World First Race:

[vizzle]

If you don't find this thread worth reading then why are you responding to it?

Also this thread is about who will win world first, it is not a thread to discuss 10v25 mans. The simple fact is that if a 10 man guild gets world first then they will win the race, same goes for 25 man guilds. This is the first tier where a 10 man guild has a very realistic chance of being ranked #1. If that happens you will just have to deal with it.

It's like putting a bicycle and a runner together in a race, head to head. No matter how much you say there's no difference between the two, there is. Stop acting like 25man and 10man is exactly alike. The world firsts for both should be separate.

[thehordemage]

My comments as a non-partial raider in all of this. I have been following top guilds closely for 2 years now:

... In my opinion Exodus, who are undoubtedly a good guild, are not good enough to make a serious impact on the race. Also taking into account that Exodus, who had a whole gear reset over Paragon and Method in T13, couldn't even finish ahead of those guilds with a huge gear advantage. So how do you expect them to come anywhere near the top Euro guilds this Tier when everyone has an equal start.

1) For the record this is completely false. All 3 of those guilds had the same "crutch" after the LFR situation. With most of their players suspended, they all reverted to 10H raiding in the first week before resuming with 25H in the following. If anything credit them for a strong finish alongside guilds whose players were not suspended.

2) For 25H raiding Method is the favorite in Europe, Blood Legion is the favorite in US, and Stars is the favorite in Asia. Envy, Exodus, Vodka and all other closely ranked 25H guilds have fair shots as well. KIN Raiders also has a fair shot at world first but the onus is on them to show their Spine and Madness firsts weren't flukes. Paragon and In Extremis are the favorites for world first in the 10H category.

3) Time is the biggest advantage to any guild going after world firsts. To elaborate on my second point regarding favorites Method, Blood Legion, Stars, and Paragon: anyone who follows the weekly/monthly activities of these guilds knows the insane amounts of time they invest in the game. To prepare, these guilds raid on the PTR servers at almost every opportunity, including early mornings and afternoons on weekdays through many weeks. It is also a requirement for raiders to have several raid-ready alts (geared, enchanted, gemmed, with max raiding professions, in addition to knowing how to play them as well as their main) to run multiple raids in the first weeks to maximize the collection of gear on mains and to also be prepared for the possibility of class stacking to make certain encounters easier. As an example, we saw how Blood Legion ran 6 weekly 25H Firelands raids to accumulate the most Legendary staves possible for T13. Likewise each of their raider (and I'm sure some rival European guilds do as well) have 3 fully 470+ ilvl geared toons ready for the first week of heroics. It's almost embarrassing for guilds that push day in day out before the actual heroics even begin to lose out on world firsts after the immense time investment.

[Deleted]

It's like putting a bicycle and a runner together in a race, head to head. No matter how much you say there's no difference between the two, there is. Stop acting like 25man and 10man is exactly alike. The world firsts for both should be separate.

I am not saying that 10 and 25 mans are equal. Also this thread is not a discussion for whether 10 and 25 mans should be in a separate race.

As it stands 10 and 25 man both compete in the same race for world first. That is how it is, deal with it.

[SamR]

I am not saying that 10 and 25 mans are equal. Also this thread is not a discussion for whether 10 and 25 mans should be in a separate race.

As it stands 10 and 25 man both compete in the same race for world first. That is how it is, deal with it.

You think it's the same race. I think they're separate races.

Both world firsts will be posted on the front page of MMO-C. It's up to the readers to decide which race they care about. I'm going to guess that people will care more about world first 25-man heroic clear than world first 10-man heroic clear. But we'll find out soon!

[Deleted]

I hope for blood legion, have since wotlk

[torterra275]

Paragon doesn't count IMO, I vote for either Stars, Exodus, or Blood Legion.

[Deleted]

Oh, so that doesn't work the other way around you think?

Also, that comment of yours is pretty darn ignorant too, but I realise that never crossed your mind.

No it indeed doesn't work the other way around. 25man is harder than 10man and that is a fact, I've high end raided in both camps so I can comment on that. I know what I am talking about, I have years of experience raiding both 10man and 25man so I am in a position to say what I said. :-) I really don't care if I hurt some 10man kids feelings, get real, 25man is harder and thus should be considered world first and 10man can do whatever they wan't, but considering themselfs as the best guild in the world if they score a 10man "world first" is very ignorant and kind of pathetic really :-)

Infracted

[quiks]

No they cant FTH is now a shit Guild

Are you the ripslyme from Tichondrius in vanilla?

[Deleted]

Paragon doesn't count IMO, I vote for either Stars, Exodus, or Blood Legion.

Your opinion is wrong. If Paragon get world first, be it in 10 or 25 man then they HAVE won the race and will be ranked #1. People may not like the fact that 10 and 25 mans are not separate, but they aren't and never will be until there is a general consensus in the community to separate the two tiers.

If you strongly believe they should be separate use the 10 or 25 man only rankings page on wowprogress and use that to judge who you think is the best guild. But that does not stop the fact that the one who kills the boss first, be it 10 or 25, is the winner.

[Deleted]

Vodka has managed to run 74(!) toons through a full 6/6 normal modes.

At the same time "10 man" paragon is nicely standing at 35 toons with full normal modes clear and 25 of them in a single 25 (47th fastest 25 clear, in the world), that followed their 10 man main run.
Some things are hard to be abandoned, even though i am estimating that the loot went mostly to the 10 man mains and alts in that 25

KIN has 44 toons with 6/6 full clear, although the roster is gigantic and nobody can tell for sure if thats the total number.

---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 03:45 AM ----------

Your opinion is wrong. If Paragon get world first, be it in 10 or 25 man then they HAVE won the race and will be ranked #1. People may not like the fact that 10 and 25 mans are not separate, but they aren't and never will be until there is a general consensus in the community to separate the two tiers.

If you strongly believe they should be separate use the 10 or 25 man only rankings page on wowprogress and use that to judge who you think is the best guild. But that does not stop the fact that the one who kills the boss first, be it 10 or 25, is the winner.

Ehm no, that is totally wrong. You put horse next to horse and dog next to dog to race.

The only common thing between the 2, is that they re both lovable "animals".

Excactly the same analogy works for 10 and 25.
The only common thing they share, is that they 're both "raids".

[cFortyfive]

Paragon since 10 mans will be faceroll. And that for the horde is even mentioned is preposterous.

[vizzle]

I am not saying that 10 and 25 mans are equal. Also this thread is not a discussion for whether 10 and 25 mans should be in a separate race.

As it stands 10 and 25 man both compete in the same race for world first. That is how it is, deal with it.

Why? Because you're telling me to deal with it? You're not open for reasonable discussion?

It's ignorant to put them on the same race. Deal with it.

[Duridi]

No it indeed doesn't work the other way around. 25man is harder than 10man and that is a fact, I've high end raided in both camps so I can comment on that. I know what I am talking about, I have years of experience raiding both 10man and 25man so I am in a position to say what I said. :-) I really don't care if I hurt some 10man kids feelings, get real, 25man is harder and thus should be considered world first and 10man can do whatever they wan't, but considering themselfs as the best guild in the world if they score a 10man "world first" is very ignorant and kind of pathetic really :-)

Turning this into a 10 man vs. 25 man debate has nothing to do with the statement I quoted, and your opinion on the matter is irrelevant.

To refresh your memory;

25 > 10.

Always no matter even if the fight is tuned to favor 25 man. Why? Because finding 25 good players is so much harder than 10. And to communicate boss fights between 25 people is way harder. Thus it will always considered its superior.

Fact is, a lot of players do not consider 25 man superior. Obviously, if you want to walk around with the illusion that everyone looks up to you, you are free to do so.

Just the fact that, is it 90%?, of the raiding community are raiding 10 man, shows that the majority don't care about this so-called "superiority". Sure, some of them are people in favour of 25 man which are "forced" into 10 man, but obviously they are a heavy minority. Most people simply don't care if they are raiding 10 man of 25 man, which can also be translated into "I don't find any superior to the other". That's how the majority ends up in the 10 man guilds which takes less time to form, and makes it easier to gather only your closest friends and ignore everyone else.

[Nimitzles]

When do the US servers come online?

[Gilian]

I have always been a fan of Paragon so this tier I am still rooting for them. If/when Nihilum with Kungen are going to really compete for world first then I will be rooting for them.

[ShadowCrafter]

25 mans raiding was the pinnacle of raiding until end of WOLTK, At start of cata it was equal, now with so few 25 man raiding guilds left it's not even a race anymore.

10 mans is where it's at now with over 90% of guilds being 10man.

On wowprogress over 10 000 guilds have downed 1st boss, 952 being 25man and 9158 being 10man.

Just to think in WOLTK it was basically the other way around.

[Deleted]

I am not saying that 10 and 25 mans are equal. Also this thread is not a discussion for whether 10 and 25 mans should be in a separate race.

As it stands 10 and 25 man both compete in the same race for world first. That is how it is, deal with it.

Sorry, but as pretty much everyone else in this thread has pointed out, repeatedly, 10 and 25 man is not the same race. Just because the 10 and 25 man races happen at the same time doesn't make them the same race. If you want to believe they are that's your choice, but you're the one that's going to have to deal with the fact that the vast majority of people replying don't agree and are basing their discussion and predictions on them being different.

[Malic]

When do the US servers come online?

Would like to know this as well.
When will the race start?

[erikzn]

Would like to know this as well.
When will the race start?

Me too. In addition, anyone know of any streams yet?

[Nimitzles]

Me too. In addition, anyone know of any streams yet?

Realms will be down for 2 hours and backup up at 7am PDT, so the race begins in +- 5 hrs from now.

---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 09:13 AM ----------

25 mans raiding was the pinnacle of raiding until end of WOLTK, At start of cata it was equal, now with so few 25 man raiding guilds left it's not even a race anymore.

10 mans is where it's at now with over 90% of guilds being 10man.

On wowprogress over 10 000 guilds have downed 1st boss, 952 being 25man and 9158 being 10man.

Just to think in WOLTK it was basically the other way around.

Suprisingly low number of guilds have done the 1st boss since the xpac has been out for 2 weeks, thats +- 120 000 players out of 2.7million that bought the xpac.

Although I know a lot of people in casual/semi casual raiding guilds that used to do normals and a few hc bosses just taking it easy and only doing LFR this time around.