Do you include 10 man raids in the World First race?

[Raugnaut]

10 man, and 25 man are, according to blizzard, equally balanced in terms of difficulty (I.E bosses on 10 man should be roughly equal to bosses in 25 man in terms of time taken, mechanics, ect, per person)

10 man leads to greater responsibilty on the single player- A single dps/healer slacking in 10 man can be felt significantly greater then a single dps/healer slacking in 25 man. In addition, on cutting-edge fights, the death of a single player in 10 man can be the difference between a wipe and a kill- 25 man, the death of a single player can be unfelt, besides the fact that the boss was killed 5 seconds later (Which, when beating enrage timers, can make a ton of difference)

25 man leads to greater cooridination required- 15 more players requires greater coordination, more consumables per fight, ect. In 10 mans, the individuals skill as an individual matters- in 25 mans, the skill of a group matters more.

Because of that, I believe 10 mans and 25 mans to be of equal difficulty in the fight itself. Outside of the fight, 25 mans require significantly more coordination.

Also, its DREAM Paragon. They would be world first even if they raided 2 hours, 1 night, because they are a cut above everyone else.

[Eggowaffles]

Completely depends on the fight, for example Warmaster was way harder on 10m in DS. But this tier certainly seems easier on 10m - especially Will.

Will of the emperor is an absolute joke on 10 man.

[Aqua]

Of course it's first. It's first. I still believe 25man first also deserves a special mention but if a 10man is first than it's first.

Same if it was the other way around, for the last time the two raid sizes are NOT comparable. Anyone arguing over it is late to the tea party.

[Deleted]

No? I find 10 man just as hard as 25.

same here.

[Uselessrouge]

That's because the last 25ms left mostly consist of really good players.

of course

if 10 raid is first = LOL 10m raid to easy
if 25 raid is first = lol poeple so skilled

/facepalm

Imo , both have problemes 10 and 25p raids , have raided both


but world first will allways be world first no matter with how many poeple even if he they do it with 15 or 7 ... after that its up to you what lies makes you sleep better ^^

[Tharkkun]

World first 10 man yes.You can't compare them, just a matter of time they will be separated in the achievements too.
On top of that, 25m is ofcourse the last real raidsize left in WoW, more players, more personal skill involved, more players working together.

No. When Blizzard made the difficulty similar on bosses and loot tables the same they also eliminated the distinction between 10 and 25 man achievements. They have no reason to change it just because some people can't accept that each fight has a chance to be harder and it evens out in the end.

---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 10:32 PM ----------

The fact that the community is split over this argument, is a big failure on Blizzard's part.

Either separate the achievements, balance the 10vs25 difficulty discrepancy, merge into 15-mans, separate lockouts again, something. Do something, Blizzard!

There's no reason to. Blizzard took their stance 3 years ago but the community still refuses to accept it.

[adelerollsinthedeep]

no

the fight is not identical so you can't consider it a competition between 10 and 25, theres a 10 race and a 25 race and the 10 man race is pretty much paragon vs a bunch of casual guilds

[MAGAmobile]

You people care more about logistics rather then the actual content it seems. Whoever kills it first deserves credit for it, regardless of raid size. The tuning is similar to account for raid size differences, but the instant you start to try and take that and compare it to # of people and coordination, it becomes laughable. Of course 25 man will be more difficult to MANAGE due to sheer numbers, but that doesn't mean responsibility is lower in 10 man. Whoever has the best raid, synergy, and strategy is going to get first. The raid size is irrelevant barring bugs.

[Dreyen]

different formats are different.. 10man and 25man should be separate, i dont feel like there is a "true" raid format.

[Evil Inside]

On a different tier to 25man yes, you cant really lump 10m and 25m in the same category.

[adelerollsinthedeep]

the problem with 10 man guilds is that they make their choice and then get mad when not everyone supports them

you want to raid 10 thats your business just be willing to deal with the consequences. you're not going to get respect from hc 25 players and if you arent ok with that then don't raid 10 man.

play the game for yourselves not for others approval

[Deleted]

10 man leads to greater responsibilty on the single player-

So wrong here.... One guy who can't imagine one second that loosing one guy in 25 mans race = garanteed wipe.

Who cares about responsability when the race is over when the boring farming begins... ? And yeah the thread is about world first... so no casuals PoV authorized. 10 mans sucks.

[Damerflinn]

A long time ago I posted a thread similar to this. And it turned out that the majority of players actually believe that 10 man is harder in terms of skill and team comp.

The ONLY thing that is harder about 25 man is getting those 25 people together, and to listen. That doesn't dictate skill playing the game it dictates the raid leaders, and the team members ability to play together and listen.

So I certainly believe that 10 man matters. And honestly I don't think 25 man really shows much, it's easier. You get a much better comp out of it, you can have all the buffs, you can have a much more even mix of melee and ranged. You get more battle rez's. So in reality the question isn't if they should be included, but why they aren't the only thing that matters.

When a guild like Paragon goes to 10 man, it should tell you something.

[vindicatorx]

It has been 25 mans that are watched for World first no one has even given a shit about 10 mans until now. So, no I don't consider them in the World First Race

[Alcomo]

Of course they are the same when it comes to world first! The only difficulty difference between 10 and 25 is the time it takes to assemble 25 no moronic people, but that is no where near enough reason to consider 25 above 10 man. Both have the same mechanics, both require you to stay out of the same crap, there is no difference between the two anymore. Anyone who thinks differently just can't stop living in the past of this game when 25 mans actually WERE different.

[Lora]

The first time the boss dies is the world first. Size of the raid doesn't matter.

[La]

some fights have had some fights harder on 10 than 25, some fights have had some fights on 25 harder than 10, throughout the expansions and raids. i'm sure they're both equally tuned, or as best to, and until there's proof that one is harder than the other, they're both equal.

the *only* reason I would choose to say I don't count 10 mans over 25s is competitive raiding really hyped up in TBC, where 25 mans were what it was about.

[RollTide]

No. As far as I am concerned, the competitive race is a 25m thing.

I think this poll is interesting though. Up through DS I always got the vibe most people considered the world first race to only "count" in 25m. But Paragon drops to 10 and suddenly 10s are legit? Coincidence that I am looking too far into or more?

[Nerraw]

World first is a world first, done.

[Zik3l]

So this was always destined to be a 10vs25 thread. I'm pretty sick of hearing it to be honest. 10vs25 will always have points against each other. 10 will find X boss hard whilst 25 will find it easy. 25 will find Y boss hard when 10 will find it easy.

Look at dragonsoul.
Ultraxion - on 10man freakin easy! rotate a few people no worries. 25 rotate entire groups of people? ouch!
Warmaster Blackhorn - 10man soaking all those attacks on the ship with 2 people so you don't get gibbed? Not enough people! second phase bugger all raid cooldowns to roll through each shout! 25man people everywhere, easy to soak, lots of raid CDs to roll through 2nd phase.

Was DS harder on 10vs25? No, not really. They each had their pain in the arse fights, but it was pretty freaking equal.

I'm fairly sure this pattern will continue.