World First Race:

[TJ]

Paragon taking everyone to school.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Pff Paragon is doing 10man, its not an opinion but a fact that 10 man at least in mogushan vaults is a joke compared to 25, ive seen several guilds get stuck in a boss in 25man for hours, then they switch to 10man and 1shot it.

[TJ]

Pff Paragon is doing 10man, its not an opinion but a fact that 10 man at least in mogushan vaults is a joke compared to 25, ive seen several guilds get stuck in a boss in 25man for hours, then they switch to 10man and 1shot it.

Whilst true, 10 mans in the past haven't been this far ahead.

[Grevie]

I can see 2 separate Races Here, and it's clear Paragon is way superior than any other 10 man out of there.
Why? the answer is super simple, just do the math.

[Intoeternity]

Pff Paragon is doing 10man, its not an opinion but a fact that 10 man at least in mogushan vaults is a joke compared to 25, ive seen several guilds get stuck in a boss in 25man for hours, then they switch to 10man and 1shot it.

Yeah obviously...

Percentage of kills...

25 Normal Stone Guard: (97.78%) vs 10 Normal Stone Guard: (95.26%)
25 Heroic Stone Guard: (10.35%) vs 10 Heroic Stone Guard: (1.09%)
25 Normal Feng: (73.07%) vs 10 Normal Feng: (66.06%)
25 Heroic Feng: (2.39%) vs 10 Heroic Feng: (0.21%)

10 heroic is obviously easier

[starkey]

Then you would think being easier, more guilds would be doing 10 mans

[Intoeternity]

More guilds are doing 10 mans... the balance of kills between 25 and 10 show the difficulty differences. People are just too blind or bandwagon happy to see it.

[Grevie]

Yeah obviously...

Percentage of kills...

25 Normal Stone Guard: (97.78%) vs 10 Normal Stone Guard: (95.26%)
25 Heroic Stone Guard: (10.35%) vs 10 Heroic Stone Guard: (1.09%)
25 Normal Feng: (73.07%) vs 10 Normal Feng: (66.06%)
25 Heroic Feng: (2.39%) vs 10 Heroic Feng: (0.21%)

10 heroic is obviously easier

Or the quality of players on 25 is better than 10 man, we can assume alot of things, but right now
the Data show me than paragon players are way superior than any other 10 man guild around.

Try to compare 10 vrs 25 will not give any productive result, because if you play in a 10 man
guild you must see what the other 10 man guilds are doing and if you play in a 25 man guild
you must check the rest 25 man guild.

Right now for me 25 guilds are on close competition, but on 10 man Paragon is showing the
the real quality of their 10 man competition.

[Intoeternity]

Try to compare 10 vrs 25 will not give any productive result.

Sure it does. Look at the numbers. People saying 10 is easier are not speaking from experience after this one night of heroic raiding. They are speaking from previous expansions. Yes 10 was easier last expansion. We're two days into heroics and people are still saying the same thing.. but the thing is, the people saying it are the people that have yet to try both 10 and 25 heroic stone guard.

[Papapwn]

Whilst true, 10 mans in the past haven't been this far ahead.

Doesnt matter, its common sense that its harder to lead 25 people than to lead 10 people. Also every single top end raider wants to be doing 25 mans since thats what matters and thus the quality of 10 man guilds wont ever be as good as the few top end 25 man guilds.

25 man raiding will always be better than 10 simply for the fact that its way harder to lead more people and thus more challenging. I love how when paragon was 25m everyone would discount 10 man guilds. lolhypocrites

[Grevie]

Sure it does. Look at the numbers. People saying 10 is easier are not speaking from experience after this one night of heroic raiding. They are speaking from previous expansions. Yes 10 was easier last expansion. We're two days into heroics and people are still saying the same thing.. but the thing is, the people saying it are the people that have yet to try both 10 and 25 heroic stone guard.

No, it does not, the numbers say nothing , lets >assume< (that the key word), what about if i take your numbers and i say more semihardcore players choose to play 10 man, so that will "probably" explain why the numbers are like that, and why Paragon is
5/16 and the competition is 2/16, and i'm just assuming, i'm not stating a fact.

[SamR]

Sure it does. Look at the numbers. People saying 10 is easier are not speaking from experience after this one night of heroic raiding. They are speaking from previous expansions. Yes 10 was easier last expansion. We're two days into heroics and people are still saying the same thing.. but the thing is, the people saying it are the people that have yet to try both 10 and 25 heroic stone guard.

We'll see it on Monday. If any 25-man guilds stuck on a heroic 25 boss switch to heroic 10 to kill the boss before the reset.

[Deleted]

kin raiders disbanded if im right?

[Deleted]

I thought you might be trolling but I'm not sure if you're even capable of that.

First of all, I was going for ironic humor, obviously you didn;t get that. Apologies

Secondly, just because you think your opinion is special because you are in Paragon doesn't make it any more important or valid than the opinions of others.

You may state that you are in a different race than the 25 man guilds, but you are not. The guild who gets World First is the winner of the race, at the minute you and your guild are one boss away from that.

If your Achievement pops up that says 'Heroic: Will of the Emperor' before Method or the other guilds then you have won the race. You can claim you are not racing against Method and that may be true but that does not stop the fact that you will be world first.

Blizzard themselves made the Realm First Achievement count in both 10 and 25 mans why would the same not apply to World First? You do realize your own argument is invalid by saying you are not in the same race as the 25 man guilds, yet if you go to wowprogress you will find yourself ranked #1 on the homepage. You may not be racing against Method but you are beating them nonetheless.

Infact, it is hypocritical of your guild, who's members, in the past have slated guilds such as Ensidia for switching to 10 man to clear content faster to help get World Firsts. Your guild is now wiping the floor with 10 mans, effectively ruining the race for 25 man guilds. Let's say Paragon get world first 10 man and Method get world first 25 man. No matter how much you claim that you were not racing against Method you will have overshadowed their 25 man world first by being ranked higher than them on wowprogress, which everyone uses for rankings.

It would have been better for your guild to keep raiding 25 man, disbanding or merging with another guild.

Paragon at 5/6 =) The next 10 man guilds still at 2/6 =(

What did you expect? Judging by that comment you are disappointed with the lack of competition in your 10 man race. Also that is offensive to 10 man guilds, you are basically saying how much better you are than them. Your guild, at the end of Firelands, basically came out and said 10 man was a joke. Now you are raiding 10 man and destroying them but gaining no credit for doing so since Paragon said 10 mans are easier. Thus your 10 man world first will mean nothing because it is 'easy' all you are doing now is getting ranked #1 on wowprogress by doing easy content... which you don't deserve by your own logic.

It is like Ussain Bolt racing in the special olympics, winning and claiming to be the best.

[Deleted]

Firstly, you're*.

Secondly, you're using flawed logic. When comparing boss difficulty, you can only look backwards, you cannot look to the future. When you couple this with the fact that, as time goes on, Blizzard gains more experience and more knowledge in designing and tuning encounters, thus they are better-able to create challenging content; you should realise that just because Lich King was considered harder than, say, Illidan. Illidan when it was current content was considered beyond ridiculous in difficulty. The same can be applied the previous bosses before Illidan, and thus you should only really be comparing the number of World Firsts as no World First is easy.
In this respect, Nihilum wins.

Anyway, OT, hard to look beyond Paragon. 25 mans consider 10 mans easier as they have all the classes and resources that most 10 mans do not. Trimming down a 25-man roster to a 10-man roster means you're left with the best 10 for progression. It's a very strong combination.

Illidan was never considered ridiculous in difficulty. Black temple was easy. friiikkin easy. only roadblock was shazzrah, bosses up to her were simply rewards for having killed vashj + kael, I do not know of a single guild that spent more than 3 weeks progressing till shazzrah.

[maxiixam]

Illidan was never considered ridiculous in difficulty. Black temple was easy. friiikkin easy. only roadblock was shazzrah, bosses up to her were simply rewards for having killed vashj + kael, I do not know of a single guild that spent more than 3 weeks progressing till shazzrah.

only roadblock was shazzrah, bosses up to her were simply rewards for having killed vashj + kael, I do not know of a single guild that spent more than 3 weeks progressing till shazzrah.

shazzrah

Shazzrah was in MC. Don't you mean Mother Shahraz?

[Deleted]

I am very rarely tempted to make assertions about a person's intellect but you DarthThrall are pushing the limits of the gene pool.

There is such a thing as a ladder built by the community with rules arranged by themselves.
Now in the raiding community the competitors and more so the protagonists are the ones that get first say,
arguably they're the ones determining their play field.
Blizzard has limited say in this same as they have limited say in for example how you disperse loot in your guild (be it LC, 0sum, SK or whatever)

I've yet to see a member of a high ranking raiding guild in the 10man or the 25man bracket claim that their race is identical, in fact most recognize that it is different without making claims as to which is harder or easier (this varies by content cycle, from tier to tier and boss to boss)

The fact that they are different is enough to have 2 ladders.

So your thinly veiled insults/"opinion" is frankly irrelevant.

[gymtansmush]

Servers up and paragon already 3/6...

don't edit my post you euro fag.

Mod Edit: Infracted

[Nighthawk1027]

Paragon is just insane, those guys are machines

[Falling]

Secondly, just because you think your opinion is special because you are in Paragon doesn't make it any more important or valid than the opinions of others.

I bet the only reason that he actually bothered to make a post was because you basically said that only a post made by Paragon would be valid...

Any your opinion matters why?

Only a Paragon member can come out and say that for it to be taken seriously. Otherwise go away please.

Also:

Paragon at 5/6 =) The next 10 man guilds still at 2/6 =(

What did you expect? Judging by that comment you are disappointed with the lack of competition in your 10 man race. Also that is offensive to 10 man guilds, you are basically saying how much better you are than them. Now you are raiding 10 man and destroying them but gaining no credit for doing so since Paragon said 10 mans are easier. Thus your 10 man world first will mean nothing because it is 'easy' all you are doing now is getting ranked #1 on wowprogress by doing easy content... which you don't deserve by your own logic.

Firstly, you are the one who says 10man and 25man should count towards the same, singular, goal. Which means that 10 and 25man are both worth just as much, but results in only one winner.

Paragon wants to split the race into two races which leads to both winners splitting the fame, or that the ones rooting for one race turns the blind eye to the other. Which basically means that Paragon themselves claim they gain a lot of credit for winning the 10man race, even tho the difficulty might differ from 25man.

"What did you expect?" I believe most people raiding 10man, and 25man for that matter, is hugely disappointed by the lack of competition that is shown now that Paragon is demolishing the bracket. Most people thought at least some guilds in the 10man bracket knew their thing.

The only thing you are correct about is that they don't deserve the whole fame of being first, because it should be split, because by top guild logic the race is made of two brackets, resulting in two winners, not one.

Also, I read this thread because the title might lure some interesting posters in here, rest assured, I don't read it for your posts, DarthThrall.

My picks for nr 1:
Wishlist: Suit Up or Vodka.

Reality:
10man - Paragon
25man - Envy, Why Me or Exodus. I can't decide yet. Method is obviously taking the 2nd place in this bracket as always.