[Megathread] Star Citizen

[Kyanion]

With gold you can buy gear. With gold you can buy boosts, with gold you can buy about everything this game can offer from PvP ranks to Mythic raid clears. And you can buy gold for real money. No matter how you wish to defend P2W practices it is definately a one. So is buying levels.

Okay you go ahead and try to buy a bunch of wow tokens and sell them in game and see how much gold you get and what that can buy you as far as mythic runs and carries are concerned. And the point is you are NOT buying those directly from the cash shop. THAT is the pay2win. If I was buying let's say Shadowmourne from the in game cash shop while a player had to spend months building it, I paid to win. If I paid real money or gold to players to take me on runs to let me get the pieces to build it, that isn't pay 2 win. It is something different.

[Wilian]

Okay you go ahead and try to buy a bunch of wow tokens and sell them in game and see how much gold you get and what that can buy you as far as mythic runs and carries are concerned. And the point is you are NOT buying those directly from the cash shop. THAT is the pay2win. If I was buying let's say Shadowmourne from the in game cash shop while a player had to spend months building it, I paid to win. If I paid real money or gold to players to take me on runs to let me get the pieces to build it, that isn't pay 2 win. It is something different.

Paying something with gold you've earned is not P2W. Buying gold and paying with that is

[Kyanion]

Paying something with gold you've earned is not P2W. Buying gold and paying with that is

Again you are just arguing a point that has been beaten to death. It is not a direct purchase of power on an in game cash shop. You aren't buying gear directly from a cash shop. The items or services you want might not even be provided on X server, it does not mean you get an instant clear and everything you want. There are limitations and it is not a direct service between 1 player and Blizz.

[Wilian]

Again you are just arguing a point that has been beaten to death. It is not a direct purchase of power on an in game cash shop. You aren't buying gear directly from a cash shop. The items or services you want might not even be provided on X server, it does not mean you get an instant clear and everything you want. There are limitations and it is not a direct service between 1 player and Blizz.

You are arguing a moving goalpost. Your argument always ends up with something akin "It's not P2W unless you buy to get to the end credits".

The matter is simple. If you put in real money and gain a benefit, it's P2W. There's absolutely no other reason to complicate it beyond that other than to act as a white knight in defense of poor practices.

[Kyanion]

You are arguing a moving goalpost. Your argument always ends up with something akin "It's not P2W unless you buy to get to the end credits".

The matter is simple. If you put in real money and gain a benefit, it's P2W. There's absolutely no other reason to complicate it beyond that other than to act as a white knight in defense of poor practices.

Besides the fact talking about WoW is offtopic, it isn't moving of goalposts. You are the one that has a different definition of pay2win than many people. Yours is not the standard of how it is viewed so it really doesn't fucking matter. You can continue to argue this to yourself if you like I'm done wasting more time on it.

[Wilian]

Besides the fact talking about WoW is offtopic, it isn't moving of goalposts. You are the one that has a different definition of pay2win than many people. Yours is not the standard of how it is viewed so it really doesn't fucking matter. You can continue to argue this to yourself if you like I'm done wasting more time on it.

Whenever you have to claim you're speaking for the many it crumbles the base of your argument. Same is claiming 'this is standard' when basic common sense dictates that it obviously is not. I too am speaking for great many and the obvious standard is that if you gain benefit by paying money you're partaking in P2W mechanic.

[Wilian]

Sure, I personally don’t disagree with that… but we can agree there is a difference between paying 20$ for help going through a dungeon that you can do once per week that may reward you with pretty much nothing and popping up the game store, pointing towards what you what and throw cash at it, right?

Sure. There are degrees and severities of P2W and it varies from game to game that allows it. But P2W they remain as a collective.

[kenn9530]

Sure… if most of people interpreted “Pay 2 Win” the same extreme way you are desperately trying to just because you couldn’t make much of an argument that SC doesn’t has p2w elements in it, therefore if we just define all games as P2W, that will make it okay.

Expect it’s just fucking ridiculous, I mean, according to your logic, if you can purchase an account of ebay, than the game is P2W, if you can bribe your little brother with candy to farm for you, than the game is P2W, if a strangers helps you trough a bunch of quests, and you suck his dick than the game is P2W… as I said, most of that shit isn’t provided by the game itself, a lot of it is considered a bannable offense, then there the limitations, the RNG and the part that in some of it you still need to go trough the content one way or another.

Also, “skills”, ah yes, pair 2 players on the same level, gear up on to the teeth, and give the other one low tier stuff, see how that goes…



Yes, there will always be better players more skilled and better equipped than you, how does that supposedly justify it? I’m fine getting ass fucked by someone who happens to be more talented than me or simply worked harder than me, it’s how video games work, I do have a problem however, when I’m getting fucked by a guy whose parents bank account just happen to be deeper than my own.

thats just how the world works, people with money always have the advantage, but having a certain ship wont mean your going to win a fight over another player so you can put as much money as you want in and still get destroyed, if your in a starter ship your not going to have much of a chance but those player wont be traveling far from where they start and will upgrade thier ship ingame before they proceed since those ships cant jump that far.

Also as far as im aware SQ42 character data should transfer over to the PU so your not just going to have your starter ships anyway or at least have extra money to spend to get an extra ship, so players will have plenty of time to progress and complete the single player campaign.

[Kyanion]

Claiming that a game is "Pay-to-win" because one player might pay another player to help them is beyond absurd.

No shit, they are just twisting the term to fit a really weak narrative.

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thats just how the world works, people with money always have the advantage, but having a certain ship wont mean your going to win a fight over another player so you can put as much money as you want in and still get destroyed, if your in a starter ship your not going to have much of a chance but those player wont be traveling far from where they start and will upgrade thier ship ingame before they proceed since those ships cant jump that far.

"having a certain ship wont mean your going to win a fight" and "if your in a starter ship your not going to have much of a chance". So neither person wins?
You know who really wins in that situation? The person with the better ship. That's who.

[1001]

thats just how the world works, people with money always have the advantage, but having a certain ship wont mean your going to win a fight over another player so you can put as much money as you want in and still get destroyed, if your in a starter ship your not going to have much of a chance but those player wont be traveling far from where they start and will upgrade thier ship ingame before they proceed since those ships cant jump that far.

Your defense seems to be that if there is not an assured win condition from paying money then there is no P2W. This is an extremely outdated view. Many many games that are almost universally regarded as P2W do not sell absolute winning power via their cash shops.

The SC fan site, Relay, did a reasonable dive into this. I'm sure I've linked it before but here it is again https://relay.sc/article/is-star-citizen-pay2win

[kenn9530]

Your defense seems to be that if there is not an assured win condition from paying money then there is no P2W. This is an extremely outdated view. Many many games that are almost universally regarded as P2W do not sell absolute winning power via their cash shops.

The SC fan site, Relay, did a reasonable dive into this. I'm sure I've linked it before but here it is again https://relay.sc/article/is-star-citizen-pay2win

what are you talking about, im stating that there is an element of pay 2 win in most games, kyanion argues wow has no p2w at all which he is been proven wrong but wont admit it. I didnt say there was no p2w at all in SC but its more of a slight advantage in certain areas of the game and not like your going to be an unkillable god because you have a certain ship.

God, I hope you are wrong about that… is the single player going to be online only?

i know they did mention at some point you can play through the campaign and then carry that character over to the PU, so it would likely just be reputation and whatever earning you made throughout and possibly a ship at most, the single player would just have measures to prevent cheating if thats the case.

[Kyanion]

what are you talking about, im stating that there is an element of pay 2 win in most games, kyanion argues wow has no p2w at all which he is been proven wrong but wont admit it. I didnt say there was no p2w at all in SC but its more of a slight advantage in certain areas of the game and not like your going to be an unkillable god because you have a certain ship.

You haven't 'proven' anything wrong. Yet again you go back to the pay 2 win in 'most' games. Before it was every game, now it is most.

"slight advantage". Pay 2 win is fucking pay 2 win man.

[kenn9530]

You haven't 'proven' anything wrong. Yet again you go back to the pay 2 win in 'most' games. Before it was every game, now it is most.

"slight advantage". Pay 2 win is fucking pay 2 win man.

it seems your in complete denial, in wow your paying for ingame advatages like lvl boost and gold which in turn can be used for anything available ingame, wow has p2w its as simple as that.

[Kyanion]

it seems your in complete denial, in wow your paying for ingame advatages like lvl boost and gold which in turn can be used for anything available ingame, wow has p2w its as simple as that.

Again I've explained this to you but you are having trouble with it I guess. Go ahead and buy a level boost and as much gold as the game lets you buy. Now try and turn that pitiful amount of gold into a mythic carry when the new raid is being cleared. I'll wait and so will you because you won't be able to afford it. You can't directly buy power from the in game shop. Totaalllllyyyy the same thing as buying more powerful ships than normal people can have in SC, yup totally the same.

[1001]

what are you talking about, im stating that there is an element of pay 2 win in most games, kyanion argues wow has no p2w at all which he is been proven wrong but wont admit it. I didnt say there was no p2w at all in SC but its more of a slight advantage in certain areas of the game and not like your going to be an unkillable god because you have a certain ship.

Here we go, pull the other kenn. Your obfuscation and deflection tactics are just sad. Just admit when you're wrong and stop doubling down....

[kenn9530]

Again I've explained this to you but you are having trouble with it I guess. Go ahead and buy a level boost and as much gold as the game lets you buy. Now try and turn that pitiful amount of gold into a mythic carry when the new raid is being cleared. I'll wait and so will you because you won't be able to afford it. You can't directly buy power from the in game shop. Totaalllllyyyy the same thing as buying more powerful ships than normal people can have in SC, yup totally the same.

You dont need to be able to directly buy power for it to be p2w, just being able to buy the currency alone is enough to make a game have p2w, if you can buy anything that benefits your ingame character its pay 2 win

Here we go, pull the other kenn. Your obfuscation and deflection tactics are just sad. Just admit when you're wrong and stop doubling down....

and again what are you even talking about, p2w is a fact of the current generation of gaming, most of the time its more like a pay to skip but if you can spend real money on a game, its still pay 2 win

[Kyanion]

You dont need to be able to directly buy power for it to be p2w, just being able to buy the currency alone is enough to make a game have p2w, if you can buy anything that benefits your ingame character its pay 2 win

Yup, you just don't get it. That's okay. You can argue WoW being pay2win or not until you are blue in the face. What is a p2w game though, is SC. That you cannot debate. Just because X game does it does not excuse the shit SC is pulling.

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and again what are you even talking about, p2w is a fact of the current generation of gaming, most of the time its more like a pay to skip but if you can spend real money on a game, its still pay 2 win

Jesus, please do not use the word fact. You are using it very very wrong.

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I mean, you got to admit, it's quite a confusing evolution of the damned thing.

Now he's lobbing out the word 'fact' when discussing p2w. It really is sad.

[MrAnderson]

I don't think WoW is a great comparison. WoW is ONLY about GEAR and GEAR alone. You can't lose items on WoW because of other players, your ability to do stuff doesn't change considerably depending if you go on foot or in your mount. You don't really get harsh penalties for attacking players and so on.

From what I'm observing the only ones crying about pay2win are the ones that don't play the game, they are basically future concerning and worrying in advance for the sake of being afraid that a game they "think" they might enjoy in the future will be ruined because of the ship sales.

Well news flash, it's been selling ships since the beginning. There's backers going back to 2012 with fleets worth of thousands and thousands of dollars. Nonetheless there's new backers joining every day. We can see them complain about dying from bugs and glitches, having trouble landing, killing players or npc's, doing quests and so on but no one is crying about P2W because there's always options to move on with your game and do your thing no matter what.

If someone has a problem with Star Citizen selling ships it's ok. There's plenty of games that don't sell them that are released and you can play right now.

Go for it!

[Kyanion]

From what I'm observing the only ones crying about pay2win are the ones that don't play the game, they are basically future concerning and worrying in advance for the sake of by being afraid that a game they "think" they might enjoy in the future will be ruined because CIG sells ships.

Well it isn't like they can do much else. The game has not launched in a state where people will KNOW what pvp rules are in place, how everything will work. All we know for now is you can drop real money for more powerful ships than what you start with. As long as they keep resetting progress people make the game is in alpha or whatever. When they are at a point that no more resets will happen I guess you'll see how shit will turn out in PvP.

[Dhrizzle]

FWIW I agree with Kyanion that for a game to be pay-to-win it should give you an advantage for real-money that you can't gain through gameplay. World of Tanks had gold ammo that was superior to regular ammo, RIFT had gear slots that could only be unlocked with cash and MW:O is treading a thin line with unique mechs that (last time I checked) weren't gamebreakingly better than others.

If you want to stretch the term to include games that allow you to pay to essentially skip grind then I can't be bothered arguing, but personally I think there should be a distinction between games where paying gives you an advantage other players can't match, and games where paying saves you time or allows you to skip part of the game.

Whether buying ships will be bad for the game depends on what exactly the game turns out like (though it won't be bad for the game objectively, but it may affect people's subjective experiences of the game.) In Elite: Dangerous (the closest reference to what Star Citizen is trying to be) buying the ship you want is only the start of it, you'll probably end up spending a lot more on upgrades to the components and once that is done the real grind begins for materials for engineering. Getting one of the biggest ships fully kitted out can be done in a night or two of mining but unlocking the engineering to fully realise its potential can take much longer, and that's ignoring that some of the more desirable ships require you to grind rank with either Federal or Imperial militaries.

So buying ships could turn out to be little more than buying a boost in WoW and you may still have a lot of work ahead to be the best, or it may be like buying PLEX in EVE and you can essentially throw your wallet at getting the best ships and gear around.

I don't care either way, I've long ago accepted that in this sort of shared-world game there'll be players doing better due to more free time and/or better hardware to play on. Adding a bigger wallet to that list doesn't make too much of a difference.