizendragon]

No you can't get a full set of gear. I'm stuck waiting on two pieces from two specific bosses that never drop or get ninjad by assholes. In fact once those bosses are done I leave the dungeon. I don't care if their easy, please don't reduce my argument to that. They can be easy as shit and still be rewarding if the actual rewards are good and not paltry. The grinding for justice and valor is paltry you get so little. I would be okay with that if justice gear wasn't weaksauce and valor didn't mean that i was pigeonhold into farming rep with a faction.

I got the context, that's why I posted the whole thing and not just the snippet. I think it's fair that we remember the context of the whole expansion. It was supposed to be about giving up options and diversity. They claim it does exactly that but from my perspective and the perspective of many people if you bother to read the forums it doesn't do that. For no good reason. Look if your concern is that people won't do dailies then limit the amount they get from dungeons. I still think that's more unnecessary gating but they don't even think that's needed. Their position is what bugs me more than anything. NOTHING will change.

And this is where the "Blizzard cannot win" argument comes in. I read what you said, but I disagree with your argument. There is a fine line between making them too good. I personally think that pre-LFD dungeons in Wrath were the prefect trade off of ease-of-access, reward, and stepping stone. In a post-LFD world you need to remember that the Heroic lockout is only for specifics, which are rarely done these days. This means that if they were to add more points and rep to the rewards they wouldn't have people out in the world yet again this expansion.

I have been to the official forums. What is my opinion of what is being written? A group of coddled casual players that "have a life" that don't want to be assed to put a little effort into getting rewards. I work 8 hrs a day 5 days a week just like the rest of the ppl on the forums, and I'm having the most fun I've ever had in the game to date right now. Most of the people I've seen whining about the large swing of "grind gungeons and you win" to "do dungeons and get out in the world to earn rewards" are fans of just afking in cities, getting into 2-3 dungeons in an hr, and then logging off. Blizzard is asking for more of a commitment than that.

---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 09:31 AM ----------

That is and was the same defense used at the start of cataclysm when people thought dungeons were to hard. Look how well that turned out. cata is also the last time they made a change that was also regressive much like this.

Sometimes to progress you need to regress. They lost 4 million subs over the course of Cataclysm... It was time to fix a few things, and I personally think this expansion is headed in the right direction.

[beanman12345]

No you can't get a full set of gear. I'm stuck waiting on two pieces from two specific bosses that never drop or get ninjad by assholes. In fact once those bosses are done I leave the dungeon. I don't care if their easy, please don't reduce my argument to that. They can be easy as shit and still be rewarding if the actual rewards are good and not paltry. The grinding for justice and valor is paltry you get so little. I would be okay with that if justice gear wasn't weaksauce and valor didn't mean that i was pigeonhold into farming rep with a faction.

I got the context, that's why I posted the whole thing and not just the snippet. I think it's fair that we remember the context of the whole expansion. It was supposed to be about giving up options and diversity. They claim it does exactly that but from my perspective and the perspective of many people if you bother to read the forums it doesn't do that. For no good reason. Look if your concern is that people won't do dailies then limit the amount they get from dungeons. I still think that's more unnecessary gating but they don't even think that's needed. Their position is what bugs me more than anything. NOTHING will change.

---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 09:18 AM ----------



Perspective. It does for people who don't like those things. In a very real sense it's bad for them. On the other hand you liking it doesn't make it good either nor does it make it particularly smart. Sorry. It's just criticism man. I think it's fair but whatever.

not perspective at all. I never said it was good or particularly smart. Do not put words in my mouth. I'm saying it's not so bad, because it's not that much different than how maxing your 25 dailies every day used to be. There are multiple ways to get gear. PvP/factions/dungeons/crafted gear/raiding, hell some of the 90 regular quest rewards are pretty decent. There is choice. RNG not giving you what you want, doesn't make it bad or stupid. Are dungeons rewarding? after a certain point if all your doing is lfd? no. That is what challenge modes are for. Should they tie reps to dungeons again? IMO No. Is the system perfect? not at all. But it's better then it has been in the last couple expansions.

[AiAtola]

not perspective at all. I never said it was good or particularly smart. Do not put words in my mouth. I'm saying it's not so bad, because it's not that much different than how maxing your 25 dailies every day used to be. There are multiple ways to get gear. PvP/factions/dungeons/crafted gear/raiding, hell some of the 90 regular quest rewards are pretty decent. There is choice. RNG not giving you what you want, doesn't make it bad or stupid. Are dungeons rewarding? after a certain point if all your doing is lfd? no. That is what challenge modes are for. Should they tie reps to dungeons again? IMO No. Is the system perfect? not at all. But it's better then it has been in the last couple expansions.

I agree with you, the system needs some tuning, but is much better the horrible Cata system.

[jazen]

So excited for LFR to start up again. Even though it doesn't drop much, so many 'elite' raiders will troll it for their missing gear and then qq/whine on forums about all the casuals making their LFR runs painfull.

[TheWindWalker]

Every time this topics pops up (and it's several different threads a day at this point), I remember this level 70 priest who was pulling serious DPS pre-5.0. She was our healer in a dungeon when I was getting an alt through Outlands. What was she doing in dungeons? Grinding rep. So, so, so much grinding needed to get the best twink gear. Pandaria isn't that far off from BC's tedium. It's just using the non-instanced open world as your grinding area.

[Butterball]

Theres got to be a happy medium somewhere.
-Cata was faceroll easy. I could get a toon to 85 and with a little luck be able to get into LFR within a day or so, and be ready for reg DS almost right away. Good for alts, bad to have anything to do afterwards, unless i wanted to run regular 9 times a week.
-MoP feels like its going to be an INSANE grindfest. not that I mind grinding itself, I used to enjoy a bit of rep grinding, and the dailies back in BC; but this seems insane. BRB tons of factions to do tons of dailies for, unless Im missing something, VP seems like it will be a b!tch to cap, at 30 per random and 5 for dailies.

Just pointing out that you are comparing the END of Cataclsym to the START of Mists. Its a false comparison, and not one that's useful.

[Glorious Leader]

And this is where the "Blizzard cannot win" argument comes in. I read what you said, but I disagree with your argument. There is a fine line between making them too good. I personally think that pre-LFD dungeons in Wrath were the prefect trade off of ease-of-access, reward, and stepping stone. In a post-LFD world you need to remember that the Heroic lockout is only for specifics, which are rarely done these days. This means that if they were to add more points and rep to the rewards they wouldn't have people out in the world yet again this expansion.

I have been to the official forums. What is my opinion of what is being written? A group of coddled casual players that "have a life" that don't want to be assed to put a little effort into getting rewards. I work 8 hrs a day 5 days a week just like the rest of the ppl on the forums, and I'm having the most fun I've ever had in the game to date right now. Most of the people I've seen whining about the large swing of "grind gungeons and you win" to "do dungeons and get out in the world to earn rewards" are fans of just afking in cities, getting into 2-3 dungeons in an hr, and then logging off. Blizzard is asking for more of a commitment than that.

---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 09:31 AM ----------



Sometimes to progress you need to regress. They lost 4 million subs over the course of Cataclysm... It was time to fix a few things, and I personally think this expansion is headed in the right direction.

yes the commitment they are asking for is currently eating up all the time I have to play the game and leaving me very little free time to do anything else. It is wholly regressive and the idea that you need to regress to progress is not only counter intuitive it's historically not accurate as far as wow is concerned. I guess I'm just coddled right? They've always been at their most sucessful when they've done things that make ease of access work in the players favor. People leaving cataclysm was a function of them simply not being able to release content fast enough. Even still with 9 months of no content release they still managed to keep 9 million players. The current system of gating things is almost as bad as 9 months of no content.


As for the rest what exactly was bad about the cataclysm model? You've really only traded grinding dungeons for grinding dailies. It's an improvement in the slightest, at least in any clear unambiguous sense. It's trading one model for the other. In fact from a consumer aspect I would argue it's worse. It's basically doing more with less. In any event it's certainly not clear to me that it's better or for that matter that it has to be the only way.

[Kio]

I have iLevel 460 after 1 day and 2 hours at 90.

Obviously not all at one time, but I consider myself casual since I work late nights and can't raid with any guilds.

[Glorious Leader]

I have iLevel 460 after 1 day and 2 hours at 90.

Obviously not all at one time, but I consider myself casual since I work late nights and can't raid with any guilds.

Congratulations the gods have smiled on you and granted you luck of the drop. I am leaving every dungeon that doesn't provide me with upgrades because hey look at that justice points provide jack shit...

[AiAtola]

Congratulations the gods have smiled on you and granted you luck of the drop. I am leaving every dungeon that doesn't provide me with upgrades because hey look at that justice points provide jack shit...

O noes, you don't have the best gear available in the game, omg you should blame the gods!

[Glorious Leader]

O noes, you don't have the best gear available in the game, omg you should blame the gods!

No. I blame Blizzard for abandoning a model they had for gearing that had been amazingly successful and wildly lauded for years. I guess I'm just coddled and entitled and need my obamacare?

[Kio]

Congratulations the gods have smiled on you and granted you luck of the drop. I am leaving every dungeon that doesn't provide me with upgrades because hey look at that justice points provide jack shit...

I haven't been completely lucky, my chest and belt are still quest items =/