1. #4321
    Quote Originally Posted by KyrtF View Post
    Yes...and in CIGs PTW system, that something is in game money which you use to buy thing like ships and weapons.

    Does it matter that this is indirect? Nope. But that is the reality. You spend money to get in game currency and you can then spend that currency on equipment which boosts your performance.

    Put simply...compare to players who put the dame amount of time into the game. One buys currency and uses it to buy and equip ships. The other does not.

    At the end of whatever time frame you want...who will have the better ship?

    Pay to Win in action.





    Yes...a sub needs some sort of benefit to justify.

    If those benefits have an impact on gameplay, even indirectly, you have Pay To Win.
    If they don't, well...you may as well just open up a store for microtransactions.

    CIG would have been far better either keeping quiet or imposing a subscription fee to cover running costs and development on everyone.



    You get a bunch of friends who pool their bought in game currency and buy and crew a ship. You think that makes them less effective? Ever play a MMO? There are entire guilds of 10s or 100s of players who do this type of thing.




    You've not done much PvP have you?



    Such as by using the ingame cash you bought with real life money to ensure your "slow" ship is fast enough to catch the "fast" ships of those who didn't pay to upgrade?



    Are you trying to prove the game is or isn't pay to win when you bring this up?



    Will your weapons be disabled in high security space?

    Besides...it isn't just PvP. Earning ships is one of the goals of games like this. How many players have them? Paying money means you get an advantage over those who don't....not just in combat but also trade, mining and so on. How is that not PTW?
    You don't have a clue at all, currently all you can buy is stock ships and weapons and at launch you won't even be able to do that, there is a limit on ingame currency you can buy and its not much, there will be loads of ways to earn more than enough credits ingame, all real money in doing is saving you time so you can focus on other things. You can currently buy 25k uec each day and only hold 150k currently, the game has to make money from as many avenues as possible but still its not pay to win, you also don't even have a clue how the game will play properly at launch, i can even see them putting in a reputation system so you couldnt even use the ship until the appropriate lvl and the insurance spawn timers on these massive ships may even be days before you can spawn another.

    If your flying a large ship your going to be a large target for players to group up and destroy, your acting like these ships will be indestructable when in reality smaller ships will be able to out manouver the turrets and do lots of damage or even destroy your massive ship even with it fully manned. These large ships have many blindspots you can take full advatage of.

    And who the hell cares anyway if people have spent loads of money for nice ships, the whole game is not centered around every man for themselves pvp, there will be many places you can safely pve to your hearts content, and if you do encounter people wanting to blow you up you can just make a run for it, we will have to see when the games in a more complete state to know for sure the gameplay aspects in the PU.

    Proper pirate gameplay will have an essential need to either get a bribe from that player not to board or destroy them if you have managed to disable them or to board and steal the cargo or even steal the whole ship itself, there will be little to no rewards for just blowing random ships up for no reason. Logically there is more reason to keep them alive so they can fill up the cargo hold again and you can try steal even more cargo.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2017-08-10 at 10:49 PM.
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  2. #4322
    Quote Originally Posted by Tierbook View Post
    The Sub reddit seems to be buzzing about in game streaming, that is sitting in your ship watching a live stream of other people exploring areas via a camera on the suits.
    Just seems like something that they should worry about after the game is out and successful to me...
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  3. #4323
    Bloodsail Admiral Odeezee's Avatar
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    PTW in a game like SC is a conversation that should be had in context. there is no "WINNING" in the traditional sense of winning; getting the biggest ship =/= you win and seeing as the game has many roles, some non-combat in nature how would you characterize winning then if you are an explorer? how does having more money = you get more places to explore? what about if you are a medic? or a bounty hunter? or an engineer? a turret gunner? a commercial space pilot? having the biggest most decked out fighter spaceship won't help you with cargo hauling. and if people try and argue "well if you are cargo hauling then you could just get the biggest cargo hauler and get the most moneiesssss", well you are going to need a lot of friends or have to pay for crew members, then there are larger fuel costs, larger fighter escort costs, greater maintenance overhead, etc associated with larger vessels, so when exactly does the "winning" begin?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Post View Post
    Just seems like something that they should worry about after the game is out and successful to me...
    why? they have over 400 on staff, why not tackle what you can tackle when you can? also this tech is basically the main way that players will interact with the game mechanics such as professions, communication, missions, shopping, customization, etc so building it now helps them develop content with that in mind. this is not your typical MMO and as such they are doing things never before done in an MMO most of their work is R&D and if after refining their pipelines they deem this to be the best course of action, crowd-funding affords them then room to test it out.
    Last edited by Odeezee; 2017-08-11 at 04:06 AM.
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  4. #4324
    Pandaren Monk masterhorus8's Avatar
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    https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen...d_and_pay2win/

    Take it as you will. It may be old, but not much of the info has changed (if any).
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  5. #4325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Can be as big or small as it wants. Pay to win is pay to win at the end of the day.

    Right now I'd say it's pay to win. To soften the blow I guess pay to heavily advance.
    Ehhh once it releases it will only have the currency for sale not actual ships. If we are to say that the game is pay to win at that point then we'd have to say that World of Warcraft is Pay-to-win thanks to being able to purchase game time and then sell it for in game gold.
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  6. #4326
    Quote Originally Posted by Odeezee View Post
    why? they have over 400 on staff, why not tackle what you can tackle when you can?
    So they can not delay the game another 3 years.
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  7. #4327
    Pandaren Monk masterhorus8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Can be as big or small as it wants. Pay to win is pay to win at the end of the day.

    Right now I'd say it's pay to win. To soften the blow I guess pay to heavily advance.
    And in addition to what Tierbook said, the $ -> UEC cap will supposedly be low enough to prevent people from really getting too much, such as buying a "good" ship right off the bat. It's supposed to be in place to let people that can't play keep up with the people that do. But IIRC, another stipulation of the cap will keep people from being able to pay for UEC AND play a lot. Something like, the less you play, the more you can buy, but you can't go over X amount.
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  8. #4328
    Quote Originally Posted by masterhorus8 View Post
    But IIRC, another stipulation of the cap will keep people from being able to pay for UEC AND play a lot. Something like, the less you play, the more you can buy, but you can't go over X amount.
    I...can't see that at all. That absolutely guts their ability to monetize whales, who are more likely than not to be heavy players vs. infrequent players.

  9. #4329
    Pandaren Monk masterhorus8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I...can't see that at all. That absolutely guts their ability to monetize whales, who are more likely than not to be heavy players vs. infrequent players.
    Yeah, I agree with that. I'll do some digging around to see if I can find the video/post that mentioned it again.

    EDIT: To be fair though, just a consistent source of income can do wonders, even if they can't milk the whales. So as long as people can put more money in to do less effort, they likely will.
    Last edited by masterhorus8; 2017-08-11 at 01:35 AM.
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  10. #4330
    Quote Originally Posted by masterhorus8 View Post
    Yeah, I agree with that. I'll do some digging around to see if I can find the video/post that mentioned it again.
    I'm very intrigued, so please post if you find it. I mean it's a laudable goal in a sense, but it's not going to be received well (similar to how FFXIV got raked over the coals initially for their plans to lower XP gains the longer you played in an attempt to keep things "fair" for high vs. low time players) and in this instance it runs contrary to all existing monetization in games.

    Though it's worth noting that even if they do have plans to do that, they're not set in stone. As we've already seen, a ton changes between what was initially announced and what actually happens : P

  11. #4331
    Pandaren Monk masterhorus8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I'm very intrigued, so please post if you find it. I mean it's a laudable goal in a sense, but it's not going to be received well (similar to how FFXIV got raked over the coals initially for their plans to lower XP gains the longer you played in an attempt to keep things "fair" for high vs. low time players) and in this instance it runs contrary to all existing monetization in games.

    Though it's worth noting that even if they do have plans to do that, they're not set in stone. As we've already seen, a ton changes between what was initially announced and what actually happens : P
    I think what I've read/said may just be another interpretation of the following statement:
    In order to regulate the economy, the Central Core Bank has imposed restrictions on acquiring and stockpiling UEC. Each account can obtain a maximum of 25,000 UEC per 24 hour period, and can hold a maximum of 150,000 UEC on account in your ledger at any time. Buying items with UEC does reduce your ledger balance, and does not count towards the maximum UEC cap. These restrictions may be modified at the order of the CCB in the future when additional gameplay options become available.
    Source
    It is listed under a different section from purchasing and says "obtain" and not "purchase".

    But as you said, nothing is set in stone, especially with all of this information being rather old.

    Will continue to dig soon™ (searching through videos suuuuuuucks).

    PS: If it does matter at all, the UEC:$ is supposed to change on release as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Well, I couldn't find a source (was very likely an older video from CR saying stuff), but I think he was going over what I quoted above.

    Side note: While digging for stuff, I ran across this thread which brings up a very valid response regarding p2w:
    There's one point I haven't seen mentioned yet and that is availability of goods, components or ships within the game being locked behind a kind of rep grind or other wall you can't just get passed with cold hard cash. It could very well be that having money doesn't immediately give you access to the "best" ships or components. It might be you still need to find that vendor somewhere, gain his/his factions trust through completing a series of missions and then be allowed to purchase.

    A UEC sale may then just be a minor convenience... something you use because you lack that little bit of cash to repair or restock your ship, pay that NPC's salary or get that extra piece of hangar flair
    I completely forgot about the rep requirements for some stuff.
    Last edited by masterhorus8; 2017-08-11 at 02:11 AM.
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  12. #4332
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    You don't have a clue at all, currently all you can buy is stock ships and weapons and at launch you won't even be able to do that, there is a limit on ingame currency you can buy and its not much, there will be loads of ways to earn more than enough credits ingame, all real money in doing is saving you time so you can focus on other things.
    You don't get it.

    If CIG allows you to buy money then it literally doesn't matter about whether you can buy the ships or weapons or whatever directly. All they are doing is adding a step in the process.

    Instead of using real life money to buy ships, you can use real life money to buy in game currency and then use THAT to buy ships. End result is pay to win.

    You can currently buy 25k uec each day and only hold 150k currently, the game has to make money from as many avenues as possible but still its not pay to win, you also don't even have a clue how the game will play properly at launch, i can even see them putting in a reputation system so you couldnt even use the ship until the appropriate lvl and the insurance spawn timers on these massive ships may even be days before you can spawn another.
    None of which precludes pay to win. All I have to do is look at how some people treat such systems on other games to see how this can be abused. There are people out there who buy enough accounts and subscriptions on WoW for example to run their own raid. Multiboxers. There are people in other games who have several accounts so they have have five or ten or twenty feeding into one main.

    You think account limits are going to be an issue? Whats going to stop people setting up 20 accounts...or 40 or 50...and buying the max currency they can only to funnel it to their main? SC is supposed to have a player driven economy so they have to allow player to player transfers. And even if they didn't, SC allows for guilds.

    If your flying a large ship your going to be a large target for players to group up and destroy, your acting like these ships will be indestructable when in reality smaller ships will be able to out manouver the turrets and do lots of damage or even destroy your massive ship even with it fully manned. These large ships have many blindspots you can take full advatage of.
    The capability of being destroyed does not preclude a Pay To Win scenario. In this case, the ability to buy in game currency and so improve ones ship and equipment results in a player who does spend money having a material advantage over one who does not.

    That is Pay To Win. A player who spends Real Life money will end up with a ship that is better at trading...at mining...at fighting...or whatever...than the player who does not. In a game with a PvP element, as well as player interactions, that gives such players a significant boost over and above players who don't spend real life money.

    And who the hell cares anyway if people have spent loads of money for nice ships, the whole game is not centered around every man for themselves pvp, there will be many places you can safely pve to your hearts content, and if you do encounter people wanting to blow you up you can just make a run for it, we will have to see when the games in a more complete state to know for sure the gameplay aspects in the PU.
    If it were a pure PvE game? Noone would really care. Well...mostly. If you were able to...as an example...win an in game race because real life money allowed you to buy or equip a better ship, there'd be issues. How would you feel knowing you lost an ingame contest and prize because someone bought a better ship? As SC will be a game with a strong degree of player interaction...including but not limited to PvP...there is an issue.

    Proper pirate gameplay will have an essential need to either get a bribe from that player not to board or destroy them if you have managed to disable them or to board and steal the cargo or even steal the whole ship itself, there will be little to no rewards for just blowing random ships up for no reason
    Since when has that stopped people? If you seriously believe there won't be griefers in game going after newbies or people who will pay to win, then you haven't been playing too many games recently. People will do so for no rewards and just do it for the thrill of doing it.
    Last edited by KyrtF; 2017-08-11 at 08:55 PM.

  13. #4333
    Bloodsail Admiral Odeezee's Avatar
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    really great AtV today and the attention to detail is great, for those looking for a very if not the most immersive gaming experience to date, would recommend!



    Quote Originally Posted by Post View Post
    So they can not delay the game another 3 years.
    how are those things mutually exclusive? you can work on added UI stuff without delaying the game. O.o
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  14. #4334
    Pandaren Monk masterhorus8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odeezee View Post
    how are those things mutually exclusive? you can work on added UI stuff without delaying the game. O.o
    And they can delay it another 3 years without working on the feature. :P
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  15. #4335
    Quote Originally Posted by Odeezee View Post
    how are those things mutually exclusive? you can work on added UI stuff without delaying the game. O.o
    Having streaming INSIDE your game through other people doesn't seem like "UI stuff" to me.
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  16. #4336
    Titan Tierbook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Post View Post
    Having streaming INSIDE your game through other people doesn't seem like "UI stuff" to me.
    Yup..... it makes gambling on races in game much easier since you can watch the race live instead of having to switch back and forth from someone that might be streaming it on Twitch and the bookies.
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  17. #4337
    Quote Originally Posted by Tierbook View Post
    The Sub reddit seems to be buzzing about in game streaming, that is sitting in your ship watching a live stream of other people exploring areas via a camera on the suits.
    In-game streaming sounds exactly like the sort of pointless feature I expect from a project with such bloat. It sounds cool but will be mostly abandoned because 1) running a game this resource intensive just to stream is a bit overkill methinks and 2) who the fuck is going to watch some dude go around mining rocks.

    I dunno, maybe it will take off and I'll have to eat my words, but with how many problems their titles seems to have, focusing on other areas in production would seem wiser to me.

  18. #4338
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    In-game streaming sounds exactly like the sort of pointless feature I expect from a project with such bloat. It sounds cool but will be mostly abandoned because 1) running a game this resource intensive just to stream is a bit overkill methinks and 2) who the fuck is going to watch some dude go around mining rocks.

    I dunno, maybe it will take off and I'll have to eat my words, but with how many problems their titles seems to have, focusing on other areas in production would seem wiser to me.
    Yeah, it sounds very much like the kind of thing that gets added post-launch as a neat feature, rather than something that's a productive use of developer time while they've still got tons of work to do on major milestones leading up to launch.

  19. #4339
    Honestly, I don't think its even that much of an undertaking as compared to regular streaming. Depends on if the view strips out the HUD or not, etc. It would be no different than having the stream open on a 2nd monitor to the side in Twitch. Its just another way to have immersion. Tune in while you fly to a spot, or while mining (assuming not all mining involves imminent gas explosions that require constant attention) or while waiting for the dock to unload your cargo, etc.

  20. #4340
    Quote Originally Posted by masterhorus8 View Post
    I completely forgot about the rep requirements for some stuff.
    I hadn't. Trouble is that - yet again - it seems to contradict the rationale provided by CIG, namely the "catch up" mechanism for those who don't play that often.

    CIG would be better served - IMO - by simply avoiding this whole situation and simply stating that there will be a compulsory subscription, with cosmetic items available for sale. That way they don't need to worry about Pay To Win scenarios.

    As for worrying about those who can't play too often....keep them in the "safe" systems until they are equipped enough o go deal with the big boys. The worry here is PvP as there is no mechanism to keep the old timers with all the neat toys away from safe systems. If CIG want to, they could simply manipulate the PvP system so you only get placed into instances against players or groups with a similar ship and relax that restriction in the less safe systems.

    I do not think the "optional subscription" system as described is, in any way, desirable. Players who can't play that often, simply can't play that often. They can either act as crew for those who can and do, or they simply take longer to build up their ship and skills.

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