you do realize what false equivocation is, right? you saying both sides lash out is just a statement made without context. why you would do that? idk. just because both sides lash out does not mean that both sides are equal in doing so and it also acts as though there is justification on both sides, which there is not as detractors of the game offer very little, if any, evidence to corroborate their claims.
this is a thread to discuss Star Citizen and it's development, tell me how throwing in speculation and conjecture based off of false premises helps any fact based discussion? you have people who audaciously claim that CR is a poor project manager, how the fuck would they know that? are they a current/former employee who would be privy to the knowledge required to make that judgement? what proof do they have? not liking someone is not evidence, misunderstanding something is not evidence, and so because they have zero evidence why even bring it up in the first place? exactly! this is why those of us who support the game get ticked off because it's an onslaught of the same re-hashed, tired and debunked points of contention the detractors have, which then overshadows any meaningful discussion about the game. so no, your statement was falsely equivocating.
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That you have to ask shows you haven't really been reading these posts or even following the development of the game.
Chris Roberts failings as a manager include...but are not limited to...
Deciding to change the type of game being produced without adequate planning
Failing to ensure adequate communication with third party developers leading directly to years of work being thrown out and the waste of millions of dollars
Continually underestimating the amount of work, time and money required to meet his projects milestones
Failure to ensure his development teams are following best practise for game development
Abdicating responsibility by holding a public poll
first of all, you seem to be conflating things that i was not arguing. idc if people hate or love the game, meaningful discussion does not hinge on that. what it does hinge on are facts and when people try and push their own theories, speculation and out and out lies as fact is where any meaningful discussion is lost. my observation was that the side with by far the largest amount of non-factual arguments is that of the detractors, so trying to equate both sides as being offenders does not give context or nuance as to severity and frequency, as well as egregiousness of the claims.
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new video from Frustmaster showcasing the M50:
Evocati Saber Raven leak: http://dai.ly/x69wlio
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haha, really speculation and theorizing leads to meaningful discussion? how? where? all that it leads to most often is just misinformation or people misconstruing things. e.g. having a discussion on the current flight model is a valid point of argument, one in which people can give their objective and subjective views on something currently verifiable, now compare that to speculating about CIG's current monetary burn rate, as something we cannot verify and whose discussions lead to a lot of misinformation going out there which and that is never good.
Back on topic!
Saber Raven Leaks: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x69y8io and http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x69y87z
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This is just where bias starts interfering though. It's all fine to speculate and theorize on things like "the game changer" but as soon as it moves on to a topic you don't like to discuss, speculation and theorizing suddenly becomes bad, even if that topic is based on plenty of examples in the real world...
It's like your spoiler for the Saber Raven, what's the point of it, what can we discuss? All we could do is speculate and theorize based on other ships they sell and how much it might cost. But I suppose that is meaningful![]()
Unable to verify is not quite the same as pointless discussion
Thanks to liitle things such as the financial reports that are freely and publicly available we do know quite a bit more about CIGs ginancial status than you seem to think or imply.
And for all you might hate it, the industry accepted figure of $14k per man month for a development budget appears fairly accurate, We certainly have no reason to doubt it.
CIG is taking in about $2.5 million a month. According to their own figures. Are they lying? They might be. But if they are, they'd be lying high.
Trouble is that if we go by the rule of thumb budget estimate....CIG are spending more than they bring in
If we go by the rule of thumb estimate but modify the figures to give CIG the benefit of the doubt...say 300 instead of 458 at $10k per momth instead of $14k...then CIG are still spending more than they bring in.
If we go by what we know from reports such as the UK tax reports or the Coutts loan issue...CIG are still spending more than they bring in.
So its more a question of estimating the size of their reserve and how long that will last than questioning if CIG don't have money troubles.
That reserve could be entirely gone...or it might be as high as $50 million.
But so far...none of the discussion about it relies on misinformation. Its an educated guess corroborated by their financial returns, loan documents, industry wide rules of thumb and their own behaviour.
While it may be nice to talk about the business practices of companies, let's please bring the focus of the thread back to the game at hand "Star Citizen". People may disagree with the company, some may agree. Let's agree that we have our differences and don't need to argue about the company. Keep the thread about the discussion about the game.
I think the problem is 80% of the post is some guys bashing CIG because "mismanagement, will run out of money, etc" others counter them, and 20% is about the game, development, etc.
If it would be the other way around that would be fine.
Last edited by Malibutomi; 2017-11-20 at 05:59 PM.
Personally, I would wait until more gameplay mechanics for both ships are in place. Conceptually, these ships are completely different. Sure, the Polaris is combat focused, but we really have no idea what we'll be doing with the Jump and what mechanics will be in place for it. I would also wait and see what other group-focused ships will be in the game. For example, the recently revealed Pioneer could be an interesting play style for a small group of players.
Those are established companies with track records of failing to deliver quality products, or just making games that wind up having insane budgets and aren't extraordinary. In all my years, I haven't played a game that Chris Roberts has created that I'd deem as being as bad as some of the trash that EA has been churning out the last several years, and Bioware has made more great games than they have garbage games. I have no reasons to believe that Chris Roberts won't follow through with SC, only a real fool would hinge their own reputation as much as he has only to not deliver a great product.
Lots of developers with great reputations end up makig not so great games...and Chris Roberts history isn't one of 100% success.
For example, many of his gameplay ideas for SC are awful and while this might be expected of a preAlpha when concepts are being tossed around, CIG are trying to get this into a "playable state"
CIG is also of concern when deciding IF SC will ever release and in what form, never mind issues such as monetization of the game. Certain aspects of the game and its development are almost impossible to separate from discussion of the company itself and as Myobi pointed out similar discussions on other topics do involve the company...a point you seem to agree with by trying to show why SC should be made an exception rather than follow normal practise.
Last edited by KyrtF; 2017-11-20 at 10:49 PM.
"Normal practice" can't entirely be applied to a primarily publicly funded development project. Sure, they are going about a lot of things in ways that we wouldn't expect, or even want. Getting the project to a functional state is probably more to appease backers than it is to actually push further in the development process. The more time they spend not releasing things that keep the game from a playable state, it might be more annoying for backers who have expected to be getting extensive testing capability, but for the average backer like me who just wants to see the game ultimately be a quality piece of work that stands above other games, I am fine with the delays. Personally, I'd rather not test a bug laden and extremely incomplete product that is going to have so many changes made, because that just leads to disappointment when the game moves along and it winds up being entirely different.
Unexpected 3.0 cargo and trading show off in Citizen of thr Stars:
thank you. i just abhore misinformation which generally tends to arise from speculation, but my apologies for contributing to that discourse.
you are conflating things again. basically don't make conclusive statements without any evidence, simple. you can state your opinion, but the premise upon which your opinion is based on can be challenged if it is faulty/irrelevant/etc, and remember having an opinion does not absolve someone from lying/being naive/misinforming/being disingenuous/etc.
first, i would decide what role i'd like better combat or exploring in luxury. second, i would see how many friends i have that would want to play with me as they are both multi-crew ships and large targets. third, would just be which one is more aesthetically pleasing to you. but it does not hurt to also wait until they flesh out their roles and gameplay mechanics further. i def think that the 890 Jump is sexy af.
Evocati Raven Leak (Chasing the Sunset):https://streamable.com/9ce0i
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