These Rogue forums seem horribly outdated?

[Coldkil]

Well HaT gives combo points of anyone crits, including the Rogue - when Fan of Knives crits, it is counted for the bonus CP from Hat = 2 combo points.
Not sure why do you consider this strange, i find it awesome

It's more on the line 2/3 FoK - 5cp CT - again at 5 CP - ??? - profit.

[Deleted]

No-one should be playing a Rogue at this point. In doing so you are being selfish and damaging the class, you are sending a statement to Blizzard that you are happy to pay for sub-par work. The way Rogues were treated in the beta was beyond farcical, and the only way to react to that is by boycotting the class until they actually put the work into Rogues that would justify the expansion cost let alone the monthly subscription.

[Ryme]

No-one should be playing a Rogue at this point. In doing so you are being selfish and damaging the class, you are sending a statement to Blizzard that you are happy to pay for sub-par work. The way Rogues were treated in the beta was beyond farcical, and the only way to react to that is by boycotting the class until they actually put the work into Rogues that would justify the expansion cost let alone the monthly subscription.

In a different game, I'd agree with you. In WoW, it can be tougher to just up and switch class.

[Deleted]

In a different game, I'd agree with you. In WoW, it can be tougher to just up and switch class.

Then don't play the game as I am, if like me you only play a Rogue then it's tough luck for us I'm afraid, for the good of the class you should find another game to play or something else to do with your time in the intervening period. They will start to take our feedback into account when class rep falls below 5%, and I suspect it already has given the sudden blue posts feigning interesting in our problems. Drastic times call for drastic measures.

[Ryme]

Then don't play the game as I am, if like me you only play a Rogue then it's tough luck for us I'm afraid, for the good of the class you should find another game to play or something else to do with your time in the intervening period. They will start to take our feedback into account when class rep falls below 5%, and I suspect it already has given the sudden blue posts feigning interesting in our problems. Drastic times call for drastic measures.

Yes, but despite how much I think the class has nose dived, I still very much enjoy the raiding content. I don't want to give that up for at least an entire tier just to get Blizzard to look at something they already should have.

[Synexlol]

I find it amazing that Rogues are so incredibly dependent on guides that they can't do the simple math to work out how to gem/enchant/reforge. It's actually depressing that you guys cannot function without having your hand held. I'd really like to think that without my guide/EJ's guide, people could still play Subtlety. It seems that wasn't the case...

The EJ guides are, as of now, virtually content-less. They contain nothing of any real value. There are very rough "guides" to the rotations, filling a total of about 3 sentences in each thread, and that's about it. No "tips and tricks", no gemming or enchanting, no BIS-lists, no reforging priorities, nothing.

The EJ guides have rotations. You shouldn't need more than 2-3 lines to explain a rotation that is almost the exact same. And where there are differences, you can use common knowledge to figure out the ideal rotation yourself. Do you just spam Backstab over and over in raids now because EJ hasn't told you exactly what to do?

There's no new tips and tricks because nothing of note has changed. Go look at the old guides if you want tips and tricks from pre-MoP. It's not that much effort.

Do I really have to explain how to use EP values? All the information to know what enchants/gems are best is there. Even reforging priorities are given to you on a silver platter and you can't see it. Did you read the guides at all?

Pathetic...

[Deleted]

The EJ guides have rotations. You shouldn't need more than 2-3 lines to explain a rotation that is almost the exact same. And where there are differences, you can use common knowledge to figure out the ideal rotation yourself. Do you just spam Backstab over and over in raids now because EJ hasn't told you exactly what to do?

There's no new tips and tricks because nothing of note has changed. Go look at the old guides if you want tips and tricks from pre-MoP. It's not that much effort.

Do I really have to explain how to use EP values? All the information to know what enchants/gems are best is there. Even reforging priorities are given to you on a silver platter and you can't see it. Did you read the guides at all?

Pathetic...

Wow, you could actually fit all that in your ass, huh? I'm impressed.

I've been using EJ for years now, and I'm also a rather capable rogue. The fact of the matter is, the guides are very shallow, and lack a lot of content, and it takes more than some butthurt, internet tough guy to convince me of the opposite.

- Rotational priorities aren't the same as general rotations. Common Joe can probably figure out how to Backstab and then Eviscerate. But does he know whether it's optimal to start with Slice n' Dice or Rupture? Does he know which openers are best to use? Does he know why Rupture is as important as it is, for the different specs? Does he know why Killing Spree is best cast before Adrenaline Rush, and not after? Does he understand WHY his rotation is the way it is? Well, he certainly won't just by reading the EJ guides.

- How does "Nothing has changed, it's the same as last time" help someone who's never played before? That's just plain retarded.

- "No new tips and tricks..." Well, the new guy is dead certain to remember them old tips, right?!... Right...?

- Yes, because having one, new, fresh, and updated guide, with all the relevant information, is too much to ask for. Yeah, let people run through years of useless content and filter the "old" stuff from it by hand. We don't want to spoil them, do we?

- "It's not that much effort." Well, if it's not that much effort to find an old guide and read it, it's also not much harder to find that old guide and copy/paste the still relevant info over to the new thread. That's just a fucking stupid excuse for laziness.

If you waltz over to the Death Knight page on EJ, you'll find yourself some REAL guides, going through everything from individual abilities, presences, glyphs, talents, rotational priority lists, single- and AOE-rotations, BIS-lists, gemming, enchanting, and optimal professions/races,... Even going so far to recommend add-ons that might improve your gameplay experience. All of which comes with in-depth explanations. That's how a guide is made.

Hell, do you want a good rogue guide as well!? LOOK AT THE COMBAT GUIDE FOR 4.3!!! The current guides look NOTHING like that.

Now, this may not be for you! It may not be for me! But someone, somewhere, is new to this game! And the dps mechanics of wow can very easily be complicated for some people. The purpose of these guides, is to help these people establish themselves as whatever class they want to play as, or improve upon what they already know, by adding the magic of theory-crafting and experience to their knowledge; and as such, the current rogue guides are insufficient at best.

However, instead of realizing what these guides aim to do(or should aim to do), you went on to heavily generalize the entire rogue community as wimpy, useless sheep, while boasting about your own obvious superiority, because HEY; Every rogue, other than you, NEEDS EJ...! The fact that you had to validate your existence as the elitist prick you are, is sad in itself. That, my dear, is truly pathetic.

[Ryme]

I find it amazing that Rogues are so incredibly dependent on guides that they can't do the simple math to work out how to gem/enchant/reforge. It's actually depressing that you guys cannot function without having your hand held. I'd really like to think that without my guide/EJ's guide, people could still play Subtlety. It seems that wasn't the case...



The EJ guides have rotations. You shouldn't need more than 2-3 lines to explain a rotation that is almost the exact same. And where there are differences, you can use common knowledge to figure out the ideal rotation yourself. Do you just spam Backstab over and over in raids now because EJ hasn't told you exactly what to do?

There's no new tips and tricks because nothing of note has changed. Go look at the old guides if you want tips and tricks from pre-MoP. It's not that much effort.

Do I really have to explain how to use EP values? All the information to know what enchants/gems are best is there. Even reforging priorities are given to you on a silver platter and you can't see it. Did you read the guides at all?

Pathetic...

Because getting the same results as a 50k iteration sim is simple to do with basic math on your own!

[Synexlol]

Oh boy, you mad.

My point is that all the relevant information is there. Everything else is in old guides. Anyone with a basic understanding of maths can work out enchanting/gemming/reforging priorities, and even BiS lists. EJ gives you all of the information. If you want to know why the rotation works the way it does, then ask on EJ. But you don't need to know why you use Killing Spree before Adrenaline Rush to play the spec. And if you really want to know, it takes the tiniest little bit of logic to figure it out yourself anyway.

You say that EJ are lazy for not updating guides when all of the information is there if you care to look. Nobody owes you, or anyone, a guide. Quit being an entitled child, or make your own guide if you care so much. It's not difficult.

If the new guy isn't willing to research any more than checking the latest EJ guide, he wouldn't ever get a spot in my raid. 90% of the stuff EJ does is very simple to do yourself.

I'm not elitist, I just think that holding the hands of the Rogue community for the past 2 expansions has made everybody far too dependent on guides. To the point where the lack of said hand-holding causes an eruption of entitled kids to whine in unison about how the guide makers are the lazy ones. And your post proves me right. It's poetic really.

I'd like to repeat that point. You say that the people who write guides are the lazy ones. Seriously? It's not like EJ releases theorycraft tools every expansion. They also raid 5+ days a week (with at least one exception sure). They even released a full front-end for the benefit of the Rogue community. And you say they are lazy?! Yup, you definitely just proved me right.

edit:

Because getting the same results as a 50k iteration sim is simple to do with basic math on your own!

EJ gives you the EP values. Seriously.

[Deleted]

Oh boy, you mad.

My point is that all the relevant information is there. Everything else is in old guides. Anyone with a basic understanding of maths can work out enchanting/gemming/reforging priorities, and even BiS lists. EJ gives you all of the information. If you want to know why the rotation works the way it does, then ask on EJ. But you don't need to know why you use Killing Spree before Adrenaline Rush to play the spec. And if you really want to know, it takes the tiniest little bit of logic to figure it out yourself anyway.

You say that EJ are lazy for not updating guides when all of the information is there if you care to look. Nobody owes you, or anyone, a guide. Quit being an entitled child, or make your own guide if you care so much. It's not difficult.

If the new guy isn't willing to research any more than checking the latest EJ guide, he wouldn't ever get a spot in my raid. 90% of the stuff EJ does is very simple to do yourself.

I'm not elitist, I just think that holding the hands of the Rogue community for the past 2 expansions has made everybody far too dependent on guides. To the point where the lack of said hand-holding causes an eruption of entitled kids to whine in unison about how the guide makers are the lazy ones. And your post proves me right. It's poetic really.

I'd like to repeat that point. You say that the people who write guides are the lazy ones. Seriously? It's not like EJ releases theorycraft tools every expansion. They also raid 5+ days a week (with at least one exception sure). They even released a full front-end for the benefit of the Rogue community. And you say they are lazy?! Yup, you definitely just proved me right.

"I'm looking for someone who's been here before to take control of any of these threads. This opening post could be improved upon, and it's up to an ambitious individual to make that a reality." - Current Assassination thread on EJ.

I.e. they clearly state the threads need improvement and need someone to take care of them. That, combined with the track-record of significantly better guides in the past proves the point of these guides being in an inferior state, as of now. I rest my case. I would, however, like to retract my previous statement about them being "lazy"; That's bad wording on my part. "Unfinished" seems more appropriate.

What the social and mental effects these guides have on the rogue community, is a question I'll leave to your own, elitist, and bigoted self. However, I'd like you to give me a warning before you start any kind of ethical cleansing.

[Coldkil]

Stop useless fighting. Most of the posts could be perfect just by removing the names you're calling each other.

While synexlol is right about the fact that you don't need paragraphs to explain what the rogues need to do in a PvE enviroment, and EJ is definitely a good source of information, their spec threads atm aren't deep and complete.

Agree that anyone with some common sense could figure out the basics for every spec and be fine with that, but still there are some question still unanswered, like Anticipation for Assassination (with current energy regen, getting all 5cp envenoms reduces its uptime by a sensible margin - a thing that should be solved with better gear).

The things we need are all already out (i'm finishing to update the PvE guide with the last missing things), the things we want to know aren't all at hand right now.

[Ashvael]

A point which you've seemed to ignore, Incineration, is that you still need a person who is going to waste a lot of his own time writing decent guides with decent information. It's great that the Death Knights have someone who is doing it for them but possibly the Rogues currently don't have a person who is able to get the important information and still has time to write a guide.
It would be a very different thing if EJ or MMO paid people to keep stuff up-to-date and write new guides but this is not the case. People do it because they want to help the community with no real gain. People like Synex who wrote a Sub Guide or like me who wrote a 4.3 Patch guide. Those are only examples which were rather recent and I could remember on the top of my head. We are doing that kind of stuff when we have free time and simply want to help others, however this is not always the case.

Maybe other Rogues currently are less invested into the game as they used to be when writing their guides or are just not having the time they used to have. If you want the rogue guides to look good, contribute something to it. If you can't, don't expect others can.

Also, another point to notice is that a lot of the rogues in the top raiding guilds are being paid by their sponsors for guides on the sponsors' websites or the guild pages and not for EJ/MMO. For example I've been paid to write a German guide by our sponsor and I'm sure this is the case for many other guilds. EJ and MMO are not the only websites with information out there.

[Coldkil]

Personally, with work and the very long time needed to do the dailies right now, i am pretty much full - if i had to raid, i think i had no time at all for doing something else.

Dailies take too much time to be done - it's not about how many we have to do (the only 2 "mandatory" ones are golden lotus and tillers) but if i have to do them solo, it takes a lot of time due to a lot of people doing them and rogue damage being low, so it takes long to kill mobs.

I "solved" the problem partying with a mage - still it takes a couple of hours to do GL - klaxxi - tillers - cloud serpent.

[Deleted]

A point which you've seemed to ignore, Incineration, is that you still need a person who is going to waste a lot of his own time writing decent guides with decent information. It's great that the Death Knights have someone who is doing it for them but possibly the Rogues currently don't have a person who is able to get the important information and still has time to write a guide.
It would be a very different thing if EJ or MMO paid people to keep stuff up-to-date and write new guides but this is not the case. People do it because they want to help the community with no real gain. People like Synex who wrote a Sub Guide or like me who wrote a 4.3 Patch guide. Those are only examples which were rather recent and I could remember on the top of my head. We are doing that kind of stuff when we have free time and simply want to help others, however this is not always the case.

Maybe other Rogues currently are less invested into the game as they used to be when writing their guides or are just not having the time they used to have. If you want the rogue guides to look good, contribute something to it. If you can't, don't expect others can.

Also, another point to notice is that a lot of the rogues in the top raiding guilds are being paid by their sponsors for guides on the sponsors' websites or the guild pages and not for EJ/MMO. For example I've been paid to write a German guide by our sponsor and I'm sure this is the case for many other guilds. EJ and MMO are not the only websites with information out there.

1. To my knowledge, the point of someone "wasting" their free time to write the guide wasn't mentioned throughout the discussion at all, and therefore seemed irrelevant to me.
2. Yet, I did actually address it in my previous post when I said the guides weren't made with laze, but were just generally unfinished, since I can't exactly accuse someone who's working of his own free will to be lazy.
3. I don't see the actual relevance of all this to my original post?

I initially made the objective observation; The EJ guides are currently inferior to their other class-counterparts, and previous guides of the same nature. How that can turn into a debate regarding "the nature of the rogue community and whether they deserve an actual guide" or whether the state of these guides should be justified and defended, is beyond me.

Yes, there might be several reason why they're unfinished.
Yes, those reason may very well be valid, and justifiable reasons.
Does that increase the quality of the guides as they are?
No.

---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 08:49 AM ----------

I "solved" the problem partying with a mage - still it takes a couple of hours to do GL - klaxxi - tillers - cloud serpent.

Really!? They never felt that time consuming to me. Takes me an hour at most, I reckon. Haven't really been paying much attention to the time-consumption, though. Might have to do that.

[Coldkil]

Really!? They never felt that time consuming to me. Takes me an hour at most, I reckon. Haven't really been paying much attention to the time-consumption, though. Might have to do that.

Probably it's partially related to the fact i'm on a very populated server, but still mobs repop so fast that i don't think this impacts much on time required.

[Ashvael]

Your objective observation is correct. I'm not trying to argue that the rogue guides on EJ are good right now. I was trying to give insight as to why they might be lackluster and trying to state that you (as in general; not you, yourself) cannot expect/demand Rogue guides of full quality if you're not giving people anything in return.
I cannot see how I argued whether anyone deserves a Rogue guide (I guess that was directed to Synex) or tried to defend the state of the current guides. I was simply giving possible reasons as to why we don't have any decent guide on EJ/MMO.

A point I'd still like to repeat: If you want a good guide, contribute.

[Synexlol]

For what it's worth, I'm not trying to say that the Rogue guides at EJ (and here) are up to the standard I've seen before. They aren't. But Pathal is raiding at least 5 days/week with Drow I'd imagine, and both he and Aldriana are likely spending time working on a theorycrafting tool as-well. Some of those working on theorycraft tools don't even play the game/class anymore, and yet they find time to contribute to the Rogue community. It's amazing and getting any sort of guide out of the few people I see still contributing on EJ is admirable, and it's more than I would be able to do myself.

My point, however, was that all the information is there if you are willing to put in more effort than reading the OP of a guide. Even a 'newbie' can do that. Worst case scenario people can just make a thread here on MMO-Champion about EP values (or whatever you want to know), and I'd reply myself and explain it if I can.

But I must stress that all a guide serves to do is organize information into an easy-access format. The information is there to be found surprisingly easily if you are willing to put in the effort. Past the work that's done on the theorycrafting tools themselves, you can do it all yourself if you are willing to put in the effort. And if you don't know how, then ask. I (we) don't bite.

Lastly, as Ashvael said, if you want a guide so badly, make it yourself. If I can do it, anybody can. And I'm not even joking. There's no shortage of people here willing to give advice if you need it; I asked a lot of different people for advice before I wrote my first guide back during T11.