1. #10041
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone Jack View Post
    snip
    Im not saying they dont have timeframes to try and complete things by, the term deadline is just redundant and just opens up the avenue of constant failure. The term deadline is only used in the UK for dates that have to be completed by like university applications and there is no flexiblity.

    CiG dont have enough staff for this size of game so the work they are doing is going as good as possible, they are constantly trying to hire more staff but that could be a while, and unless your actually working for CiG then your not going to know what things they have actually completed or are working on atm.

    SQ42 doesnt need the things that the MMO needs to work so most of the staff is working to complete SQ42, and the things in SQ42 will be used in the MMO, i do expect at least a few months delay of SQ42 since working from home will be far less effective, but it could be on track for beta at the end of the year.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  2. #10042
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone Jack View Post
    snip.
    It is a shame a well thought out comment about this with some knowledge on how this industry works will likely be ignored or tossed aside by the other side in your discussion. It really shines a light on just how mismanaged this project is (which most of us should all well know based on their missed deadlines and fuckups)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    i do expect at least a few months delay of SQ42 since working from home will be far less effective, but it could be on track for beta at the end of the year.
    Dreamweaver right there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Im not saying they dont have timeframes to try and complete things by, the term deadline is just redundant and just opens up the avenue of constant failure. The term deadline is only used in the UK for dates that have to be completed by like university applications and there is no flexiblity.
    I don't speak to have any knowledge of the inner workings of game development but I'm pretty sure 'deadline' isn't just a UK term or at least it isn't used like that.

  3. #10043
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    I don't speak to have any knowledge of the inner workings of game development but I'm pretty sure 'deadline' isn't just a UK term or at least it isn't used like that.
    And where is your proof of mismanagement, the game being created has more work to be done but not enough staff to do everything in time, this game would require at least double the staff to do what any other company does.

    Deadline is a date which something must be completed by, you cant just set a deadline then say hey it doesnt matter lets change the date again.

    In any regards complaining about not completing things is not just about star citizen its all games so all your complaining about is common occurance in game development.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  4. #10044
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    And where is your proof of mismanagement
    Are we serious right now? Are you being willfully ignorant (again) of dates they put out and missed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    the game being created has more work to be done but not enough staff to do everything in time, this game would require at least double the staff to do what any other company does.
    Damn, how much more money do they need to keep fucking this up? I better get my wallet to pitch in! It is their problem for letting feature creep get WAY out of hand. Their fault for trying to make two games at once when one was going to be a difficult as hell task.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Deadline is a date which something must be completed by, you cant just set a deadline then say hey it doesnt matter lets change the date again.
    Guess we'll just ignore any date they have ever put on this project, yup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    In any regards complaining about not completing things is not just about star citizen its all games so all your complaining about is common occurance in game development.
    Duh and people have a right to complain about a company fucking it up and missing a deadline, it happens. But to you it is perfectly okay. But the difference? This one is crowdfunded, I can complain about Blizz all day, but it isn't crowdfunded. Big and very important difference you love to ignore.

  5. #10045
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Are we serious right now? Are you being willfully ignorant (again) of dates they put out and missed?

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    Damn, how much more money do they need to keep fucking this up? I better get my wallet to pitch in! It is their problem for letting feature creep get WAY out of hand. Their fault for trying to make two games at once when one was going to be a difficult as hell task.

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    Guess we'll just ignore any date they have ever put on this project, yup.

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    Duh and people have a right to complain about a company fucking it up and missing a deadline, it happens. But to you it is perfectly okay. But the difference? This one is crowdfunded, I can complain about Blizz all day, but it isn't crowdfunded. Big and very important difference you love to ignore.
    According to you then every single game in development is mismanaged because they always miss these so called deadlines, but because most development is behind closed doors you are unable to complain about it. And you ignore that any date in development is subject to change so no dates were missed.

    Doesnt matter if a game is crowdfunded or not its no different to how any other company is run, they have also raised 120 million over the years from investors to the subs and other things that make CiG money.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  6. #10046
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    According to you then every single game in development is mismanaged because they always miss these so called deadlines, but because most development is behind closed doors you are unable to complain about it. And you ignore that any date in development is subject to change so no dates were missed.

    Doesnt matter if a game is crowdfunded or not its no different to how any other company is run, they have also raised 120 million over the years from investors to the subs and other things that make CiG money.
    It does matter if a game is crowdfunded or not. That is why you eternally miss the point of many discussions and forgive CiG for everything they do. I just love how you ignore the multiple dates they put out and missed. They sucked so hard at even putting out dates to miss that they stopped putting dates on it. Now you just wait and hope that at the end of the year you get your beta. Lol, keep dreaming.

    Are you acknowledging that CiG put out deadlines? Yes or no? If no why would it matter if they pushed back the date? As you say there was no deadline to miss. If you're going to argue that they are free to ignore any deadline because they can push it back at will then how can you say there was no deadline in the first place? Which is it man? Did they put out deadlines only to move them back or did they never put out a single date on this game?

  7. #10047
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    According to you then every single game in development is mismanaged because they always miss these so called deadlines, but because most development is behind closed doors you are unable to complain about it. And you ignore that any date in development is subject to change so no dates were missed.

    Doesnt matter if a game is crowdfunded or not its no different to how any other company is run, they have also raised 120 million over the years from investors to the subs and other things that make CiG money.
    I cannot make head nor tail of this false equivalency word salad.

  8. #10048
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    It does matter if a game is crowdfunded or not. That is why you eternally miss the point of many discussions and forgive CiG for everything they do. I just love how you ignore the multiple dates they put out and missed. They sucked so hard at even putting out dates to miss that they stopped putting dates on it. Now you just wait and hope that at the end of the year you get your beta. Lol, keep dreaming.

    Are you acknowledging that CiG put out deadlines? Yes or no? If no why would it matter if they pushed back the date? As you say there was no deadline to miss. If you're going to argue that they are free to ignore any deadline because they can push it back at will then how can you say there was no deadline in the first place? Which is it man? Did they put out deadlines only to move them back or did they never put out a single date on this game?
    No it doesnt matter if its crowdfunded or not, because if you back the game you take any and all risks that come along and even accept the potential for it not to be completed. Every single game in development constantly misses targets they try to achieve so what would it matter if SC does the same as any other company.

    They have dates when they would want something finished but if its not ready then it not really an issue, there is only so much work the devs can do in a day, the term deadline is not appropriate the date to finish something can be changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by masterblaster0 View Post
    I cannot make head nor tail of this false equivalency word salad.
    In simple terms all companies fail to achieve targets on a daily basis but the person above constantly calls them out on it when every other company is the same.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  9. #10049
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    In simple terms all companies fail to achieve targets on a daily basis but the person above constantly calls them out on it when every other company is the same.
    Still a false equivalency. It is a whataboutism.

    All companies miss deadlines at one point or another but non-crowdfunded companies are beholden to their publishers or investors for missing them and crowdfunded companies are beholden to their backers for missing them.

    One could argue there is a moral obligation for strict time/financial management within crowdfunded projects.

  10. #10050
    Quote Originally Posted by masterblaster0 View Post
    Still a false equivalency. It is a whataboutism.

    All companies miss deadlines at one point or another but non-crowdfunded companies are beholden to their publishers or investors for missing them and crowdfunded companies are beholden to their backers for missing them.

    One could argue there is a moral obligation for strict time/financial management within crowdfunded projects.
    Backers have no say in what goes on with the company, its up to the company if they choose to listen but are not required to, the backer takes the risk in putting money into a project.

    Complaining about something that is just an industry standard is just pointless, it doesnt invite anything constructive, he probably has at least 200 posts saying the same thing over and over, at least complain about a game mechanic once in a while. He is only interested in SC failing as he has stated he will never install or even play the game.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  11. #10051
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Backers have no say in what goes on with the company, its up to the company if they choose to listen but are not required to, the backer takes the risk in putting money into a project.
    Regardless. This does not make them free from criticism. I also believe the Pledge document from Cloud Imperium did specify they would listen. It would be a poor show if Cloud Imperium only did so when it suited them especially so with a crowdfunded project.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Complaining about something that is just an industry standard is just pointless, it doesnt invite anything constructive, he probably has at least 200 posts saying the same thing over and over, at least complain about a game mechanic once in a while. He is only interested in SC failing as he has stated he will never install or even play the game.
    You are misusing the term industry standard. Companies making tires, wheels, frames to fit 26" bike wheels would be creating an industry standard, producing bent and buckled wheels is not.

    He is entitled to his opinion. Don't engage if you don't want to see it. That is the simple solution no?

  12. #10052
    Quote Originally Posted by masterblaster0 View Post
    Regardless. This does not make them free from criticism. I also believe the Pledge document from Cloud Imperium did specify they would listen. It would be a poor show if Cloud Imperium only did so when it suited them especially so with a crowdfunded project.



    You are misusing the term industry standard. Companies making tires, wheels, frames to fit 26" bike wheels would be creating an industry standard, producing bent and buckled wheels is not.

    He is entitled to his opinion. Don't engage if you don't want to see it. That is the simple solution no?
    Complaining in this forum is actually pointless, its meant to be used to actually discuss the game but many just use it because they dont like Chris or the game, it serves no purpose.

    CiG operate pretty much the same as any other developer they just have less staff and a much larger game to develop, so complaining when they are just doing the same as another company is a waste of time, chris is making the game he has always wanted to, if you dont like it dont support the game but its being made regardless and there is plenty of support to get it made.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  13. #10053
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Complaining in this forum is actually pointless, its meant to be used to actually discuss the game but many just use it because they dont like Chris or the game, it serves no purpose.
    I have not been here long but the only person I have ever seen discuss the game is Val the Moofia Boss. All other posts are either advertising or arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    CiG operate pretty much the same as any other developer they just have less staff and a much larger game to develop, so complaining when they are just doing the same as another company is a waste of time, chris is making the game he has always wanted to, if you dont like it dont support the game but its being made regardless and there is plenty of support to get it made.
    K

  14. #10054
    Seems the obsession with Star Citizen, CIG and Chris Roberts is so deep that it makes them blind to the fact that every other companies face the same hurdles.
    Actually I don't know if it's because of simple ignorance about game development or if it's just that they hold such a strong personal grudge about Star Citizen because they got emotionally wounded for it not living up to their expectations that they just want to find ways to rationalize their frustration by trying to find reasons "bad" at the cost of reality. Or maybe it's a bit of both.

    Considering that there are ample examples of similar dev struggles happening with other kickstarted mmo's. Everyone adapts the scope of their games along development, changes or removing features, has troubles hiring staff, struggles with network and performance issues and so on. The thing is that most of it happens behind doors and protected by NDA testing so it's not so exposed to the whole gaming world who's comprised of mostly people ignorant of the game development process.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...-sci-fi-mmorpg
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...one-war-pc-mmo
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...aken-virtues-0
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...elot-unchained
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...trepid-studios

    Guess all these studios are "liars", "scammers", "incompetent", "perfectionists", "feature creepers" for missing their "deadlines", not having set release dates, still doing core work in their engine etc etc...

    Some haters got so deeply trapped in the mindset of "Star Citizen is bad" to justify whatever emotional hurdles they got from having their hearts broken to the point of frantically wishing for a video-game to "burn".

    Such individuals that can't accept the unpredictably of crowdfunded game development and the uncertainties that comes with them.
    It's clear that the problem rely's not in Chris Roberts, Star Citizen, crowdfunding or open game development but with people being able to manage their emotions and expectations while accepting that they can't know or control everything and that trowing tantrums about it year after year is not productive.

  15. #10055
    So here's the thing that I observed after close to a decade in software development, games or not. Any poorly managed project will drag on without progress and any project can be finished timely with good management. I believe this comes from the self selection bias, where programmers are mostly lazy and unless specifically told that this needs to be done today, they won't even start working on it today.

    Star Citizen clearly shows some progress, but equivalent of which I reasonably would expect after several months from a team who has the source of their funding breathing down their neck, not 3 years. That's even ignoring the perverse incentive to keep it in development for as long as possible that some actors might have. CIG became increasingly unwilling to show tangible progress or describe it other than vague statements that keep money flowing in. I won't lie, I never expected the game to get to a release state, but not for the reasons I now think it is where it is. I thought it was going to burn because they can't deliver what they promised (simply because I don't think that's doable or desirable in a single game), but instead, it looks to me that it's burning because it's a pretty good cash cow as long as they do as little as necessary and more or less would be inefficient in terms of money. I also think the management knows that they will run dry at some point in the future, but until then, enjoy the ride.

  16. #10056
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Seems the obsession with Star Citizen, CIG and Chris Roberts is so deep that it makes them blind to the fact that every other companies face the same hurdles.
    Actually I don't know if it's because of simple ignorance about game development or if it's just that they hold such a strong personal grudge about Star Citizen because they got emotionally wounded for it not living up to their expectations that they just want to find ways to rationalize their frustration by trying to find reasons "bad" at the cost of reality. Or maybe it's a bit of both.

    Considering that there are ample examples of similar dev struggles happening with other kickstarted mmo's. Everyone adapts the scope of their games along development, changes or removing features, has troubles hiring staff, struggles with network and performance issues and so on. The thing is that most of it happens behind doors and protected by NDA testing so it's not so exposed to the whole gaming world who's comprised of mostly people ignorant of the game development process.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...-sci-fi-mmorpg
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...one-war-pc-mmo
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...aken-virtues-0
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...elot-unchained
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...trepid-studios

    Guess all these studios are "liars", "scammers", "incompetent", "perfectionists", "feature creepers" for missing their "deadlines", not having set release dates, still doing core work in their engine etc etc...

    Some haters got so deeply trapped in the mindset of "Star Citizen is bad" to justify whatever emotional hurdles they got from having their hearts broken to the point of frantically wishing for a video-game to "burn".

    Such individuals that can't accept the unpredictably of crowdfunded game development and the uncertainties that comes with them.
    It's clear that the problem rely's not in Chris Roberts, Star Citizen, crowdfunding or open game development but with people being able to manage their emotions and expectations while accepting that they can't know or control everything and that trowing tantrums about it year after year is not productive.
    One could say you have an obsession with people posting non-positively towards the project.

    I see the point you are trying to make and believe it is wrong. Nearly all of those projects have received criticism aplenty for delays, quality of product or funding methodology. Secondly they have received <$10M in crowdfunding whereas Cloud Imperium has received >$250M.. People make more allowances for smaller teams with smaller budgets. If Cloud Imperium wants to play with the big boys they are going to be judged accordingly.

    Cloud Imperium have made a lot of claims over the years and people are judging the product against those claims. Is that not fair?

  17. #10057
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    So here's the thing that I observed after close to a decade in software development, games or not. Any poorly managed project will drag on without progress and any project can be finished timely with good management. I believe this comes from the self selection bias, where programmers are mostly lazy and unless specifically told that this needs to be done today, they won't even start working on it today.

    Star Citizen clearly shows some progress, but equivalent of which I reasonably would expect after several months from a team who has the source of their funding breathing down their neck, not 3 years. That's even ignoring the perverse incentive to keep it in development for as long as possible that some actors might have. CIG became increasingly unwilling to show tangible progress or describe it other than vague statements that keep money flowing in. I won't lie, I never expected the game to get to a release state, but not for the reasons I now think it is where it is. I thought it was going to burn because they can't deliver what they promised (simply because I don't think that's doable or desirable in a single game), but instead, it looks to me that it's burning because it's a pretty good cash cow as long as they do as little as necessary and more or less would be inefficient in terms of money. I also think the management knows that they will run dry at some point in the future, but until then, enjoy the ride.
    We have yet to see most of the progress the game has done, there will be a ton hidden because they dont want to spoil SQ42, the game has fund for a few years currently and last year and this year they probably wont even lose any money at all so funding is currently fine, a game in development is not going to make a profit as all the money goes to development, they will make more money when the game is released and can cut down on staff.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  18. #10058
    Quote Originally Posted by masterblaster0 View Post
    If Cloud Imperium wants to play with the big boys they are going to be judged accordingly.

    Cloud Imperium have made a lot of claims over the years and people are judging the product against those claims. Is that not fair?
    Complaining in random forums about a game or a company is not "judging it" or making it "accountable for what they do say". It's venting at most. The only way to "hurt" a company is not buying it's products and ignoring it.

    2nd CIG are doing exactly the same as every other company when developing their games and promoting them by maintaining their potential costumers aka player base engaged.

    The "big boys" do the same in their own way, releasing E3 "gameplay" trailers of games that aren't even in production to showcase shiny stuff to create hype and please shareholders.

    Game Development is a business and part of that business is also marketing your product to get funding to make it possible.

    Cue Ubisoft's BeyondGood&Evil2 or Bethesda's Starfield trailers...

    One of the main reasons "big boy" studios develop in secrecy and behind closed doors is so that they dont have to deal those who get so emotionaly attached to their "dream game" that when it doesn't turn out how they expected they become so toxic that they go as low as wanting it to "collapse" whille actively going out of their way to try and harm it (harassing dev's, pushing fake stories to the press, faking glassdoor reviews etc).

    So it's not surprising why "BigBoy" studios hide their hurdles and struggles while developing their AAA games. But by doing so they mislead gamers by portraying a cleaner image of what actually happens during game development.

    Two-edge sword indeed.

  19. #10059
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Complaining in random forums about a game or a company is not "judging it" or making it "accountable for what they do say". It's venting at most. The only way to "hurt" a company is not buying it's products and ignoring it.

    2nd CIG are doing exactly the same as every other company when developing their games and promoting them by maintaining their potential costumers aka player base engaged.

    The "big boys" do the same in their own way, releasing E3 "gameplay" trailers of games that aren't even in production to showcase shiny stuff to create hype and please shareholders.

    Game Development is a business and part of that business is also marketing your product to get funding to make it possible.

    Cue Ubisoft's BeyondGood&Evil2 or Bethesda's Starfield trailers...

    One of the main reasons "big boy" studios develop in secrecy and behind closed doors is so that they dont have to deal those who get so emotionaly attached to their "dream game" that when it doesn't turn out how they expected they become so toxic that they go as low as wanting it to "collapse" whille actively going out of their way to try and harm it (harassing dev's, pushing fake stories to the press, faking glassdoor reviews etc).

    So it's not surprising why "BigBoy" studios hide their hurdles and struggles while developing their AAA games. But by doing so they mislead gamers by portraying a cleaner image of what actually happens during game development.

    Two-edge sword indeed.
    K

    (10 char)

  20. #10060
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Complaining in this forum is actually pointless, its meant to be used to actually discuss the game but many just use it because they dont like Chris or the game, it serves no purpose.
    Don't try to tell us what the forums are for. You mean for it to be an echo chamber of positive vibes about the game. If that was the case this thread would be nearly dead and have few posts. If you don't like this thread there are plenty of other ones out there and on other sites. You aren't going to chase anyone off and stop acting like you are a mod.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Seems the obsession with Star Citizen, CIG and Chris Roberts is so deep that it makes them blind to the fact that every other companies face the same hurdles.
    You always try and use this tired attempt, it really is sad. You want this to be the truth so much and keep trying to promote this false narrative.

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