Do you include 10 man raids in the World First race?

[Deleted]

No lol. I usually would, but having done both 10 and 25 this tier, 10man is a complete joke compared to 25.

You've cleared 6/6HC on both 10 and 25 man? Impressive. JK only 1/6hc.

[Amsden]

Both are world first. They are 2 different things. Not going into which is harder because it doesn't matter. They way MMOC is doing it is the right way, recognising the WF 10 and WF 25.

[deadman1]

the way i see it if a boss dies for the first time in the world it is a world first no matter the size of the raid. So yes i do include 10man in the world first race.

In WotLK they were actually different difficulties, so noone did then, because it was literally half a tier easier.

In cata they changed it to simply be different party sizes but almost the same thing. The only people who think 10 man is a less acomplishment thant 25 are people who are either stuck in their ways or angry that 10 mans have an easier time putting a group together and that 25 mans have to struggle keeping 25 sane people on the same schedule.

---------- Post added 2012-10-14 at 03:55 AM ----------

Both are world first. They are 2 different things. Not going into which is harder because it doesn't matter. They way MMOC is doing it is the right way, recognising the WF 10 and WF 25.

If you are saying they are different accomplishments then you are saying that one is better and one is less, you cannot have separate but equal it just doesn't work that way.

[Deleted]

ofc

now that best guild has switched it's all about 10man, 25man means nothing now.

[adelerollsinthedeep]

If you are saying they are different accomplishments then you are saying that one is better and one is less, you cannot have separate but equal it just doesn't work that way.

no its like saying you cant compare glad in 3v3 to glad in 5v5. both are their own accomplishments but you can't say objectively which is the more skilled team compared to each other, you can only say "team A is the best at 3's" and "team B is the best at 5's" if they both got rank 1 but you can not say which team is more skilled at arena in general, A or B.

[Santti]

This is how I see it:

World first.
World first 10man.
World first 25man.

In case of Paragon, they got the first 2.

[Shamanberry]

I see it as two different world first races.

There's a guild that will get world first in 10 man, and a guild that will get world first in 25 man.

Which one of those is achieved before the other is irrelevant. It'd be like if the men's and women's 100m were happening at the same time on different tracks, and trying to figure out who won the race by asking who finished first on either track. It doesn't make sense. You can argue all you want that one is "better" than the other, but the bottom line is that they're not the same race.

[Smoopie]

If 10 man is much easier than 25 man, how come alot of 25 man has cleared it HC while not so many 10 mans have?

Because most players challenge themselves to beating content on 25 not 10..now I'm not saying if they raided ten they would have cleared anything faster, I'm just saying a majority of the best guilds in wow raid 25. And if you read paragons website they wish they could still raid 25s! They would prefer it but can't pull it off at this time

[Dominian]

I like how the no option is extremely bias

[Krunkus]

What a ridiculous question.

As a raider of both 10 and 25 man raid groups - and bearing in mind I enjoy 25 man raiding a lot more, for different reasons than difficulty - I think that 10 man raiding is significantly harder.

The only things, in my opinion, which are harder in 25 man raiding are organisation and coordination.

At the release of Cataclysm Blizzard came forth and said they were going to try tune 10 and 25 man raids the same in difficulty. At the time there were a lot of issues and some fights (Heroic Halfus Wyrmbreaker) for example were MUCH harder on 10 man, anyone who disagrees with this is a completely ignorant fool, and some fights were a lot harder on 25 man. Although, since then Blizzard have become better and better at tuning these to be equal in difficulty. Of course there are going to be some differences in certain fights, different mechanics are always going to challenge different raid sizes, but on the whole, Blizzard has done a pretty good job.

Now.

If ONE person fucks up on a certain fight in 10 man, it can be catastrophic. It can be disastrous. In my guild we have 1 Druid and no Death Knights or Warlocks. Our Druid is our healer and should he die, we call a wipe immediately. There is no way we can bring him up, and if the fight is a 2 heal encounter, we have no chance. SPIRIT KINGS comes to mind here - plenty of chances for people to die.

If ONE person can't hold his own on DPS, we might not make the enrage. If you have a group of decent DPS with one person lacking behind, high DPS fights become REALLY difficult. Fights like ELEGON and GARA'JAL come to mind here - reasonably tight on DPS.

If ONE person can't make it and you have to pug a player, group synergy and raid competency can be significantly lowered. STONE GUARDS and WILL OF THE EMPEROR come to mind here - jasper chains and add control are horrible with pugs running around and failing.

If anything, 10 man raiding is harder. If someone has a rebuttal which isn't "no u r stupid 25 mans harder if ur 10 man ur noob" then please post a reply to me, I would be really interested in hearing people's opinions on why 25 man is considered so much harder? Or is everyone still stuck in WotLK?

[SteakAndAlePie]

While I respect 25 mans it's still just a mode you chose to finish a raid. It might be harder due to management or recruitment issues, but it is still the same raid, and if you say on 25 mans are valid because they are harder... why stop there? You can chose a mode that is even more unforgiving, like a druid only raid or something.

[Deleted]

If ONE person fucks up on a certain fight in 10 man, it can be catastrophic.

In any content that actually matters, one person fucking up is catastrophic. It's much, much harder to get 25 people not to fuck up than 10.

[Krunkus]

In any content that actually matters, one person fucking up is catastrophic.

I've been in 25 man encounters where 6-8 people have died. Most got battle ressed and the others weren't important enough to impact greatly on the fight.

[Ryme]

In any content that actually matters, one person fucking up is catastrophic. It's much, much harder to get 25 people not to fuck up than 10.

To play Devil's Advocate, nearly every (or maybe even all of them) world first video I've watched has at least one person dying in it.

[Volitar]

Nope. I still don't feel like 10man raiding is 'real' raiding. regardless of difficulty 25man raids are the only ones that matter in my eyes.

[Deleted]

I would say yes it's a world's first, If guild A(10) kills the boss first then guild B(25) kills the boss second I don't see how guild B killed it first ^.-

Simple logic.

i agree with this person.

[Deleted]

I've been in 25 man encounters where 6-8 people have died. Most got battle ressed and the others weren't important enough to impact greatly on the fight.

Then the content did not matter for those 16-17 people that stayed alive all the way and were able to pull the other people weight...
As such Zeophor is right.

I don't know how hard it is to conceive, but for those that survived, the content that would matter would have a difficulty that would require all of the group to stay alive and perform at a level similar to theirs, or wipe.

A typical 25 man group, is the group with the large skill variance (as oposed to a 10 man).
-A portion of the group doing great
-A portion doing "oki"
-And finally a portion doing bad job, and the only reason for being there is to complete the number of people required, or personal friendships.

But with a group like that, the content defeated matters only to the people of the last category and partially to the people of the intermediate category. The people of the first category hate themselves for being there, and hate the people of the third category for dragging them down.

You get that now? In 10 mans more than 25s (that one is being reduced, due to the fact that 99% of the "typical 25s" being dead, while the casual/bad 10s are thriving) you have a chance to get a challenge for you personally, a challenge for your skill and not for the worse/average player's skill, in your previous 25.
But at the same time, 10 mans are much easier to be formed entirely with people from the first category only (those that do great).
I would just suggest to check what is your rank now in 10...and then take your ranks in 25 before cataclysm multiply them by 2,5 and see what you get. Is the number bigger than your 10 man? That means that your group was worse and you shouldnt combare it. The above relation is true the further you are from top. Cause the closer you re at top 10 in the world, those differences are getting more and more reduced. The skill of the entire team is much higher, and the variance between the best and worse player neglidgible.

To give you an idea of what i am talking about, we were ranked 9900ish in ICC 25 with 9/12 heroic progress.
At the same time we were ranked 14700ish at 10 with higher skill ofc (since it was with people amongst the best of the 25 team) with 11/12 heroic and last kill happening 2 months before last kill happened in 25. I dare say that we would kill lich king heroic 10, if we didnt put as priority to progress 25 exclusively in the end and practically stop 10.

So if you put things down.
Either our rank would have been much better in the 25 (with skill per person similar to 10 man group)
Or our rank would have been much lower in 10 (with skill per person similar to our 25)

Those experiences, learned us not to confuse the 2, and also learned me the basic principal. That they are not the same and they should not be treated as such.
For example if you were a 2000 in the world 25, during ICC, then you would be aproximately a 5000 rank, 10 man.
But if you re a 2000 10 man it is aproximately the experience you get in a top 800 25 man, in terms of the level of coordination and perfection you have achieved.
It is simply a matter of rough numbers.

Good 25s are hard to create. But once you re in a one, and your pc doesnt make you curse in every aoe spell spam, the game experience you re getting is in a different level, in every aspect.
On the other hand, good 10 man is easier to happen, and that is a fair trade off, you settle for a lesser experience at a higher level of challenge.

Now should they both exist?
Yep in a system with different content
Yep in a system with shared content, but with larger group being offered with incentives for people to go for it.
No in a system like the "cataclysmic raiding model".
In such a model, a larger size has only cosmetic reason to exist unless if you belong in the top 2% of progress group, or top 5% of the raiding playerbase.

And since there is no way to take what happened back, the next logical step is the one size model. Simple as that.

[Deleted]

Look at how many 25man guilds have killed the first 2 bosses compared to 10man guilds and keep in mind that there are a massive amount of 10man guilds out there compared to 25man.

Appears to me that there is a larger portion of the 25man population able to kill 2/6 already compared to 10man which probably indicates that 10man is harder mechanically or tuned harder compared to 25man.

This is pretty true for the current tier so far, as it stands with the data we have available to use it seems 10man is harder than 25man so if anything getting 6/6 10 man hc is more of a achievement than 6/6 25man. But then ive always found 25man easier than 10man, 25man is much more forgiving to mistakes than 10man(i know that comment is going to get alot of nerd rage thrown at it but its true)

[Seriss]

I've always regarded them as separate from each other, even though Blizzard still won't separate realm-firsts.

A world-first in 10-man is a world-first 10-man. A world-first 25-man is a world-first 25-man.

That's all there is to it.

[BloodchargedWoW]

Rather amusing seeing some of these people saying yes they include 10 man raids, however before when Paragon was a 25 man Raid Guild they said 10 mans weren't included lol. Hypocrisy GOGO111!!!!!