[Megathread] Star Citizen

[Gorsameth]

Why would they keep you from refunding? The sooner disgruntled backers are out of the project the better for CIG and the community. The less people with multiple ship's out of the game the better for everyone.

You were never part of the evocati and you never will be

I didn't praised nothing. you must be mistaking me with someone else.

And yes 60+ people test did go well in the Evocati. 60 people + 60 ship's btw.

Doesn't matter who buy's packages, it's money in CIG pocket either way.

Thanks for supporting the making of space sims anyway.

Why would they want to limit refunds? Because its their income and they need the money to develop the game?
Because if enough people do it they lose money they already spend and go into debt?(not saying its the case but its a possibility if there is a big rush)

[KyrtF]

Why would they keep you from refunding?

Did you keep a straight face while you typed this question?

These refunds are from CIGs revenue stream. Its obvious why they wouldn't want to give the money back. Unfortunately for them, esoecially in the EU, they have to as the promised product hasn't been released.

What you need to realise is that for every backer we know gets a refund, there are a lot more we likely don't know about. At this stage, CIG have likely lost several million dollars to refunds so of course they are going to do everything they can to discourage them.

The sooner disgruntled backers are out of the project the better for CIG and the community

That doesn't mean CIG doesn't want their money.

You were never part of the evocati and you never will be

Just because he is saying bad things about SC doesn't mean he wasn't Evocati. Testers are SUPPOSED to say bad things. And that yoy seem to think he can't be Evocati because he is being critical really says a lot.

Testers NEED to be critical. They need to point out the flaws.


I didn't praised nothing. you must be mistaking me with someone else.

And yes 60+ people test did go well in the Evocati. 60 people + 60 ship's btw.

oesn't matter who buy's packages, it's money in CIG pocket either way.

Until it is refunded.

[MrAnderson]

Why would they want to limit refunds? Because its their income and they need the money to develop the game?
Because if enough people do it they lose money they already spend and go into debt?(not saying its the case but its a possibility if there is a big rush)

Refunds are a drop in a ocean of funding. What cig does is make sure the refundee accounts are not involved in grey and black market scams.

The few clueless folks that are still running with the long troll of "Imminent Financial Collapse" started back in 2015 by a delusional old timer with a lot o free time are mere sockpuppets or other haters going along with the trolling.

"Next year is the year that will make or break Star Citizen"
Since 2014... Yeah right...

- - - Updated - - -

At this stage, CIG have likely lost several million dollars to refunds.

Did you keep a straight face while you typed this?
Care to share some evidence of such?
LoL talk about being delusional...
Guess you will be another disapointed soul this anniversary sale.

Maybe try asking Santa for CIG collapse hehe.

Don't forget the milk & cookies

[Rennadrel]

Why would they want to limit refunds? Because its their income and they need the money to develop the game?
Because if enough people do it they lose money they already spend and go into debt?(not saying its the case but its a possibility if there is a big rush)

But the more money they have, the more interest compounds on what isn't spent on dev time.

[KyrtF]

Refunds are a drop in a ocean of funding. What cig does is make sure the refundee accounts are not involved in grey and black market scams.

What they are doing is delaying legitimate refunds and putting up barriers with no legitimate justification. Telling people they are not entitled to a refund is NOT checking they are involved in some sort òf scam. It's at best a ploy to delay them and at worst intended to put up so many barriers that the person simply gives up.

The few clueless folks that are still running with the long troll of "Imminent Financial Collapse" started back in 2015 by a delusional old timer with a lot o free time are mere sockpuppets or other haters going along with the trolling.

Am I expecting an "imminent" collapse? No. But unless CIG are lying about their financial state in their reports, or have managed to hide an income stream, they are spending a lot more money than they are raising.

That inevitably does lead to financial collapse. Maybe not imminently, but within the next few years. That CIG still have huge marketing, hosting and publication costs to pay from their dwindling reserve should send up warning flares, never mind that every assurance CIG can finish the game has come from a man who has consistently and massively underestimated the time, money and manpower needed to meet his companies milestones, a man who has lied to the backers, a man who is recklessly driving up costs and adding needless delays

"Next year is the year that will make or break Star Citizen"
Since 2014... Yeah right...

Income is down by a third.
Interest is shrinking
The ship sales could have been more successful
3.0 still isn't out....and it's a year late with about a tenth of the promised content.
Costs have risen
And more and more people seem to be seeking refunds
The GC17 demo was a shambles and the CC17 demo showed stuff that CR admitted wasn't going to be in game.

What makes you think SC isn't "broken" already?

Did you keep a straight face while you typed this?

Yes. Very much so. Very few people proclaim on the Internet that they got a refund for anything. Why do you think Star Citizen is any different?

For every person you see posting "I got a refund!!" there's going to be a hundred who got one without shouting about it. The backer numbers and amount raised figures aren't adjusted for refunds.

Guess you will be another disapointed soul this anniversary sale.)

Why? I'm not wishing for CIGs collapse. But I'm also not a rabid fanboi or paid shill.

CIG and SC has many obvious problems. The likelihood that they are eating through their reserve and quickly running out of money is only one of them.

CIG could collapse tomorrow...but odds are they'll last long enough to deliver some sort of game.

I just don't think it'll be the game you think it'll be.

[Virgo]

What I personally cannot understand and it really puzzles me, is Majestic12 and people like him I bought a ship on this game I spent 250 dollars I think? I can't even remember nor can I remember last time I logged on there..But it does not change the fact that I put my $ on hope that the game does come out and does not fail if it does OH well its 250$ but what I cannot understand I mean this I truly can't get my head around it is this, Majestic12 why do you continue to come here in this thread page after page trying so hard to disapprove the game or its failure and or completion? Majestic12 you got a refund? You made this clear you clearly didn't like something about this game in making so why do you still come here and try to convince people who do not feel like you that its bad bad bad? These people are perfectly able to do this by themselves, yet I cannot fathom why you come in this thread day after day minute after minute and continue to disagree with anybody who supports this game AFTER you have gotten a refund? Most normal people would have walked away and just carried on with other games...yet You keep coming here its as if you love to hate the game...you Could use your time in a much better way instead on hating on a game you apparently have a refund on...i Wont go in last 50 pages about your blatant contradictions about your own statements no point really but it raises a lot of question marks for me on how you act.

[allan-snackbar]

What I personally cannot understand and it really puzzles me, is Majestic12 and people like him I bought a ship on this game I spent 250 dollars I think? I can't even remember nor can I remember last time I logged on there..But it does not change the fact that I put my $ on hope that the game does come out and does not fail if it does OH well its 250$ but what I cannot understand I mean this I truly can't get my head around it is this, Majestic12 why do you continue to come here in this thread page after page trying so hard to disapprove the game or its failure and or completion? Majestic12 you got a refund? You made this clear you clearly didn't like something about this game in making so why do you still come here and try to convince people who do not feel like you that its bad bad bad? These people are perfectly able to do this by themselves, yet I cannot fathom why you come in this thread day after day minute after minute and continue to disagree with anybody who supports this game AFTER you have gotten a refund? Most normal people would have walked away and just carried on with other games...yet You keep coming here its as if you love to hate the game...you Could use your time in a much better way instead on hating on a game you apparently have a refund on...i Wont go in last 50 pages about your blatant contradictions about your own statements no point really but it raises a lot of question marks for me on how you act.

This.

If one hates the game so much, why waste time on an online forum dedicated to the game to bash it and complain? I have waste my time on forums too, but to waste my time on a game I hate and actively monitor its thread/forum is just senseless. Oh well, to each their own...

[allan-snackbar]

So what this forum should just be a white knight echo chamber?

Yeah no. You want that go to the official forums.

A lot of posts here are genuine critique about the game. If you cannot handle that then you should not be debating or discussing in an online forum.

This isn't a place to discuss how "this is the best game ever and anyone who's remotely critical of it is a hater".

This is a place for both positive and critical discussion. If you believe someone's critique is wrong then either debate why you think so, report it to a moderator if it is just bashing/vile spewing posting or throw them on ignore. You have options so use them.

Posters are not here to work around your needs. They are here to engage in discussion be it positive, negative or critical. Again this is not an echo chamber.

Who says anything about White Knighting. Critique for the game? Well go to their forum and voice it? Not like they read these?

What are you even debating, there is a debate and there is bashing constantly. There is a difference. Coming here to discuss anything other than news, developments of the game is kind of useless wasted time. Hell I am wasting my time just in replying.

You are generalizing fans into white knights. Anyone who says something good = white knight, everyone who is not = bashing and lets be fair, there are posters here that make no sense.

I come here not to discuss someone critique because their critique is irrelevant to me.

Also why critique a game that you are not going to play/purchase? That's like going to McDonalds, complaining about their burgers that you have never tried. Good1.

[allan-snackbar]

I never said everyone did I? I said that would you rather the forum be a white knight echo chamber? Because remove any critique and that's what you get in any forum related to something such as gaming.

And critique will be posted wherever it wants in a forum related to it. You or I don't have any say on that.

And there is critique from what I've seen. Bashing would be going all out, insulting the devs, ragging on the game and so on. Critique can be presented in a harsh manner and that's what I'm seeing. And right now the game really does need to get it's arse in gear.

If you want to discuss the game then go for it. Nothing is stopping you. As I said if you have an issue with peoples posting there are solutions to remedy it.

Yes I know, I am merely talking about a certain poster(s). Yes there are people bashing the game. I don't care either way, what I care about is having to scroll through shit posts in order to read some valuable posts. I guess there is the ignore option but I try not to use it.

I know how forums operate, I don't understand why waste time on a game not of interest to someone. Like I said about the Maccers analogy.

[MrAnderson]

What they are doing is delaying legitimate refunds and putting up barriers with no legitimate justification. Telling people they are not entitled to a refund is NOT checking they are involved in some sort òf scam. It's at best a ploy to delay them and at worst intended to put up so many barriers that the person simply gives up.



Am I expecting an "imminent" collapse? No. But unless CIG are lying about their financial state in their reports, or have managed to hide an income stream, they are spending a lot more money than they are raising.

That inevitably does lead to financial collapse. Maybe not imminently, but within the next few years. That CIG still have huge marketing, hosting and publication costs to pay from their dwindling reserve should send up warning flares, never mind that every assurance CIG can finish the game has come from a man who has consistently and massively underestimated the time, money and manpower needed to meet his companies milestones, a man who has lied to the backers, a man who is recklessly driving up costs and adding needless delays



Income is down by a third.
Interest is shrinking
The ship sales could have been more successful
3.0 still isn't out....and it's a year late with about a tenth of the promised content.
Costs have risen
And more and more people seem to be seeking refunds
The GC17 demo was a shambles and the CC17 demo showed stuff that CR admitted wasn't going to be in game.

What makes you think SC isn't "broken" already?



Yes. Very much so. Very few people proclaim on the Internet that they got a refund for anything. Why do you think Star Citizen is any different?

For every person you see posting "I got a refund!!" there's going to be a hundred who got one without shouting about it. The backer numbers and amount raised figures aren't adjusted for refunds.



Why? I'm not wishing for CIGs collapse. But I'm also not a rabid fanboi or paid shill.

CIG and SC has many obvious problems. The likelihood that they are eating through their reserve and quickly running out of money is only one of them.

CIG could collapse tomorrow...but odds are they'll last long enough to deliver some sort of game.

I just don't think it'll be the game you think it'll be.

If you really believe what you just wrote you're even more deluded than I tought.

Dont forget to buy the milk and cookies lol

[Virgo]

Because I don't play Rift anymore for example. I'm still critical because I want the game to go back to how it was. Not out of malice but out of actual hope. I want the devs for that game to wake the fuck up and go back to how the game was. Little off topic but just an example. My passion for the game I once loved is what drives my critique.

Critique is good for a game. It always will be. Otherwise we end up with garbage piles like Daikatana or Superman 64. Or shady crap like Trials of Ascension.

I'm not saying you have to ignore but an option is there to remedy it. But your opinion is that those posts are "shit". Critique can be presented in a harsh constructive manner.

But let me ask this. If they aren't allowed to be critical or post "shit" as you put it then what about the couple of people who are acting like the game is God's gift to mankind in this thread. Defending a game and acting like it's flawless is just as bad as bashing on it.

Extremes exist on both sides.

Nobody ever mentioned removing all kinds of opinions i am the first to say this..however some people in this thread have gone wayyyy past that point there not here to actually give us feedback be it negative and or positive they come here to argue with people who have a passion for this game and continue to argue about things which are all assumption and theories...if you go back 50 posts and read a post from people like majestic they are the same words that they use on page 250+ that's not being a useful critique that's just plain hate for a game They apparently got REFUND for?? do you see what i am saying i am not saying HEY you don't bash my game!!! i am saying after 50 pages of hate you spew for this game which you got a refund for i must start wondering if you are either a liar or just love hating things??

[KyrtF]

This.

If one hates the game so much, why waste time on an online forum dedicated to the game to bash it and complain? I have waste my time on forums too, but to waste my time on a game I hate and actively monitor its thread/forum is just senseless. Oh well, to each their own...

The only people who are calling it "hate" are those who cannot seem to stand that the game and the way it is being created are subjects for criticism.

Many of the people labelled as "haters" support the game, love the vision, want to see it succeed, can't wait till the day they can play it and still hope it will be everything promised.

Many have even pledged and backed the game.

But none of that...none of it...renders the game, Chris Roberts, CIG or anyone else involved with the project immune from criticism. And providing that criticism doesn't mean you "hate" the game.

Quite the reverse...criticism often means you are very emotionally invested in the success of the project. And blind defence is often worse than no defence.

The development process is showing an alarming number of red flags.

The games progress and development is slow. Too slow.
CIG are still in a pre-Alpha state after six years. That's worrying.
CIG are trying to build and design an MMO without viable netcode in place. How do you do that?
CIG have yet to start work on technologies such as server meshing.
CIGs own reports show their income is down, show that they are spending much more than their income
Six years in and CIG stil have not finished the engine
Six years in and CIG are redoing work
Six years in and CIG has already squandered years of work through sheer incompetence
Six years in and we've seen nothing from S42 for quite some time
3.0 is a year behind schedule even with most of the content cut
CIG took out a loan with Couts and mortgaged the figurative family silver to get it.

And more.

How many red flags and issues of concern need there be before criticism is seen as valid?

[Virgo]

The only people who are calling it "hate" are those who cannot seem to stand that the game and the way it is being created are subjects for criticism.

Many of the people labelled as "haters" support the game, love the vision, want to see it succeed, can't wait till the day they can play it and still hope it will be everything promised.

Many have even pledged and backed the game.

But none of that...none of it...renders the game, Chris Roberts, CIG or anyone else involved with the project immune from criticism. And providing that criticism doesn't mean you "hate" the game.

Quite the reverse...criticism often means you are very emotionally invested in the success of the project. And blind defence is often worse than no defence.

The development process is showing an alarming number of red flags.

The games progress and development is slow. Too slow.
CIG are still in a pre-Alpha state after six years. That's worrying.
CIG are trying to build and design an MMO without viable netcode in place. How do you do that?
CIG have yet to start work on technologies such as server meshing.
CIGs own reports show their income is down, show that they are spending much more than their income
Six years in and CIG stil have not finished the engine
Six years in and CIG are redoing work
Six years in and CIG has already squandered years of work through sheer incompetence
Six years in and we've seen nothing from S42 for quite some time
3.0 is a year behind schedule even with most of the content cut
CIG took out a loan with Couts and mortgaged the figurative family silver to get it.

And more.

How many red flags and issues of concern need there be before criticism is seen as valid?

Don't you think that if you get a refund for this game it's gone past wanting for it to succeed and its moved into the hate territory? i mean you got your money back yet your willing to spend x amount of time arguing with others about a game you seem to not want part of anymore?

Also shouldn't this kind of critical criticism and or concerns be actually posted on official forums? for me personally if it takes 10 years and game comes out solid and polished i'm cool waiting and if it fails it will fail..but you wont catch me here every day defending the game especially when i would want to be playing it waiting sucks but might be good or not..either way continued criticism and i mean >continued< criticism is only bashing the same thing we all hear ya mate we see the flags toooo but posting it here on MMO champ will not change anthing..i for one would not sit here and argue every day with people about my view of failure and or success it will not change a thing.

[KyrtF]

If you really believe what you just wrote you're even more deluded than I tought.

Dont forget to buy the milk and cookies lol

The typical White Knight response....if you can't do anything to debate the criticism, throw some mud and hope the critic loses some credibility.

It is hard, for example, for you to dismiss CIGs own reports and financial information which show them to be losing money. Or that they have taken in much less money to date this year than the same period last year.

So...trying to discredit the critic is about all you can do. What I am not sure of is...why?

- - - Updated - - -

Don't you think that if you get a refund for this game it's gone past wanting for it to succeed and its moved into the hate territory?

No. It means I've lost faith that you will develop or release the game I backed and I want my money back.

i mean you got your money back yet your willing to spend x amount of time arguing with others about a game you seem to not want part of anymore?

Getting your money back doesn't mean you've given up all hope of seeing the game released

Also shouldn't this kind of critical criticism and or concerns be actually posted on official forums?

If people want to, let them. However....the SC community has a reputation for being toxic to criticism.

for me personally if it takes 10 years and game comes out solid and polished i'm cool waiting and if it fails it will fail..

It already has failed. MMOs are not something that can be tacked on. They need to be created and built from the ground up so that it can fll work as intended.

CIG are building an MMO....but have yet to bring in netcode suitable for an MMO. CIG ate building an MMO...but have yet to even START work on core technologies such as server meshing.

How can CIG possibly create the game you backed if these critical links aren't there?

Money? CIGs income has declined sharply in the previous year while their costs have risen. Paying appropriate hosting, publication and marketing costs will take a huge chunk out of whatever reserve they have left. Refunds also appear to be increasing.

Development time? Six years and CIG are still in pre-Alpha. Six uears and the engine isn't finished. Six years and critical components that the game needs aren't even started. How much of a rework do you think will need to be redone when CIG finally gets around to working on these components?

Competency? Chris Roberts squandered years of work and wasted millions of dollars by not keeping third party developers up to daye on work CIG were doing on the game engine.
Chris Roberts is either showing total ignorance of or demonstrating major incompetence by ignoring modern development techniques...insisting on creating Betsa level content which are already being reworked while critical engine components languish in development is not a recipe for quick, easy or cheap debelopment. Especially when said game will likely need a fair amount of reworking when those components are added.

People like you keep complaining about the criticism. But...I notice you never seem to have any GOOD news about the project.

[MrAnderson]

What I personally cannot understand and it really puzzles me, is Majestic12 and people like him I bought a ship on this game I spent 250 dollars I think? I can't even remember nor can I remember last time I logged on there..But it does not change the fact that I put my $ on hope that the game does come out and does not fail if it does OH well its 250$ but what I cannot understand I mean this I truly can't get my head around it is this, Majestic12 why do you continue to come here in this thread page after page trying so hard to disapprove the game or its failure and or completion? Majestic12 you got a refund? You made this clear you clearly didn't like something about this game in making so why do you still come here and try to convince people who do not feel like you that its bad bad bad? These people are perfectly able to do this by themselves, yet I cannot fathom why you come in this thread day after day minute after minute and continue to disagree with anybody who supports this game AFTER you have gotten a refund? Most normal people would have walked away and just carried on with other games...yet You keep coming here its as if you love to hate the game...you Could use your time in a much better way instead on hating on a game you apparently have a refund on...i Wont go in last 50 pages about your blatant contradictions about your own statements no point really but it raises a lot of question marks for me on how you act.

Well this is typical case of a boy who fell in love with an idea of a game and got his heart broken instead.

Coping with the fact that his dream game is not exactly like how he expected to be (usually it's because o the flight model or for being banned from the official forum) has turned high expectation into high frustration.

The only way to end this deeply engraved type of frustration is by finding a "new love" (They wanted Elite to be it but...lol) and suppress the feeling of emptiness with newborn hype or seeing the "true love" die so they can get some closure and finally move on with their life's.

As for the few non backers who seem to be on a crusade to criticize CIG and Star Citizen for everything and some more are usually goons riding the wave, envious elite dangerous fanboys afraid that SC undermines their "lover's success" or folks that think they look witty by being cynical despite only following the game by reading the media clickbate headlines.

That's about it. Give or take.

[Odeezee]

Virgo and MrAnderson i agree with you both, you wrote a lot so i won't quote, but i do truly find it fascinating myself. it's as though some people that hate on the game have some sort of cognitive dissonance; pledging to back a game's funding but act like it's a pre-order/purchase, critiquing a game still in the alpha stage of development as if it were a fully released title and complaining about the most ambitious game in history not being out yet after only being in development for 5 years (though most MMOs from established studios take 5-7 years on average) yet the devs are making 2 AAA quality games concurrently that are pushing the boundaries of tech, mechanics and fidelity, are just a few examples of this. it's truly fascinating to watch. the only apt correlation i was able to find was like being a man of science trying to have a debate about science with someone who believes that the Earth is flat, while they are on a computer or phone and in a world where GPS is a thing. /shrug

back on topic, First showcase of Component Interaction (still WIP but great to see the progress):

https://clips.twitch.tv/SpotlessCred...eleaCclamChamp

i highly recommend watching the whole video that the clip was taken from if you are at all interested in their tech it was a great watch:




CIG released a screen cap of their 60 player server test:



BaconEvolved on Reddit took this screen-cap of the Reliant Kore:



CIG released some of the Citizencon 2947 attendees' headscans:



CIG Dev FULLFACE_jon had this to say about the headscans on Reddit:

Hi guys,Thanks for posting up our work.
These are just medium resolution scans that we built to send to the scanned folks as a nice memento.
I'm not going into details but there are further scan sessions in the pipeline....

Prometheus_ts shared some of his Xeno food creations (these cracked me up so thought you guys might enjoy them too):

[MrAnderson]

The typical fud.

Lol the same old tactic of spilling lot's of half truths and made up facts into a hur pile of words that altoguether resume to a whole lot of nothing.

You should put those on a blog and sign as doctor.

[KyrtF]

Lol the same old tactic of spilling lot's of half truths and made up facts into a hur pile of words that altoguether resume to a whole lot of nothing hehe.

You should put those on a blog and sign as doctor lol

And again with the effort to throw.mud.

Do you have any facts or information to show that CIGs information is false?

[MrAnderson]

And again with the effort to throw.mud.

Do you have any facts or information to show that CIGs information is false?

Oh I'm not throwing mud at you. I'm just laughing at you splashing in it trying to have other's join the bullshit lol.

This has being going is most Star Citizen discussion threads since 2015 give or take for anyone reading.

It's a known fud tactic and obfucation from the usual haters, mostly buthurt goons that got lifetime bans from the official forum for disruptive behaviour and Elite fanboys.

They find something (anything really) and twist it as negatively they can and trow it around as facts and supreme truth lol

90 day's Top

[KyrtF]

Virgo and MrAnderson i agree with you both, you wrote a lot so i won't quote, but i do truly find it fascinating myself. it's as though some people that hate on the game have some sort of cognitive dissonance; pledging to back a game's funding but act like it's a pre-order/purchase, critiquing a game still in the alpha stage of development as if it were a fully released title and complaining about the most ambitious game in history not being out yet after only being in development for 5 years (though most MMOs from established studios take 5-7 years on average) yet the devs are making 2 AAA quality games concurrently that are pushing the boundaries of tech, mechanics and fidelity, are just a few examples of this. it's truly fascinating to watch. the only apt correlation i was able to find was like being a man of science trying to have a debate about science with someone who believes that the Earth is flat, while they are on a computer or phone and in a world where GPS is a thing. /shrug

SWTOR took five years to develop.
Warcraft took four
Archeage took two
Everquest took three
Dark Age of Camelot took two

Need I go on?
I don't know where you got the idea that MMOs take 7 years to create but it is wrong.

And even if you were correct....it has been almost seven years and CIG is still in the pre-Alpha phase. That means it has at least another three years and likely more.

And no....simply because CIG SAYS they are pushing boundaries does not mean they are doing so. Even the face modelling tech you use in your post...been in use since the days of the Amiga. Procgen...1983. Procgen cites...1990s. RaaT?1990s again.

These systems that you are hyping up and shilling for them are not new nor groundbreaking nor revolutionary. They aren't even particularly innovative. And the only thing ambitious seems to be how much CIG can raise without actually handing over a game.

And yes....critiquing a game that is still in its preAlpha state after 6 years of development, that is years behind schedule, that doesn't have a finished engine, where development is occurring without core critical systems in place meaning huge sections will need massive reworks over the next few years and where the developers, for whatever reason, are inviting increased costs and slower development by ignoring the basic fundamentals of development is very much deserved

- - - Updated - - -

Oh I'm not throwing mud at you. I'm just laughing at you splashing in it trying to have other's join the bullshit lol.

No...you're throwing mud and you aren't even honest enough to admit it.

Fortunately, most people are intelligent enough to realise that a few specially crafted demos don't make a game, and that a company that is bleeding cash won't stay in business too long unless it takes steps to make money.