[Megathread] Star Citizen

[masterhorus8]

So after selling ships that doesnt exist in game, followed by selling land that has no mechanics the next step from CIG is to sell mechwarrior suits.

There is no point talking about the technical debt they aquired selling concepts, its already clear they will not deliver on all mechanics. So why not selling ANYTHING? Mechsuits ? why not.

1. concept ships : see blue on image. lol. mechanics attached to ship roles inexistent. 20+ crew ships while game runs at 5fps with more than 4 people in vicinity doing stuff.

2. land, no mechanics

3. mechwarriors hahahaha

1) This is nothing new. Since the start of the game, ships have been sold with the mechanics nonexistent. How nice of you to notice 5 years later. PS: They've already had servers run with 60 people, all in ships, at 25 fps. Not the best, but still no where near your delusional numbers.

2) Learn to read. There is already plenty of info about the land that has been posted in here.

3) You okay there?

[Daffan]

combat is only a small part of the game and even in its current form is far better than whats in current games, while it is not the final iteration of light/combat, the flight model currently in 3.0 is fairly smoothed out.

What is it excatly you don't like about the flying when its supposed to resemble something of a realistic simulation without being too overlay complex for the user, and for combat there is not so much you can do when things are meant to be as realistic as possible.

Fully realistic would be extremely boring, which it is not thankfully. At the moment, it has a very low skill floor & ceiling and the depth is lower then WW1 biplanes.

There is a myriad of problems;

1) Gimbals are for mouse only. Control parity is dumpster tier.

2) Just because it's 6-DoF doesn't make it good. When Yaw/Pitch rates are over 90 degrees per second, it becomes a flying turret simulation.

3) PvP revolves around two ships facing each other and constantly firing. It is impossible to maneuver out of someones gunsight. This meta has been the same for 4 years and will continue to do so unless fast 6-DoF is reworked. When a tiny maneuvering thruster on the front of your ship is as powerful as your mains thruster, that's funny.

4) PvE is even worse because the AI don't understand 6-DoF. So the entire gameplay is putting your mouse cursor on the enemy lead pip and holding left click. It will be funny when the AI finally learn 6-DoF, then it will be like PvP. The AI will just face you the entire time, spam strafe and fire non-stop as a DPS check.

To expand, Imagine a WW2 game where there is no air resistance, no gravity, the weapons basically aim themselves and you can spin like a bottle top in any direction, with no care in the world or energy management. That's Star Citizen. It doesn't have any of the benefits of an Atmospheric dogfighting game, nor any benefits of a Space dogfighting game. It's some weird hybrid that has the worst of both worlds (Their big ship design, SCM speeds and a lot of turret gameplay is based on WW2 modeling)

Overall, It's basically Descent from the 90's, with most ships having horrible cockpits with unusable screens and bars everywhere.

To be fair on Star Citizen, there is not a single space dogfighting game out there that isn't complete crap. Seriously I doubt anyone could name one that had good combat, outside of nostalgia. Interesting story and simulation/sandbox mechanics, but combat was always the lowest point.

[Malibutomi]

MyRadar interview with CIG: https://motd-content.azureedge.net/m...1128T0140.html

[Rennadrel]

To make it even worse, they actually wrote the following right on top of the Kickstarter page:



I mean, they are selling, ships, weapons, components, in-game currency… what do they consider “pay to win” then?






Holy fucking Jesus...

And we all know that's bullshit because paying for that stuff now doesn't mean you get it when the game goes live. All that stuff gets reset, but keep on grasping for straws

[nocturnus]

And we all know that's bullshit because paying for that stuff now doesn't mean you get it when the game goes live. All that stuff gets reset, but keep on grasping for straws

I'm quite sure you get to keep the ships you bought.

https://www.quora.com/If-I-pledge-fo...fully-released

Sound like the perfect definition of pay to win to me.

combat is only a small part of the game and even in its current form is far better than whats in current games

I sincerely doubt this. To which of the "current games" are you referring and what makes SC's combat better?

[nocturnus]

The fact that they exist isn't the worst part or being able to keep them.

It's the fact that a unfinished game has microtransactions in.

It's greed. Nothing else. There is literally no grounds to defend this and doing so is just really sad at best.

It's the kind of praise I was referring to. People who bring the whole "this is fine" attitude towards games that do nonsense like this. (Not referring to you of course)

From a psychological point of view it's quite normal; buyers remorse and choice-supportive bias go hand in hand. There's no conversing with people who display these symptoms either.

[Rennadrel]

I'm quite sure you get to keep the ships you bought.

https://www.quora.com/If-I-pledge-fo...fully-released

Sound like the perfect definition of pay to win to me.



I sincerely doubt this. To which of the "current games" are you referring and what makes SC's combat better?

Stock ships will always be available, the P2W is in the equipment and currency, which all reset when the game launches. But keep cherry picking

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.... what the actual fuck are you even on about?

Not only that is false, but it would only make this entire bullshit even worse, “Pay us thousands of dollars and we give you this sugoi fucking ass ship… that we will delete once the actual game gets released!”…. “keep on grasping for straws”, jesus fuck you people are just impressive.

Ship access isn't P2W, since stock ships won't be all that good when the game goes live. There is only P2W when currency and equipment can be purchased right out of the gate, which won't be the case.

[nocturnus]

Stock ships will always be available, the P2W is in the equipment and currency, which all reset when the game launches. But keep cherry picking

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Ship access isn't P2W, since stock ships won't be all that good when the game goes live. There is only P2W when currency and equipment can be purchased right out of the gate, which won't be the case.

Wow, your head's really that far in the sand, isn't it?

Yeah, I'm sure all those ships that cost hundreds of dollars are readily available for newbies upon release.

[masterhorus8]

Kay, first of all, what exactly do you consider “p2w”? Because in my books, anything that allows you get in-game advantage over other players by spending real life cash, if you can buy ships, plot, weapons, upgrades, game credit than it is pay-2-win, regardless of how big that advantage may be, I believe this is also the commonly accepted definition of it.

Now, you are claiming that “this” and “that” will get reset by the time the games get’s released, I would love the source of this information, because I went through the damn FAQ (Link: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/f...-earth-credits) and it all points towards the opposite, but if that’s indeed the case, as I already mentioned, is even just fucking worse… they are charging people for something that they won’t even get even if the game gets released.

Still regardless if it gets indeed a reset or not, selling limited amounts of credits per week/month it is something that I believe they already announced, it will keep happening even after this supposed reset, therefore I really don’t get your point here…

Also, let’s be honest here… none of us as bloody clue how good those fucking things will be, but judging by some of their price tags, I have my fucking doubts that they will just be basic tier shit.

I don't know which reset he is specifically he is talking about unless he's referring to ships being upgraded at some point down the road in alpha/beta once said upgrade mechanics are included, but as for the basic tier, I think I know. The ships that are buyable now are all with stock loadouts, with all of the weapons and stuff that we've talked about from VD. One of the major future mechanics in the game will be tuning ships and weapons to improve their performance in some area(s) and then the actual good weapons/upgrades that you can get that will supposedly be gated behind reputation. There is pretty much 0 information on how much better said equipment will be, but it is supposed to be the driving force in making your ship better (and apparently the reason why LTI isn't supposed to matter much).

EDIT: A few ships here and there have something special though, such as some really big gun for the Drake Buccaneer, and maybe a few of the alien ships having their appropriate alien weaponry, such as the Banu Defender, Banu Merchantman, and the Xian Scout, among whatever it is on the Vanduul ships.

[kenn9530]

And we all know that's bullshit because paying for that stuff now doesn't mean you get it when the game goes live. All that stuff gets reset, but keep on grasping for straws

You will have access to all the ships at launch, whether you can afford to fly the ship or operate it is the question, plus there will be many modifications to be made to make a ship much more useful than the stock version, you currently can't buy the best equipment just basic versions.

Plus this game is only partially pvp, a huge part of the game is focused on pve and we don't even know what systems will be inplace for people who want to attack other players.

Kay, first of all, what exactly do you consider “p2w”? Because in my books, anything that allows you get in-game advantage over other players by spending real life cash, if you can buy ships, plot, weapons, upgrades, game credit than it is pay-2-win, regardless of how big that advantage may be, I believe this is also the commonly accepted definition of it.

The largest part of the game is the pve part, pvp is going to have certain disadvatages so pirate players will be the main thing to look out for.

Plus the ships you buy are just basic stock fitted, there is going to be many modifications to be made.

[Miyani]

I think what he means is the current in game alpha UEC that gets reset along with th current weapons/armour you can buy from shops in game which it does between major patches. As far as buying ships we can purchase the Hull of the ship currently which will be like 10% of your overall game if that when live. The main aspect for in game will be upgrading your ship with better weapons/cooler/CPUs and so on, majority of which aren't even out yet to toy with.

There is zero point buying anything from voyager direct, as i have stated before one of my friends did this brought a lot of weapons for his ship and you know what, they re balanced them and they all became worthless compared to what his ship originally came with. THE GAME IS NOT FINISHED YET things change, we don't know how voyager will work in the future or if they will ultimately remove it since majority of players haven't even bothered with it outside of hangar flair/merchandise sales. Anything brought in Voyager as far as weapons/equip goes can now be brought in game from doing around 5 or even less in game missions for an hour.

As for buying currency we know they currently want to put a 20k UEC cap each month on it for now till they figure out if they even want to use it in later iterations of the game, again EVERYTHING is still subject to change and depends on how well received they are from the community (this game actually listens to its players) We have no idea what this cap on monthly money will even afford in game since the economy isn't done yet. What they have stated is it will be enough to purchase fuel to get you off of your feet and doing a mission to earn more if you haven't been able to log in for awhile but would like to quickly go and do something in your ship.

Remember this game still needs funding to both build/maintain and pay their staff, it is a self published game and they have to source their own funding instead of having some already established outside publishers giving them set funding and limit them on what they can and cannot do in their own game.

Also base hull big ships will still be vastly more expensive to outfit with upgrades than the starter smaller ships will be. Someone who brought a javelin which currently comes with zero turrets attached to it will have a much greater start up cost than someone who can jump strait into a starter ship and immediately start missions. I know if i had a javelin i wouldn't be looking forward to upgrading or outfitting it right off the bat compared to upgrading something like gladius which will be quick and much cheaper to do up at the start of the game.

[1001]

As for buying currency we know they currently want to put a 20k UEC cap each month on it for now till they figure out if they even want to use it in later iterations of the game, again EVERYTHING is still subject to change and depends on how well received they are from the community (this game actually listens to its players) We have no idea what this cap on monthly money will even afford in game since the economy isn't done yet. What they have stated is it will be enough to purchase fuel to get you off of your feet and doing a mission to earn more if you haven't been able to log in for awhile but would like to quickly go and do something in your ship.

Sorry but this is incorrect. The monthly cap is 750,000 UEC ($750), there is a daily limit of $25 and a wallet cap of $150 but you can simply spend 25,000 UEC when you reach the wallet cap and then top up again to keep on going for the full monthly limit.

Remember this game still needs funding to both build/maintain and pay their staff, it is a self published game and they have to source their own funding instead of having some already established outside publishers giving them set funding and limit them on what they can and cannot do in their own game.

It only still needs funding because of the decisions made by the company, not the backers. They decided to open 4+ studios and employ upwards of 450 people claiming the game would be bigger, better and made faster. They have now taken $172 million up front over a period of 5 years which should be more than enough but when one looks at the speed of their progress it appears to be far from enough.

How long can people keep shovelling dollars into CIG's archaic steam engine?

[Miyani]

It only still needs funding because of the decisions made by the company, not the backers. They decided to open 4+ studios and employ upwards of 450 people claiming the game would be bigger, better and made faster. They have now taken $172 million up front over a period of 5 years which should be more than enough but when one looks at the speed of their progress it appears to be far from enough.

How long can people keep shovelling dollars into CIG's archaic steam engine?

This was discussed already earlier, the old version of the kick starter was already funded but when asked in a vote if the backers wanted them to ultimately go bigger and fund the game further for a better and grander game the voters picked yes. What i'm reading is you just really hate this game and find nothing good about it. I have no idea why you even bother coming on this sub in the first place if that was the case. I hate many a games like the old GW2 i once played which have you seen their cash grabs and how every new thing they bring out goes strait into the cash shop locked behind RNG? i hated their sales practices so i dropped the game and never looked back. You know what i don't do, visit their forums and bitch about every single thing about the game cause it wasn't what i personally wanted it to be. By the sounds of it this game simply isn't for yo, if you paid in money ask for a refund and move on.

[kenn9530]

Sorry but this is incorrect. The monthly cap is 750,000 UEC ($750), there is a daily limit of $25 and a wallet cap of $150 but you can simply spend 25,000 UEC when you reach the wallet cap and then top up again to keep on going for the full monthly limit.

actually this is incorrect, there is a cap of buying 25k UEC each day but the wallet only holds 150k currently, im sure the wallet when realesed will be increased so you can purchase the more expensive items later.

once the game is near complete im sure 25k will not even be that much ingame or just take a few hours to earn, just with pledging ships now they may remove the option to buy UEC at launch.

[Rennadrel]

I don't know which reset he is specifically he is talking about unless he's referring to ships being upgraded at some point down the road in alpha/beta once said upgrade mechanics are included, but as for the basic tier, I think I know. The ships that are buyable now are all with stock loadouts, with all of the weapons and stuff that we've talked about from VD. One of the major future mechanics in the game will be tuning ships and weapons to improve their performance in some area(s) and then the actual good weapons/upgrades that you can get that will supposedly be gated behind reputation. There is pretty much 0 information on how much better said equipment will be, but it is supposed to be the driving force in making your ship better (and apparently the reason why LTI isn't supposed to matter much).

EDIT: A few ships here and there have something special though, such as some really big gun for the Drake Buccaneer, and maybe a few of the alien ships having their appropriate alien weaponry, such as the Banu Defender, Banu Merchantman, and the Xian Scout, among whatever it is on the Vanduul ships.

IIRC, all ship upgrades and currency at live release will be reset, from what I remember CIG saying a few years ago. Has this changed? I don't remember but I don't follow close enough to have ever seen that changing. But the cost of operating ships will be expensive enough and even if you were to have upgraded battle cruisers and some of the larger ships, it doesn't mean people will be able to fly them right out of the gate either. I have two ships in my hanger, the Avenger and the Drake Cutlass. Neither of these ships have upgrades aside from whatever comes on the variants I have chosen. If I upgraded them now, my understanding is that anything I buy in alpha/beta will be wiped out when the game goes into a live state.

[kenn9530]

IIRC, all ship upgrades and currency at live release will be reset, from what I remember CIG saying a few years ago. Has this changed? I don't remember but I don't follow close enough to have ever seen that changing. But the cost of operating ships will be expensive enough and even if you were to have upgraded battle cruisers and some of the larger ships, it doesn't mean people will be able to fly them right out of the gate either. I have two ships in my hanger, the Avenger and the Drake Cutlass. Neither of these ships have upgrades aside from whatever comes on the variants I have chosen. If I upgraded them now, my understanding is that anything I buy in alpha/beta will be wiped out when the game goes into a live state.

everything you buy for real money you will 100% get to keep, anything earnt in versions prior to release would be what you don't get to keep. Thats basic common sense and what happens in every single game just about.

If you spend your game UEC on items in the voyager shop you will get to keep those also since your using the actual ingame currency from your wallet, however most of the items are just basic iterations and would be stupid to waste your UEC on them until the final version.

Currently you can only use ingame credits to rent other ships but most of the time thats not needed as you get a good variety of ships to try out anyway/

[Majestic12]

This was discussed already earlier, the old version of the kick starter was already funded but when asked in a vote if the backers wanted them to ultimately go bigger and fund the game further for a better and grander game the voters picked yes. What i'm reading is you just really hate this game and find nothing good about it. I have no idea why you even bother coming on this sub in the first place if that was the case. I hate many a games like the old GW2 i once played which have you seen their cash grabs and how every new thing they bring out goes strait into the cash shop locked behind RNG? i hated their sales practices so i dropped the game and never looked back. You know what i don't do, visit their forums and bitch about every single thing about the game cause it wasn't what i personally wanted it to be. By the sounds of it this game simply isn't for yo, if you paid in money ask for a refund and move on.

Hey, I want to adress a few things.

Honestly, Miyani, do you feel that just because the backers were hyped and voted yes that it was the right call to pursue that?

1. Would you ask a kid in a candystore if he wants more candy? Everybody knew what the outcome of that poll would be. Chris knew it. All the devs knew.

2. Backers aren't game devs. They don't know what is good/bad decisions in terms of making actual games. They operate out of hype and subjectivity. (See point #1)

3. Do you feel, that in hindsight, CIG would have gotten the same result if the backers knew what would happen? I think not. It was a simple spur of the moment thing.

To put some perspective, I along with my friends were a part of the extreme minority of single digit percent that voted against it. It was all for nothing because of course the backer hype and traction made the hype train fly forward.

Should Chris have stopped with his original scope? I think absolutely. It was what he got paid to do. Now with the expanded scope, we have nothing. No game(either the original scope and/or the expanded one), No financial accountability in the ToS(removed), no actual game mechanics such as mining. The game simply doesn't exist, and all we've been fed over the years is more ship sales (which has now expanded into plots of land). It never ends.

I simply feel that the poll that always gets brought up is a nice and convenient excuse to justify what CIG has done. The reality looks far different, where Chris and CIG should be held accountable for the technical and surrounding decisions they make with regards to their own product. Chris simply screwed this project up plain and simple. The only reason the scope was expanded is because Chris couldn't contain himself. He literally fell into the same trap as he did with Freelancer. The only difference is that there is no publisher to bail him out this time.

The worst part of it all was that Chris knew this would happen. He went om record and said "anything beyond 2014" would be dull. That's precisely what it has become with all these sales. It's project mismanagement at its finest.

[KyrtF]

Stock ships will always be available, the P2W is in the equipment and currency, which all reset when the game launches. But keep cherry picking

Are you seriously telling us you believe that backers who spend thousands of dollars buying up ships and land and money and more will see all of that wiped when the game launches?

Ship access isn't P2W, since stock ships won't be all that good when the game goes live. There is only P2W when currency and equipment can be purchased right out of the gate, which won't be the case.

Those ships you buy today will be yours the day the game launches. If CIG are going to let you keep in game money, they're going to let you keep the ships.

That would be bad enough in a PvE game ( Our game is so much fun we'll let you pay to skip it!!!) but in a game which will supposedly jave a strong PvP element, its blatant pay to win.

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This was discussed already earlier, the old version of the kick starter was already funded but when asked in a vote if the backers wanted them to ultimately go bigger and fund the game further for a better and grander game the voters picked yes.

And how many voted? And what was the margin of "victory"?

And lets be brutally honest here....CR got the result he wanted and he knew ahead of time the way the vote was likely to go.

It was also a vote that should NEVER have taken place.

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IIRC, all ship upgrades and currency at live release will be reset, from what I remember CIG saying a few years ago. Has this changed? I don't remember but I don't follow close enough to have ever seen that changing. But the cost of operating ships will be expensive enough and even if you were to have upgraded battle cruisers and some of the larger ships, it doesn't mean people will be able to fly them right out of the gate either. I have two ships in my hanger, the Avenger and the Drake Cutlass. Neither of these ships have upgrades aside from whatever comes on the variants I have chosen. If I upgraded them now, my understanding is that anything I buy in alpha/beta will be wiped out when the game goes into a live state.

It's a game where you can buy an i game advantage over other players by spending real life cash.

Look at other games and see how how players get around built in limits. If you want to make the argument that players won't or can't abuse the system, then you aren't thinking hard enough.

To put it another way....those ships you think will be too expensive for players to fly? They'll be zooming along the space lanes in less than a week....and very likely, right out of the gate. Some people think nothing about running 2 or 3 or 10 accounts to feed one main.

In gsme money won't be difficult for such players to come by....they'll transfer it from an alt and then buy their upgrades and then go around blasting everyone else to bits.

[Trifle]

To be fair on Star Citizen, there is not a single space dogfighting game out there that isn't complete crap. Seriously I doubt anyone could name one that had good combat, outside of nostalgia. Interesting story and simulation/sandbox mechanics, but combat was always the lowest point.

Tie Fighter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_TIE_Fighter)

I accept your apology.

[Deleted]

the funny parts are at the end, when scam citizen flight model enters arena