1. #10861
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    I never thought of critics and haters as the whiteknights of gaming Negativity & Drama but it's a great analogy.
    All I'm seeing is a lame attempt at deflecting and it just gives an insight that looking deeper into your disingenuous claims is classed as doomsaying... Hardly the mentality of someone being receptive to knowledge or analysis. Ah excuse me, you only want "positive" thinking and "constructive" analysis, aka views that mirror your own :rolleyes

  2. #10862
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    All data is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    Knock yourself out.
    We've already gone over this. Citizens are registered people on the site and practically means nothing for the sake of your argument. You claim a specific majority of backers support CIG's decisions which is complete speculation.

    Don't try to use statistics to fool people and say anything to make CIG look good.

    That stats don't say what you claim, don't even try it again.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Antipathy1018 View Post
    You are a bit wrong Mr. A's graphs only shows money coming in, not how it is distributed.
    My bad, I mean how it's spread over the months of a year, not actual distribution meaning x cash goes to y.

  3. #10863
    The only reasonable explanation for a company continuous growth in funding and player engagement is that the customers are dissatisfied.

    With that reasoning Anthem has a lot of satisfied consumers.

    Cue Bohemian Rhapsody
    Last edited by MrAnderson; 2020-07-23 at 05:40 PM.

  4. #10864
    Old customers are dissatisfied and stop giving money, new customers give money - growth happens and we have both dissatisfied and happy customers. The good news is that it cannot go forever. Also, growth can come from other sources as well, not specifically new customers. Maybe they've got investors.

    I know they don't teach this in Matrix.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2020 - that's two-zero-two-zero, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  5. #10865
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    snip
    They put out everything that was relevant to the origional kickstarter plan, the game was changed so things in the kickstarter were not going to happen anymore, they still put out the base line of what the kickstarter was by the end of 2015 and even included a fair amount more.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  6. #10866
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    They put out everything that was relevant to the origional kickstarter plan, the game was changed so things in the kickstarter were not going to happen anymore, they still put out the base line of what the kickstarter was by the end of 2015 and even included a fair amount more.
    Every single thing I quoted is quoted directly from the original KS, not including stretch goals. It still doesn't seem to track with what was included in the game by Alpha 2.0 at the end of 2015.

  7. #10867
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Old customers are dissatisfied and stop giving money, new customers give money - growth happens and we have both dissatisfied and happy customers. The good news is that it cannot go forever. Also, growth can come from other sources as well, not specifically new customers. Maybe they've got investors.

    I know they don't teach this in Matrix.
    Shouldn't funding go stagnant after 8 years by that logic? How does it explain the growth in player engagement in twitch/youtube?

    Why teach when there's still so much to learn.
    Last edited by MrAnderson; 2020-07-23 at 06:20 PM.

  8. #10868
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Shouldn't funding go stagnant after 8 years by that logic? How does it explain the growth in player engagement in twitch/youtube?
    What logic? Why should it go stagnant? More and more players get suckered in than initially were at KS. It's even easier now - they have progress and a build to show - it's way easier to sucker people in. That's what marketing does. Plus investors. They too can be suckered in.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2020 - that's two-zero-two-zero, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  9. #10869
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    What logic? Why should it go stagnant? More and more players get suckered in than initially were at KS. It's even easier now - they have progress and a build to show - it's way easier to sucker people in. That's what marketing does. Plus investors. They too can be suckered in.
    But why do you think they're more "suckered" in than the initial funders? How do you distinguish new funders from old funders? How can it be easier now that there's a playable build when before was just an idea? Why do people keep funding it and joining the alpha when they can play during free-flights, see reviews on youtube or streamers play the game live on twitch? Wouldn't that expose the "scam" and "doom" the game instead of boosting it's players and funding?

    Why didn't Anthem keep their marketing and suckering new players and investors then if it's so easy when there's a build to show?

  10. #10870
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    But why do you think they're more "suckered" in than the initial funders?
    Are you suggesting that the money stream is supported by exclusively old backers? That's crazy!
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Why didn't Anthem keep their marketing and suckering new players and investors then if it's so easy when there's a build to show?
    Anthem again? Where did it touch you?
    Marketing doesn't work when the game is released and it sucks. That's probably why they didn't spend money on it. They are not idiots.
    The game that's in development and basically early early access - bring on the suckers! Complaints? It's just alpha, man!
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2020 - that's two-zero-two-zero, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  11. #10871
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Are you suggesting that the money stream is supported by exclusively old backers? That's crazy!
    Nah that's the haters narrative, only whales are supporting Star Citizen now since nobody else likes the game. /s

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Anthem again? Where did it touch you?
    Marketing doesn't work when the game is released and it sucks. That's probably why they didn't spend money on it. They are not idiots.
    The game that's in development and basically early early access - bring on the suckers! Complaints? It's just alpha, man!
    So why do games didn't Anthem released in a early access then? Why do early access/crowdfunded games even need to release if they know they'll just end up dead?
    Last edited by MrAnderson; 2020-07-23 at 07:31 PM.

  12. #10872
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    The only reasonable explanation for a company continuous growth in funding and player engagement is that the customers are dissatisfied.

    With that reasoning Anthem has a lot of satisfied consumers.

    Cue Bohemian Rhapsody
    There are so many holes in your argument it's actually ridiculous.

    I challenge you to show statistics that support your original claim:

    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    And the big picture showcases the grand majority of the backers supports CIG decision as the constant growth in funding and players show year after year.
    Can you?

    For example:

    In the document, we have 2,740,391 citizens. (Unique registered accounts on the site). If we assume the same 50% ratio as before(confirmed by Turbulent back in the day) between citizen and backer, we get roughly 1 370 195 rounded down. In a year (from 2019-07-22 to 2020-07-22) citizens increased by 391 340 which would roughly translate to 195 670 new backers.

    You can take the %-ratio and change it to whatever you want. Put out the facts to support your claim.

    • Where is your data to support what the grand majority of backers, 685 097 in this example, feel about CIG's current decision? For all you know these guys could be Derek Smarting it up on Spectrum as we speak with the rest of the vocal community.
    • Where is your data that shows funding spent per backer, as to see who is responsible for what amount in relation to the funding increase? For all you know Kenn practically could have funded the growth all by himself.
    • Where is your data that eliminates the idea that the new backers aren't simply spending more money than new backers did before due to the sheer amount of assets you can now buy in Star Citizen which has increased over time?
    • What growth of players are you actually talking about? Citizen != Backer != Player. A very small minority actually ends up playing games pre-release, it's always like this.

    You're leaking, buddy. I can poke holes in your claim forever. You are confusing so many things and you have absolutely nothing to go on to support your claim. Total funding increasing and people registering new accounts on the site does not prove your argument.

    I know you can't provide anything, you know you can't, so just drop the spiel already and admit you were wrong. You probably won't, and then this will be another one of those issues that will keep popping up in this thread until the project is finished one way or another. Then people will keep complaining we post about the same shit as always and the cycle will repeat.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Almost forgot: This is what I actually came here to post.

    A fellow developer's very reasonable take on the state of Star Citizen.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen..._star_citizen/

    It's a good read no matter which side you're on. It doesn't look good for SC period.
    Last edited by Majestic12; 2020-07-23 at 07:42 PM.

  13. #10873
    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    In the document, we have 2,740,391 citizens. (Unique registered accounts on the site). If we assume the same 50% ratio as before(confirmed by Turbulent back in the day)
    What 50% ratio "back in the day" ? What day? Is data immutable now? Are you saying that as the game become more playable and the content more engaging that the converted ratio of "pledgers" or "backers" never grew along with the funding and player engagement of streaming twitch/youtubers show?

    Is this financial and player engagement growth out of thin air?

    How do you explain the growth of Subscribers along the years as shown in the financial reports?

    Last edited by MrAnderson; 2020-07-23 at 08:18 PM.

  14. #10874
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    What 50% ratio "back in the day" ? What day? Is data immutable now?
    It's an example. I based the example on the 50% ratio that was confirmed back in the day when people wanted to celebrate citizen milestones and wondered how many were actual backers.

    I also specifically wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    You can take the %-ratio and change it to whatever you want.
    Somehow I knew you'd get stuck on this part grasping at straws, which is why I posted that sentence specifically. It could be 40%, 30%, 60%, 70%. Provide a train of thought and evidence to support your claim based on the data you posted, period.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Are you saying that as the game become more playable and the content more engaging that the converted ratio of "pledgers" or "backers" never grew along with the funding and player engagement of streaming twitch/youtubers show?
    How can you ask this, when I specifically posted an example where number of backers grew no matter what the % actually is if CIG would pull the data?

    You're stalling, and it isn't working.

    Also, playable in this case is subjective. The game has tons of issues and is borderline unplayable for a lot of people. The broken mess of a game is covered neatly in the credible reddit post I put forward.

    Just because the game has more features now than before, it doesn't make it more playable.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Is this financial and player engagement growth out of thin air?
    Backers, whichever actual demographic they belong to, spent money on digital assets in the game. That's all we know period. If you make a claim about what the majority of backers think and feel, the burden of proof is on you.

    Now you're flailing and all of a sudden we're back years ago instead of today where your original claim rests.

    Number of backers has continously increased so it would make sense that subscribers also increased. You have no idea who is actually subbing and why. Back in the day it used to be to support shows, which maybe they want more of that.

    You made a very specific claim about a grand majority of backers today. How many % is that, even? 80%? You can't even put forward a solid base for 50% and what they think. My stance is that we don't know so to make claims like that is pure speculation.

    The bottom line is that you're out to make the game look good no matter what. I have to reach out and pull you down to reality. Chris also has use for someone like that too, by the way. You're my Chris and I'm your Erin.
    Last edited by Majestic12; 2020-07-23 at 08:52 PM.

  15. #10875
    Elemental Lord GreenJesus's Avatar
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    Oh, yes. An MMO that can't even host 50 people in a stable manner, with only half of its mechanics put in and none of them in a complete manner would truly be considered a full game.
    Honestly, I think Star Citizen is a scam, but I had to laugh at this one because WoW completely fails by this metric. Can barely have a 20 vs 20 battle in the world without the server taking a huge shit. Ever try doing the brawl Tarren Mill vs Southshore? Literally a powerpoint presentation.

  16. #10876
    Must say, as someone whos invested quite a bit into this game, this thread is quite fun to follow.

    On one side you have people who obviously havent played SC in a few years, still calling it a tech demo.
    On the other side, you have people like Kenn who tries to sell the game as if his life depended on it.

    Both sides going to the extreme just to win an argument on the internet.


    The way I see it, this game is in the same state that Sea of Thieves was at launch. Playable, but extremely dry when it comes to actual content. But you're still able to have fun in the game, its all about what you do ingame, and the community you play it with.

    Take bognogus for example. Hardcore Elite D streamer, had serious doubts about SC and all the stuff you guys are talking about in here. But when he actually took a chance and played during the freeflight, he was instantly hooked and has pretty much been streaming it non-stop with his community ever since, going for almost a year-ish now.
    On the other hand you have streamers like Nmplol who wants to have fun in the game, but cant really make it all work because of all the bugs and whatnot, leaving him to play a few days per patch before he gets tired and calls it a day... or quarter. (Like most of us I guess)

    Anyways, most of the backers I know are just chilling, waiting for new stuff to get implemented. Obviously annoyed at all the delays, but still fairly relaxed about the whole situation. SQ42 is pretty much the deciding factor for the lot of us here, what happens with and after the launch of SQ42 will either quell of fuel the fire.

    When it comes to the money I spent, I dont really give it much thought. I went into this project fully aware that the money could be wasted, so that part doesnt really bother me. I will say though, I've gotten decent value out of the money I spent so far. Obviously not what I expected years ago, but still content, all things considered. Not really any alternatives out there. (I've played NMS, and got 1800hrs in ED)

    Will my dreams be realized though? I guess we just have to wait and see. But the progress has picked up some pace the last few years, so theres still hope.

  17. #10877
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Honestly, I think Star Citizen is a scam, but I had to laugh at this one because WoW completely fails by this metric. Can barely have a 20 vs 20 battle in the world without the server taking a huge shit. Ever try doing the brawl Tarren Mill vs Southshore? Literally a powerpoint presentation.
    Dingus: "What you doing mate"
    Johny: "A cake Dingus, A cake!"
    -takes a look-
    Dingus: "All I see is water, flour and sugar Johny! That's no Cake!"
    Johny: "!?!?"


    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    It's an example. I based the example on the 50% ratio that was confirmed back in the day when people wanted to celebrate citizen milestones and wondered how many were actual backers.
    What example? What back in the day? You're the one who's been reaching and trying to cope with the frustration for years now. Ever since you gotten mad and refunded. It's not a problem of CIG or Star Citizen at all. You're just angry and frustrated that your dreamy expectations weren't met.

    There's no better overall proof of any company's success than it's yearly revenue. And since CIG has been in business for years and having record years, with a product that rely's on consumer satisfaction it's hard to believe that you're still desperately trying to push the narrative that somehow a couple of disgruntled and disillusioned space nerds are a bigger or of the same proportion than the satisfied backers who have increasingly been giving the company 30$Millions, 40$Millions, 50$Millions per year.

    The project started in October 2012 and in the end of 2015 it reached 100$Millions in funding. In the end of 2018 it reached 200$Millions and 300$Millions in June 2020.

    Does this seems like a project is loosing backers or consumers trust?
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Are you suggesting that the money stream is supported by exclusively old backers? That's crazy!
    Why not just own it up and accept that you were a victim of your own naivety and that Star Citizen will never be what you've dreamed of and move on.
    There's so many other space games that can help you forget your high-school love that is Star Citizen. There's a whole world out there with plenty of other games to let you free of your frustrations. Elite: Dangerous and it's amazing 1:1 scale star system with aliens to kill and carriers to lan, No Man Sky with it's billions of multi-coloured planets and fauna to research! Space Engeniers, Dual Universe and Starbase with infinite possibilities to explore. So many finished, polished and released games that keep getting updates and improving and yet you choose to spend your time hating on something you have no control of and looking desperate in the process.

    It's like the biggest and stupidest pit any disgruntled gamer can fall into. Wasting time being miserable with games they don't like instead of moving on and enjoying all the other fun opportunities out there!

    It's really that simple !



    Just gotta get over those feeellllzzzz!

    New Evo Build coming right uP! Cyaaaaaaaaaaaa!
    Last edited by MrAnderson; 2020-07-23 at 10:16 PM.

  18. #10878
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    SC is building a game with 600 that would take any other company 2000 plus although it may be done a little faster with 3 times more staff, so development pace is more than reasonable. SC atm is more than the equivelant of 2 games.
    I know I'm a few pages late, but [citation needed].

    You can't just say things, Kenn.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Hint: No point in raging about things you cant control
    No one in this thread is raging, but you keep saying things like this. I really don't get it.

    You can't just say things.

  19. #10879
    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    I know I'm a few pages late, but [citation needed].




    Good luck proof-counting all the developers working on those tittles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    No one in this thread is raging, but you keep saying things like this. I really don't get it.
    You can't just say things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    This is an outrage. I don't understand why you are not feeling it.
    Last edited by MrAnderson; 2020-07-23 at 10:12 PM.

  20. #10880
    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    No one in this thread is raging, but you keep saying things like this. I really don't get it.

    You can't just say things.
    I mean they've been doing it for pages and pages now. Anyone that is a detractor of the game is a hater, is raging, has no life and so on.

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