World First Race:

[Crazyjoe]

The best comparison is futsol vs. soccer, which is what someone pointed out a few pages back. You can't compare the two. They need the same talents, they need the same skills, but they're fundamentally different.

I do agree the logistic of running a 25 man raiding guild is a lot more difficult outside of raids and 25 man raids should be compensation and I do agree with your reply that blizzard wants to kill off 25 man raiding. No one in there right minds forming a brand new guild today would try to form a 25 man raiding guild. So for every 25 man guilds that dies 1 or 2 10 man guilds take its place.

[Deleted]

A better comparison might be a runner with 2 legs against a runner with 4.5 legs...?

Actually, it would be a runner with 5 legs.

[DreamCast]

Ok not sure if I have been bullshitted here or not but apparently ingame friend from Finland reckons with current gear on 10 man Paragon might not be able to down Will of the Emperor. So I think a 25 man raiding guild will still take get it by dropping a healer or 2.

[Frozendekay]

Paragon and method members have already posted here - 10 and 25 are not the same thing. Arguing which is harder is pointless. There is a world 1st 10 man and a world 1st 25 man, they are separate things. This argument is the biggest circlejerk I've ever seen on these forums.

[Deleted]

A better comparison might be a runner with 2 legs against a runner with 4.5 legs...?

According to the 25 = 10 people, the winner of the Wimbledon singles tournament is also doubles champion.

[Zoma]

According to the 25 = 10 people, the winner of the Wimbledon singles tournament is also doubles champion.

They don't share a lockout. Serena Williams won both at London.

[Deleted]

The Taiwanese and Korean servers have now started, Stars on 2/16H and Kin Raiders on 1/16H. I'm still backing Stars when it all gets worked out Blood Legion doing awfully well though...

[Sughs]

They're world first 10 man. "World first" is meaningless in the current raid model, only "World first 10" and "World first 25" make sense. Personally, what some 10 man guild kills or when is not interesting to me, it's not that big of an achievement when it's just 10 people. But I'm sure it's very interesting to them, and other 10 man raiders though.

Paragon themselves said they are going 10 man because they're no longer able to compete in the 25 man bracket due to the lower quality of the recruit base.

World first 10 and World first 25 makes sense? They share the same achievement as far as i know. I don't understad how the firsts can not be the firsts.

Let's say Paragon is WF. And Blood Legion goes second. How can Blood Legion say they are firsts if someone finished the race before theme?

People argue that 25 man is more dificult, even if it is true 10 man has cos aswell. For example if 3 people die in 25 man it's hard but maybe you can still defeat the boss. If only 2 people or even sometimes only 1 person dies in 10 man it's over. It takes less skilled people but all of theme have more responsability on their shoulders.

[Domiku]

10 man guild don't count, so go go blood legion. Even Paragon once said 10 was more easy than 25. The harder encounter and raid size wins and that is 25 man.

World first 25 man and world first 10 man the guilds can claim these as there own. But in the players eyes or at least mine the 25man guild was the real first guild as its the most challenging they did the most work.

Think of it like another game with Easy Normal and Hard mode. Paragon are playing on Normal Blood legion on Hard. If the game is complete first on normal and then someone does it on hard after i would count the Hard mode as the real final of end all its done.

Even if paragon do get it first on 10 man it was not the most hard setting in game. The hard setting is 25 man mode. Paragon just did it on normal mode... (going on the above easy/normal/hard setting)

[Sughs]

The Taiwanese and Korean servers have now started, Stars on 2/16H and Kin Raiders on 1/16H. I'm still backing Stars when it all gets worked out Blood Legion doing awfully well though...

What about the Chinese ones? Unless they are still in Cata. I am not sure.

[Deleted]

World first 10 and World first 25 makes sense? They share the same achievement as far as i know. I don't understad how the firsts can not be the firsts.

First is first, it's just meaningless to compare two different things. They are different raid formats and different races. The fact that they give the same achievement is just Blizzard's usual incompetence.

[Chizo]

10 man guild don't count, so go go blood legion. Even Paragon once said 10 was more easy than 25. The harder encounter and raid size wins and that is 25 man.

But in the players eyes or at least mine the 25man guild was the real first guild as its the most challenging they did the most work.

agree.
not that i am saying 10x is easy,but if any case 25x have 2,5 time harder to get whole raid,not to fail,achive something so more time you need 2 stay focus.

so my vote goes 2 25x raiders,they are real deal.10x is easy *way out*.

[Sughs]

First is first, it's just meaningless to compare two different things. They are different raid formats and different races. The fact that they give the same achievement is just Blizzard's usual incompetence.

I can accept that they are 2 different races. But even if they are, who kills the boss first is the guild that will be remembered.

[Deleted]

IF 25 man raid is significant harder then 10 man raids, then 25 Man First kill will be remembered as the "first" kill, else you could start state that Nomal kill was the first kill.. since that is actually/equally true.

Now noone can for 100% sure tell if 10 man is easier then 25 man.

But in my nostalgic view i do give more respect to 25 guilds then 10 man, due to the fact it is much harder to put together such a group then getting 10 ppl together.

[Deleted]

What about the Chinese ones? Unless they are still in Cata. I am not sure.

Apparently they got MoP on 2 October, I've no idea about raiding there though, sorry :/

[Raelbo]

First is first, it's just meaningless to compare two different things. They are different raid formats and different races. The fact that they give the same achievement is just Blizzard's usual incompetence.

You can only call it incompetence if the race winner is decided mostly by the raid format.

The way things currently look, there is no way to determine that. Paragon are winning and are a 10 man raid. Given that they used to win while raiding 25 man this tells us nothing.

However, it is rather likely that the best team will still end up winning, and that raid format actually has very little to do with it.

[Layuth]

yea trying to find 25ppl is hard enough these days haha.

From the way Ghostcrawler sounded at Blizzcon, he wasn't sure his guild would be able to pick up 5 extra people...so yeah..it is hard.

[Deleted]

Blood Legion has my support, always had.

And it looks like they're on the track for the lead right now.

[Haizer]

Do you have a source on that?

I would, but I don't feel like digging for shit posted 5 years ago. 25 man started first, they already have the information and teams to balance it set up. All they have to do after that is downgrade it all so it fits with 10 people rather than 25.

I'm not sure I follow the point you were getting at now?

/facepalm

I'll give you that barely any 25s are doing this casually, but I do doubt how many 10s are at this early stage. As for the low numbers, they're high enough for at least the first 4. After that, it gets somewhat sketchy, but that's when it's considered harder for 10 man any way.

You can read more about how it's calculated here: http://www.wowtrack.org/faq#relative_difficulty

I don't think you understand how statistics works. Let me show you:
Stone Guard:
887 out of 901 guilds have killed on 25man- 22175 total people
6378 out of 6652 guilds have killed on 10man- 63780 total people

The difference between the two is massive. Considering 10man is 15 people less than 25man, and 43000 less people have killed it on 25man than 10man you can successfully say 10man is massive amounts easier. Though you will disagree, which is right to do, but this is going by your logic. The numbers are so skewered due to there being 7 times as many guilds doing 10man than 25man.

Now if you were referring to heroic specifically, there isn't enough information to go off it at this moment. It's only been 3 days since heroic was launched, and any information up until now is void of any statistical value.

Also, Elegon and Will is a complete joke on 10man. We had a raid of 25man and 10man do it, our 25man was stuck on Elegon for a day while our 10man breezed past it. Then our 25man just couldn't kill Will while our 10man 2 shot it. Now going for heroic, I hope the last 2 bosses are harder than the other 4 on both difficulties.

I'd wager since the majority of raiders are 10 man, they will more easily accept a 10 man winner than you think.

...re-read what I said.

[Ryme]

Goood job not understanding analogies.

It's a broken analogy is why, I get the point you think you're making, and even agree with it to an extent, but that analogy doesn't fit.