Guardian stat Prioirty Please help

[TheeTova]

The Effective Health can be extended to how much FR healing you can get in there instead of mitigation too. So the EH thing becomes even more complicated in that it extends beyond just physical damage. Living 3.5 is a combination of mastery stam RPS (to HPS). This is why I left out the stam discussion because it is so subjective.

For example 3.5 hits over say 2 sec swing timer is 7 sec. With the amount of RPS I have there is no where there is a 7 second gab where I can't have SD or use a 60 rage FR. EH is a thing of the past imo, well not the past but now much more complicated. With the tanking mechanics the way they are now is why I've gone to RPS.

Again this all comes back to dam vs phys dam vs dodgable dam vs FR HPS.

[Gemini Soul]

So given Theetova's claims about the value of haste, hit and expertise, the only thing I feel I can safely stack is crit! This is where both the theorycraft I've read for the past 2 months and Theetova's opinion agree. As for haste, hit, expertise, mastery etc. that all appears to be up in the air? Since armour is so devalued on many fights due to the nature of the fights, is it not safer to go along Theetova's line of thought and stack, basically, dps stats?

You want to be Hit/Exp-Dodge cap'ed for a very simple reason RNG.

The problem not capping them is that even if you are at the RPS needed to maintain the maximum up time on SD, it doesn't mean that you will earn that rage when you need it ASAP to keep up SD as much as you can every single time.

By capping them your incoming rage will be a lot more steady and you will be able to maintain maximum SD up time at all times when needed. Plus you will have extra rage to toss out a FR when needed while not messing up your SD up time, also capping them turns Berserk and Incarnation if you have it both into Tanking CD because with you being capped when you pop them your RPS is going to sky rocket and your going to be able to pop out awesome FR healing while keeping maximum up time on SD.

I reforge Hit/Exp-Dodge cap>Crit>Dodge>Mastery>Haste>Exp-Parry


Our mastery has a diminishing return on it that makes it rather weak, it gives us more armor but that armor it gives us has diminishing returns.

[TheeTova]

Of course it is personally preference on whether you go hit/exp cap. I've said it before though, if you're on that values hit/exp higher than haste, there is NO difference in soft cap and hard cap. If you're are worried about rng any exp up to hard cap is just as good as 0% to 1% exp. There is no diminishing returns and you are never behind a boss to avoid parry.

Second argument I always make is a little less constancy on hitting doesn't make any difference to me. We have 100 rage bars that take 10 sec or more to fill. I don't worry about this rng because I'm not worried on a hit to hit basis. Plus we have other tools like enrage, berserk and inc to generate rage in situations that we need to have it.

I'd rather have more overall then worry about my next hit.

Note: just my preference atm. I don't think hit/exp over haste is wrong. I bet it works out to more over all dps and since we're doing the deeps! Why not!

[Themessiah]

Thank you for this clarification.

[Gemini Soul]

Of course it is personally preference on whether you go hit/exp cap. I've said it before though, if you're on that values hit/exp higher than haste, there is NO difference in soft cap and hard cap. If you're are worried about rng any exp up to hard cap is just as good as 0% to 1% exp. There is no diminishing returns and you are never behind a boss to avoid parry.

Second argument I always make is a little less constancy on hitting doesn't make any difference to me. We have 100 rage bars that take 10 sec or more to fill. I don't worry about this rng because I'm not worried on a hit to hit basis. Plus we have other tools like enrage, berserk and inc to generate rage in situations that we need to have it.

I'd rather have more overall then worry about my next hit.

Note: just my preference atm. I don't think hit/exp over haste is wrong. I bet it works out to more over all dps and since we're doing the deeps! Why not!

Capping Hit/Exp-Dodge makes Berserk and Incarnation even better because we will get even more rage from more of those mangles landing meaning we can maintain SD and use FR even more because more mangles are landing, plus w/o capping that extra haste is giving you more white attacks that will miss, dodge, and parry.

Granted going for exp-parry will reduce the chance of attacks landing but after Hit/Dodge that is 7.5% which is nothing but before those caps depending on gear some can easily be sitting 15-20% chance for attacks not to land granted haste and crit will give rage but the more chance you have for your attacks not to land the less effective they are at giving rage.

[Embermoon]

I'm trying to make sure I have my head wrapped around this, properly:

- Hit/Expertise are desirable, as they provide a smoother, steadier rage generation from both white and yellow attacks.
- Crit is desirable, due to the spikes in rage generation provided, when mangles and white hits crit (via the primal fury guardian ability)
- Mastery is desirable, as it multiplies both armor and bonus armor (via the nature's guardian mastery)
- Dodge is desirable, as it increases dodge chance, versus attacks that are on the combat table
- Haste is (desirable? decent?) as it increases rage generation, through more white hits and lower CD on feral faerie fire (which I think is our 2nd highest-hitting single-target special?)
- Stamina is desirable, as it provides a larger health pool, but also boosts the healing received from frenzied regen, since FR heals as a function of health.

So, with all of that said, what I'm not clear on is the priority between dodge, mastery, and stamina. It all seems subjective to both the individual boss fight, as well as the size and composition of the raid group (as has been said).

I also don't understand what types of attacks aren't on the combat table (referring to Arielle's Guardian FAQ, on this forum - under the Crit section).

Does the priority of crit > dodge, on Bloodrayne's reforge strategy, above, allow crit to serve as that "choice buffer" (meaning popping SD or FR) when the incoming damage shifts to more physical, or more magical, while still having dodge and mastery, in the background?

And, what about gemming? I've seen two paths that make sense to me; crit-centric and stam-centric. Assuming 463 gear level, and doing normals, would I be correct in thinking that crit-centric gemming would serve me better?

[TheeTova]

And, what about gemming? I've seen two paths that make sense to me; crit-centric and stam-centric. Assuming 463 gear level, and doing normals, would I be correct in thinking that crit-centric gemming would serve me better?

I would say yes. What I have been doing is getting my desired stam from my trinkets. It's easy to switch out stam from trinkets to other stats for RPS rather than regemming or enchanting. I've been pretty much using stam trinkets for everything though.

---------- Post added 2012-10-24 at 08:38 PM ----------

Crap, deleted a post!

@Bloodrayne


In my math it is not the case that hit/exp gives more rage than haste. I do agree thought that hit/exp does improve brez/Inc.

All this hit/exp talk makes me want to see the dps increase from hit/exp over haste. See how much RPS I would lose.

[underdogba]

Go secondary heavy with your gemming, and acquire a variety of trinkets.

The reason is that if you need stam for a fight, it's more efficient to get it from trinkets instead of gems, because on trinkets you trade stam vs secondaries at a ratio of 1.5 : 1, whereas on gems it's traded at 0.75 : 1.

[Gemini Soul]

I also don't understand what types of attacks aren't on the combat table (referring to Arielle's Guardian FAQ, on this forum - under the Crit section).

Does the priority of crit > dodge, on Bloodrayne's reforge strategy, above, allow crit to serve as that "choice buffer" (meaning popping SD or FR) when the incoming damage shifts to more physical, or more magical, while still having dodge and mastery, in the background?

And, what about gemming? I've seen two paths that make sense to me; crit-centric and stam-centric. Assuming 463 gear level, and doing normals, would I be correct in thinking that crit-centric gemming would serve me better?

Things not on the table are pretty much DoT's(Dog Bleeds/Feng wep stacks etc) and Magic based attacks raid wide or tank hitting only(Doll mechanic for ex on Gara and the shadow bolts/grasps)

That is exactly why i reforged that way.

Gem wise what i do is

Red-Guardian (Purple)Exp/Stam gemming this exp here allows me to reforge more crit while also getting socket bonus.
Yellow-Jagged (Green)Crit/Stam
Blue-Pure stam but you can also put Jagged in if you prefer.

In bear form w/ Mark and HoTW talent (no raid buffs) i sit at
547K HP
7.51% Hit
7.65% Exp
32.99% Crit
15.63% Dodge
87K armor 59.94% reduc VS 93/Raid boss

I use Mad Hozen Elixir- Crit 750 rating Battle and Mantid- 2,250 Armor Guardian instead of a flask because I have enough health to survive any thing giving healers more of a buffer to make sure others are healed w/o worrying about me as much.

I have enough rage incoming to make great use of SD, FR, and I can toss out some mauls. Plus on fights like Dogs where we get Cobalt trap even though hes not doing petrify I can eat traps opening up space for melee, chains, pools etc and not worry about dieing cause my healers know that I will self heal it up np.

---------- Post added 2012-10-24 at 04:11 PM ----------

@Bloodrayne


In my math it is not the case that hit/exp gives more rage than haste. I do agree thought that hit/exp does improve brez/Inc.

All this hit/exp talk makes me want to see the dps increase from hit/exp over haste. See how much RPS I would lose.

Haste only increases Auto Attack rage generation, while Hit/Exp increase Auto Attack, Mangle, and helps proc more mangles because more Thrash and Lacerates are connecting and can/will proc more mangles.

[TheeTova]

I know that haste is only melee (white) attacks. That was all worked into the calculations. It is still better to have haste because so much of our rage is from melee attacks. All the hit and exp has been also worked into lac, thrash and FF hits that proc mangles 25% of the time. IF you are curious pls feel free to go through the spreadsheet to see my math. I'm always open to corrections and suggestions.

Rage From
-------Hit Crit
Melee 11 26
Mangle 5 20

And we get a lot more melee attacks than mangles.

[Hinalover]

Haste only increases Auto Attack rage generation, while Hit/Exp increase Auto Attack, Mangle, and helps proc more mangles because more Thrash and Lacerates are connecting and can/will proc more mangles.

Don't forget that FF also helps procs more mangles (again only 25%). This falls under the update "spell hit" model where Hit Rating + Exp Rating (up to 7.5%) = Spell Hit.

[TheeTova]

Looking again I may need to make some adjustments

[Hinalover]

I know that haste is only melee (white) attacks. That was all worked into the calculations. It is still better to have haste because so much of our rage is from melee attacks. All the hit and exp has been also worked into lac, thrash and FF hits that proc mangles 25% of the time. IF you are curious pls feel free to go through the spreadsheet to see my math. I'm always open to corrections and suggestions.

Rage From
-------Hit Crit
Melee 11 26
Mangle 5 20

And we get a lot more melee attacks than mangles.

I may need to look at your code again, but the way I have it set up in Rawr is basically (2.5 / (1 + haste %) * (1 - (Hit + Exp))

[TheeTova]

Yeah, now that I'm looking more into dps, I have come across an oversight.

my chance to proc a mangle assumes 3 actions between 6 second mangles so we get 25%^3 chance of getting a mangle proc

This should be (%proc*%Non Miss)^3

And all this time... you guys fighting for hit over haste. It does come out to more.

*hangshead*

[Gemini Soul]

Yeah, now that I'm looking more into dps, I have come across an oversight.

my chance to proc a mangle assumes 3 actions between 6 second mangles so we get 25%^3 chance of getting a mangle proc

This should be (%proc*%hit)^3

And all this time... you guys fighting for hit over haste. It does come out to more.

*hangshead*

Takes a big man to admit he was wrong but an even bigger fat hairy butt bear to admit that. Now that we have it covered lets look more in depth at Dodge, Mastery, and Stam.

Is there as reachable soft cap on dodge/mastery taking into account diminishing returns? Both dodge and the diminishing returns we get from armor(lvl difference and general diminishing) taking into account the mastery raid buff and maximum SD usage. They both reduce the over all melee dmg we take but can we honestly say which is better over all.

Dodge makes our dmg more spikey mastery removes the spike and makes it more steady. Personally i think dodge is the way to go Gara shadow attacks for example.


This is something i would love to see graphed out.

We lost so much EH with the new mastery that it seems like getting more Stam is the way to go.

[TheeTova]

Yeah it is tough to get hard numbers on dodge mastery and stam. For me it's more of comparing those things to FR and such in my head.

Atm I'm just using my trinket slots to make those changes when I feel like I want my stam or if it's better to get something else.

[Sonnillon]

A very dumb question, if I change trinkets for a fight to get more stamina or DPS stat, then the trinkets mess up the stats. I mean right now I have my cat's Direbrew and Steel Talisman equipted, instead of the both stamina ones. Which brings my hit waaaaaaaay over the cap (usually it was 6,7% or something). Should have the each of the possible trinkets I can and will use reforged to fit bear (granted hit/Exp trinkets are bit pain as you need to reforge at some case the entire gear, but..) or ignore the fact that I loose "valuable stat reforges" if I don't reforge?

What about ignoring the agility socket bonus, worth it or not?

Someone spoke of getting hit/exp/dodge cap. How mach is dodge cap? Is it worth for normals to have ton of gems with you and just gem according to the fight?

[Junak]

Crit is something I would put on primary, extra rage is always key

[Raugnaut]

Personally, I would put agility over stamina at this point. But then I'm disinclined to do the match to back up my preference. However health pools seem to be fine without seeking out stamina and more agility means more dodge and more rage.

While agility gives both some dodge and some rage, because of the way stat wieghts are on gems, you can get a ton more rage from gemming expertise/hit/crit, even haste then gemming agility, and a ton more dodge from gemming straight dodge.

[Embermoon]

On the subject of trinkets, which ones are you guys preferring, for rage gen? The first one that comes to my mind, is the crit trink off of dark master gandling.