1. #11701
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone Jack View Post
    A small percentage? The game is currently PvP-focused, with the only real emergent content being PvP. With combat balance as off as it is, ToW is a very much needed tool for a game that is in perpetual Alpha, and whose primary focus is on selling more ships and vehicles; all of which need constant rebalancing as new weapons and, eventually (hopefully?), as new ship systems are enabled. To ignore this is to ignore the core problem with CIG; then again, look at that I'm responding to.
    Its not currently PvP focused, i rarely ever encounter another player that is engaging in PvP, ToWs only purpose is balancing which thats what the devs use it for, it might be fun for a short while but it will get old just as games like CoD get boring fast, it will probably make PvP in the PU even less likely so can be a good or bad thing.

    Balancing is subjective as there are ships that are meant for combat and ones of which are not.
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  2. #11702
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    just as games like CoD get boring fast
    Fuckin' ... what? CoD is incredibly popular because of its fast, intense PvP gameplay.

    What? Kenn, you're wild, man.

  3. #11703
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Did too!

    And we all know how Diablo 3 turned out at release. They had to redo the economy and balance, and itemization. You know the whole late game. That's why you must release the playable as soon as possible.

    If things take longer than you think they do - that's either a lack of competence (don't know how to assess the work required) or bad management (don't account for the extra time that might be needed).

    And it is true with very few exceptions - it's hard to find a video game that hasn't been delayed. Because of incompetence and bad management. And anyone who excuses the delay by "that's how it always is" - is incompetent and a bad manager.
    Every single Blizzard game was "late". For years they've developed with the mantra of "when it's ready" in all their games. WoW and Diablo are not exceptions they are rules that Blizzard thrived for. Quality above all. And there isin't one single quality and game worth talking about that didn't faced development hurdles like delays, changes of scope and re-doings and over budgeting.

    To get really quality titles in game development or any creative medium there isn't one single "formula" that will automatically make you a great amazing game. If that was so Google and Amazon would have hired ALL the DEV's they wanted and followed that "formula" and could be pumping out success hit after success hit and make bank. But reality has shown us that it doesn't work like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone Jack View Post
    All the roles you listed out can be performed by a single person, it'll just take more time and money as the scope increases. Additionally, many of those roles you listed become redundant the smaller the team is. For example, one artist can do everything you listed under art, and is not uncommon. All of those leadership roles can easily be one guy in charge of a small team, or it can be the one guy making the game by himself. There are a good number of one-man teams making games, the only thing making it prohibitive for a single person to create a AAA game is time and money (since AAA is typically determined by the size of the marketing budget, not the scope/quality of the game). I do not think it implausible for a single person to make a Call of Duty, Dragon Age, or Souls game, especially if they are licensing the engine (which is not uncommon for either Indie or AAA development), it's just not practical.
    They can't, for the simple fact that one human can't learn all the skills needed to make at the quality expected for a AAA production.
    You're underestimation of the skill and work needed to pull of a big AAA production just shows that you have no clue about what you're talking bout.
    We're not talking about making clones, were talking about creating something from the ground-up.

    There's been some SOLO projects that succeeded like Stardew Valley but many fizzle out like Limit Theory did but they're always small productions with indie expectations and nothing close to AAA production quality or expectations.

  4. #11704
    TOW's purpose was not just for balancing. That is nonsense. It was going to be an alternative game module like Arena Commander and Star Marine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    Fuckin' ... what? CoD is incredibly popular because of its fast, intense PvP gameplay.

    What? Kenn, you're wild, man.
    Yes. The fun is in the gameplay. Unfortunately Star Marine lacks that fun and people get bored fast.

  5. #11705
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Xenothreat event is going in full swing.
    40 person server cap. Full swing you say? Sure if you count removing content and lowering an already comically low server cap. 40. Lol.

  6. #11706
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Every single Blizzard game was "late".
    For the unintentionally obtuse - I am saying that Blizzard has lots of incompetent devs and bad managers. Like any other business with that many employees.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2021 - that's two-zero-two-one, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of masked sissies.

  7. #11707
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    You do realise there will be a limit on what technology can actually handle, but battles with 100-200 ships shouldnt provide too much of a problem, ship combat is only a small portion of what you can actually do in the game anyway, large scale ship battles are always a rare occurance.
    I'm not a server tech so maybe I'm wrong but feel free to correct me, this is just what others have told me: the issue with scaling up large pvp battles like this is that the server load grows exponentially.

    Let's say you have 10 players hitting one ability per second. That means, each second, the server gets 10 inputs and it needs to send to each of the 10 players, so 100 outputs.

    Now if you have 100 players each hitting 1 ability, that's 100 messages that need to be sent out to 100 people - 10,000 outputs. So 10X as many people means 100X the server capability.

    Again, I know this is probably grossly oversimplified and there's all sorts of optimization that can be done, but it's my understand that this is still an exponential growth problem.

  8. #11708
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I'm not a server tech so maybe I'm wrong but feel free to correct me, this is just what others have told me: the issue with scaling up large pvp battles like this is that the server load grows exponentially.

    Let's say you have 10 players hitting one ability per second. That means, each second, the server gets 10 inputs and it needs to send to each of the 10 players, so 100 outputs.

    Now if you have 100 players each hitting 1 ability, that's 100 messages that need to be sent out to 100 people - 10,000 outputs. So 10X as many people means 100X the server capability.

    Again, I know this is probably grossly oversimplified and there's all sorts of optimization that can be done, but it's my understand that this is still an exponential growth problem.
    Massive battles would be spread out across multiple servers and ships would constantly be switching between those servers depending on distance, the current version of the game if it was only loading ships should have no issues with 100-200 ship battles atm, the main problem the servers have currently is they have the whole stanton system to operate along with the players on 1 single server.

    A 200 ship battle would be split up into lets say 4 servers so each server is only handling 50 ships, tech does have limits and we will find out what those are when the server techs are being implemented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    Fuckin' ... what? CoD is incredibly popular because of its fast, intense PvP gameplay.

    What? Kenn, you're wild, man.
    CoD and other BR type games are boring to me, its not my type of gameplay its just plain boring and only something i do on the odd occasion, SC is game with an option to PvP not based on it but gives you options to choose what you want to do.

    I didnt say it wasnt popular because some ppl enjoy mindless gameplay of repeating the same thing over and over, but as a shooting game that mindless gameplay is bland.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-02-06 at 06:51 PM.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  9. #11709
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Massive battles would be spread out across multiple servers and ships would constantly be switching between those servers depending on distance, the current version of the game if it was only loading ships should have no issues with 100-200 ship battles atm, the main problem the servers have currently is they have the whole stanton system to operate along with the players on 1 single server.
    Nice futurespeak there about what the game might be able to do some day but hasn't been able to do for 9 years. Doesn't matter, the game can't have more than 40 people playing it now. No 100-200 ship battles happening. You love to talk about what the game might be able to do, never about the limitations it has now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    A 200 ship battle would be split up into lets say 4 servers so each server is only handling 50 ships, tech does have limits and we will find out what those are when the server techs are being implemented.
    We know what the limits are now, 40 people down from 50. Woo. Such MMO.

  10. #11710
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    They can't, for the simple fact that one human can't learn all the skills needed to make at the quality expected for a AAA production.
    You're underestimation of the skill and work needed to pull of a big AAA production just shows that you have no clue about what you're talking bout.
    We're not talking about making clones, were talking about creating something from the ground-up.

    There's been some SOLO projects that succeeded like Stardew Valley but many fizzle out like Limit Theory did but they're always small productions with indie expectations and nothing close to AAA production quality or expectations.
    First off, AAA does not mean quality; let's get that out of the way right now. Second, if we're eliminating "clones", then we're eliminating a ton of AAA games right off the bat. One person can make a FPS on the level of Call of Duty or Halo, it just takes more time. One person can make a 3D RPG like Dragon Age or a Souls game, it just takes more time. If we say that clones don't count, then we're eliminating games like Diablo 3, Half Life 2, GTA V, World of Warcraft, all of which are "clones". If we say that the game needs to be created "from the ground up", then that eliminates even more games like Fortnite (Unreal), World of Warcraft (Warcraft III), and even Star Citizen/SQ42 (CryEngine), because they're all using pre-existing engines that were not created specifically for the game being made.

    As for my experience, I've worked in the industry (3d modeling, character and environmental texturing, character rigging and animation, level design, lighting, UI, scripting, testing, and, sadly, voice acting ) and know exactly what goes into making a AAA game (Our team was a mere 6 people total but was funded by a large publisher with a large budget; thus AAA). And yes, one person can learn the skills required to make a "AAA quality" game, it just takes time. I did all of the art stuff in my 20s, in my 30s I designed and implemented network security, today I'm a programmer. It may take one person 40 years to release their game, instead of the 4 it takes for a team of developers, but it is possible; it's just not practical.

  11. #11711
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Nice futurespeak there about what the game might be able to do some day but hasn't been able to do for 9 years. Doesn't matter, the game can't have more than 40 people playing it now. No 100-200 ship battles happening. You love to talk about what the game might be able to do, never about the limitations it has now.

    - - - Updated - - -



    We know what the limits are now, 40 people down from 50. Woo. Such MMO.
    And as usualy your being as ignorant as possible, you like to ignore the server is handling several hundred AI, operating AI ships, stations and a million other processes so not just what the players are using, if a server can do all that currently and have the occasional 100 ships currently active on the server right now then it will have no issues with the performance of just handling a fleet of ships on its own when the server is sharded on multiple servers spreading the loads around.

    The MMO part of the game has not even been implemented yet so try again, as usual you have no idea what your talking about, its not really any less of an MMO than whats currently around anyway as most of the time your not playing with more than 20-30 ppl.
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  12. #11712
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    And as usualy your being as ignorant as possible, you like to ignore the server is handling several hundred AI, operating AI ships, stations and a million other processes so not just what the players are using, if a server can do all that currently and have the occasional 100 ships currently active on the server right now then it will have no issues with the performance of just handling a fleet of ships on its own when the server is sharded on multiple servers spreading the loads around.

    The MMO part of the game has not even been implemented yet so try again, as usual you have no idea what your talking about, its not really any less of an MMO than whats currently around anyway as most of the time your not playing with more than 20-30 ppl.
    Ah yes calling someone ignorant, classy. I don't care how many AI are in the fucking game. Reduce the number of AI and let more PLAYERS play the damn game. 40 people for a MMO is PATHETIC. Period. Bullshit the mmo part has not been implemented. It is not a solo player game and is a supposed MMO, just has a server cap that is a joke. Even searching for "is star citizen a mmo" brings up their own site which labels it as a mmo. I'll take their word on defining the game over yours.

  13. #11713
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Ah yes calling someone ignorant, classy. I don't care how many AI are in the fucking game. Reduce the number of AI and let more PLAYERS play the damn game. 40 people for a MMO is PATHETIC. Period. Bullshit the mmo part has not been implemented. It is not a solo player game and is a supposed MMO, just has a server cap that is a joke. Even searching for "is star citizen a mmo" brings up their own site which labels it as a mmo. I'll take their word on defining the game over yours.
    More ppl in a server wouldnt change anything anyway, players would still be doing the same as they are doing in a 40 player server as they would do in a 120 player server and you still might not see other players that often, the game is going to be mostly populated by npcs which will also generate missions for the players, so AI is really important for the game.

    The game is being developed simple as that, until they have everything inplace they have no need to increase the server capacity, smoother gameplay is much more important than more players on a server.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  14. #11714
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    More ppl in a server wouldnt change anything anyway, players would still be doing the same as they are doing in a 40 player server as they would do in a 120 player server and you still might not see other players that often, the game is going to be mostly populated by npcs which will also generate missions for the players, so AI is really important for the game.
    Oh so you know what the players would do as well? You mean people wouldn't form up to try and do some ship combats? People wouldn't try and fight other players and cause some problems? Nah they'd just do the same thing if there was 40 people as if there was oh wait you put a cap as well, 120 now? Such MMO. This 9+ year game cannot handle players because it has too much room for AI's that love to T-Pose. Got it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The game is being developed simple as that, until they have everything inplace they have no need to increase the server capacity, smoother gameplay is much more important than more players on a server.
    I notice you quickly dropped the 'mmo part of the game has not even been implemented' comment once I provided proof that what you said was wrong.

    That game is being developed is as true now as it was 9 years ago. You think there is no need to increase server capacity and I strongly disagree. Your opinion means as much an anyone's else but you try to push yours as truth or facts. Big difference.

  15. #11715
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    I notice you quickly dropped the 'mmo part of the game has not even been implemented' comment once I provided proof that what you said was wrong.
    Whoa, be fair. This is actually a big improvement for him. Usually he just fabricates some bullshit and talks over you.

  16. #11716
    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    Whoa, be fair. This is actually a big improvement for him. Usually he just fabricates some bullshit and talks over you.
    Hah you're right, silly of me to expect a "Yeah, you are right" from him.

  17. #11717
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I'm not a server tech so maybe I'm wrong but feel free to correct me, this is just what others have told me: the issue with scaling up large pvp battles like this is that the server load grows exponentially.

    Let's say you have 10 players hitting one ability per second. That means, each second, the server gets 10 inputs and it needs to send to each of the 10 players, so 100 outputs.

    Now if you have 100 players each hitting 1 ability, that's 100 messages that need to be sent out to 100 people - 10,000 outputs. So 10X as many people means 100X the server capability.

    Again, I know this is probably grossly oversimplified and there's all sorts of optimization that can be done, but it's my understand that this is still an exponential growth problem.
    It is, but it can be overcome. It was actually one of the selling points of Stadia-exclusive games (which has fallen apart).

    In your 100 example, consider the server only sends the outputs to 10 selected players, that is 1000 messages. Each of those 10 players then send the messages to 10 another players, making it 100x10 messages for any single bottleneck at most, but now all 100 players have the updated state. You trade latency for scale. It might not be practical today (and worse yet, with cheaters, it's unlikely to ever be implemented successfully), but there are ways to do it. The stadia games promised this and could effectively deliver, because their servers shouldn't be able to be tampered by players (so the middlemen couldn't change the messages and redundancy would be unnecessary) and because their servers are physically collocated, so latency is minimal, making the tradeoff a no-brainer.

  18. #11718
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Oh so you know what the players would do as well? You mean people wouldn't form up to try and do some ship combats? People wouldn't try and fight other players and cause some problems? Nah they'd just do the same thing if there was 40 people as if there was oh wait you put a cap as well, 120 now? Such MMO. This 9+ year game cannot handle players because it has too much room for AI's that love to T-Pose. Got it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I notice you quickly dropped the 'mmo part of the game has not even been implemented' comment once I provided proof that what you said was wrong.

    That game is being developed is as true now as it was 9 years ago. You think there is no need to increase server capacity and I strongly disagree. Your opinion means as much an anyone's else but you try to push yours as truth or facts. Big difference.
    There is a crime system inplace, there are many players who like to be lawful and not just do random PvP and it still doesnt change how the game would play currently no matter how many players are on a server, players will do the content they enjoy regardless of server limit.

    Its a fact that the systems needed to really make it an MMO are not inplace, noone here has even stated the current version is a proper MMO but there is still adequate ways to group and play with your friends, so no you dont have any ability to prove anyone wrong.

    Server capacity is not the issue, its what the servers currently have to do that limits what can be done with 1 single server, smoother gameplay is more important than more players on a server and thats a fact, its a space game your not supposed to see loads of players all over the place anyway unless its a heavily populated area.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  19. #11719
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    There is a crime system inplace, there are many players who like to be lawful and not just do random PvP and it still doesnt change how the game would play currently no matter how many players are on a server, players will do the content they enjoy regardless of server limit.
    You know except for massive ship combat because you can't have enough people on the server to do so. But don't worry SC gonna keep selling ships that require multiple people!

    You can call it what you want but it is a MMO, it has been marketed to people as a type of MMO no matter the fancy words used. The wikis refer to it as an mmo, searching for "is star citizen a mmo" brings it up as one, even the blurb from their own site when searched has it mentioning MMO. I don't care what YOU think it is and what systems you think need to be in place to consider it one. You don't matter when it comes to what they have said.

    It is a mmo and a very bad one at that. 40 player server cap, but plz buy our ships that take 10-20 people.

  20. #11720
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    You know except for massive ship combat because


    Yet you still haven't posted a video of a massive ship combat from other space game that's better than Star Citizen ones.

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