[Megathread] Star Citizen

[Dhrizzle]

Y'all, let's take a bit of a step back and chill. This topic is getting discussed to death and there's nothing happening with it other than going in circles. Maybe it's time to realize that nobody is changing minds and leave this be for a bit until there's something new to discuss. Thanks y'all, stay fluffy.

Sorry, last time I will mention it.

[Jastall]

Well, at the rate it is going, SC will eclipse Duke Nukem Forever as the longest development cycle for any game. At least that game released. Took 15 years but it released.

Not a very flattering comparison for Star Citizen.

Also at least Duke Nukem was bounced around between studios as an excuse, it wasn't in active development for 15 years. SC has been worked on by the same studio from the onset and from the looks of it will easily blow past the 15 years line.

[Easo]

Most of the playerbase is PC, of 1.3 million that bought horizons only 200k are from console players, steam charts are around 9k players so even if that was the same on both consoles thats still a very small playbase actually still playing.

SC has already stated it has 30k players on average each day with 100k each day when an event is active.

While there sadly is nothing like Steam Charts for SC, thanks. ED number count is as you said.
See, was it so hard to make all answers like this, at least?

[Nerraw]

While there sadly is nothing like Steam Charts for SC, thanks. ED number count is as you said.
See, was it so hard to make all answers like this, at least?

Keep in mind that ED is also on EGS and Frontier's own store, so those numbers are not included. Not to mention it's on both Microsoft's and Sony's consoles as well.

[Easo]

Keep in mind that ED is also on EGS and Frontier's own store, so those numbers are not included. Not to mention it's on both Microsoft's and Sony's consoles as well.

So... potentially much closer to the 30k of SC (for which we do not have access to see it).

[1001]

No. SC's numbers are for daily logins. Elite's numbers are for peak concurrency which is probably less than 1/10th of their daily logins.

[Littlechamp]

Just saw a post on sc forum that server meshing is being done by a company which isn't even a year old and lacking numbers.
Turbulent used to do the SC website and forums which were really bad and now they will do the star systems and some features too.

Just LOL

[Xeenith]

this after crying to much for doing everything themselves, lol ^^

[Val the Moofia Boss]

New ship has been announced for sale: The RSI Scorpio. It looks strikingly similar to the Starfury from Babylon 5. No engines on the wings, though. Guess the Scorpio is going for the X-Wing thing of having laser cannons extended out on the wings.

Star Citizen's RSI Scorpio



Babylon 5's Starfury


- - - Updated - - -

IIRC, the most overt ship references are:

• RSI Merlin - Viper (Battle Star Galactica)

• RSI Scorpio - Starfury (Babylon 5) and X Wing (Star Wars original trilogy)

• Buccaneer - Z-95 Headhunter (Star Wars EU)

• Khartu-AL - Starfury (Babylon 5)

• San'tok.yai - Starfury (Babylon 5)

• Prolwer - Copperhead (Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within)

• Reliant - Jedi T-6 Shuttle (Star Wars the Clone Wars)

• Carrack - Prometheus (Prometheus)

• Reclaimer - Serenity (Firefly) and Prometheus (Prometheus)

• Polaris - generic Elite ship design (like the Anaconda) and Garencieres (Gundam Unicorn)

• Banu Merchantman - Bebop (Cowboy Bebop)

• Bengal Carrier - Galactica (Battlestar Galactica reboot)

• Retribution - Venator Class Star Destroyer (Star Wars prequels)

• Vanduul Kingship - Cylon Basestar (Battlestar Galactica)

[Edge-]

the X-Wing thing

This is where my head went. It looks similar to an X-Wing without the nose. Smaller guns on the wings and I imagine missiles or something in the center underneath the cockpit (like the proton torpedoes). Not a bad thing, it's a pretty slick lookin ship.

[1001]

Just saw a post on sc forum that server meshing is being done by a company which isn't even a year old and lacking numbers.
Turbulent used to do the SC website and forums which were really bad and now they will do the star systems and some features too.

Just LOL

I happen to think the Turbulent setup is dodgy. Outsourcing to a company you have a 25% stake in but has no experience in that field sends all sorts of alarm bells off in my head.

[Littlechamp]

I happen to think the Turbulent setup is dodgy. Outsourcing to a company you have a 25% stake in but has no experience in that field sends all sorts of alarm bells off in my head.

Agree.

No idea about Canada tax system, maybe they found a way to evade taxes or they wanted a lamb to the slaughter for server meshing delays or not happening at all.

I am pasting the sources shared on that forum:
"Turbulent Game Services continued working on server meshing, onboarding more team members along the way. They also delivered the first demo of a fleet management system currently deployed on internal development environments. The configuration service, responsible for distributing client configurations to game clients, was also finalized."
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/c...ort-March-2021

And then;

The team will work on new tools to both enhance and expand plans currently in place, including creating new features and star systems for Star Citizen. Additionally, it will grow to up to 100 developers in the future.
https://wccftech.com/turbulent-found...itizen-studio/

And another poster replied about the studio:
"
I dunno, I checked their case study page: https://turbulent.ca/our-craft/

Their SC page: https://turbulent.ca/craft/star-citizen/

And their instagram: https://www.instagram.com/turbulent.ca/

Doesn't look like a huge studio...

And all their previous work is on alternative apps to core services, more UI oriented than core technologies.

I'm super confused... "

[Rennadrel]

Agree.

No idea about Canada tax system, maybe they found a way to evade taxes or they wanted a lamb to the slaughter for server meshing delays or not happening at all.

I am pasting the sources shared on that forum:
"Turbulent Game Services continued working on server meshing, onboarding more team members along the way. They also delivered the first demo of a fleet management system currently deployed on internal development environments. The configuration service, responsible for distributing client configurations to game clients, was also finalized."
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/c...ort-March-2021

And then;

The team will work on new tools to both enhance and expand plans currently in place, including creating new features and star systems for Star Citizen. Additionally, it will grow to up to 100 developers in the future.
https://wccftech.com/turbulent-found...itizen-studio/

And another poster replied about the studio:
"
I dunno, I checked their case study page: https://turbulent.ca/our-craft/

Their SC page: https://turbulent.ca/craft/star-citizen/

And their instagram: https://www.instagram.com/turbulent.ca/

Doesn't look like a huge studio...

And all their previous work is on alternative apps to core services, more UI oriented than core technologies.

I'm super confused... "

Software developers in Canada get paid a ton less than they do in Silicon Valley, which is why most of ours move to the USA. A lead developer here is around 100k salary at the top end of the pay scale. The problem is that most of our best developers leave and so companies wind up importing talent from other countries to do the jobs because the pay scale is so far behind companies in the US due to higher business taxes and whatnot.

[Dhrizzle]

The Starfury is such a well designed space fighter, such a beautiful melding of form and function. IIRC NASA told J. Michael Straczynski they'd like to use the design for future space craft.

[banmebaby]

Y'all, let's take a bit of a step back and chill. This topic is getting discussed to death and there's nothing happening with it other than going in circles. Maybe it's time to realize that nobody is changing minds and leave this be for a bit until there's something new to discuss. Thanks y'all, stay fluffy.

“This” topic? If you are going to put a stop on it just because it has been discussed to death and nobody is changing their minds, you might as well just shut down the entire thread, because that’s all that’s been happening for the last 600 pages.

Anyway, since my last ban just ended, I hope you don’t get too upset if I just re-address a little thing, it will be fairly long, so please be gentle with me this time around

I have yet to be proven that anything i have said is even remotely classed as BS, im not going to bother with responses if they cant be bothered to back up what they say, if they claim BS and provide something at least tangable then and only then will they get an appropriate reply.

I see that what was previously posted just wasn’t good enough.

Luckily for you, I have plenty of time to kill during work hours, and since MMO-Champion has a pretty amazing search tool (honestly, the only praise worthy damn thing in the entire place), as long as I keep hitting the right key words, the entertainment is far superior than watching ads on my mobile games.

Now, since you’ve pretty much asked for it, I hope you don’t mind taking that little challenge and adding a little extra to what has been previously shared, I know you’ll read it and just pretend it never happened, like you always do when confronted with any sort of evidence, but that’s fine, if nothing else, we’ll just have a good laugh and maybe the next time one of these topics pop-up, someone else can just point you in the right direction, have fun =)



Topic: “The Bullshit”
TL,DR Ver.: He doesn’t need to back anything up… and that’s pretty much it. YOU fucking do it.

I dont need to back anything up, if you claiming its BS your the one that needs to actually needs to back up what you say, you cant claim something is a lie and not even give at least some small effort in attemting to prove that what you say isnt just your opinion. At least do some research and then you wouldnt prove yourself to be a fool.

If you claim something is BS then its all on you to prove your opinion is correct, until you do that your just being a complete fool with nothing to back up anything you say.

stop your BS when your not backed up by any facts

talk BS about a game you dont even like or have any intention of playing.

Your sole reason for being in the thread is to talk BS as much as possible

They like to ignore what is already been done by star citizen to find anyway to talk BS about it.

they are just here to do anything they can to talk BS

A game is ready when its ready, your just choosing to talk BS in a game in development

you need to stop with the BS.

stop with all this BS claims with no evidence backing it up...You always claim CiG said this with nothing to back it up.

your just talking BS about things you have no clue about.

you just make up the BS as you go dont you

quit with the BS

You do like to talk BS dont you, simple fact is i dont care either way

You indeed talk so much BS you dont even know yourself what your talking about, they have every right to change the game if they want

You have been here 2 mins are already have proved you speak nothing but BS

No game is really ever complete so you should stop the BS when you know its reality.

Never seen so much BS before in my life as your talking about

thats an actual fact that WoW just struggles to deal with too many players in one area so dont talk BS when its backed up by every event that forces large amounts of players in the same area causes serious issues with lagg.

Whats BS is what you seem to think is the actual truth when it is not

Stop trying to talk BS about a temporary player cap limit.

Star citizen has not scammed anyone and thats a fact, the current version of the game is better than most space games available including elite dangerous, the game is already a success and has not gone wrong at all, so your just talking BS about things you know nothing about.

What relevance is there to how many players can play on one server, there is still a game to test with more than plenty to do in it, you keep talking BS about things that are not even an issue, if you have not played the game your opinion is just BS and means nothing since you dont understand anything at all about the game.

have you run out of things to try and talk BS about so your stuck on something that noone really cares about since most of the time you wont even play with more than a small group of ppl anyway no matter what MMO you play.

20k players can play star citizen at the same time, its irrelevant that they are not all on the same server, its just fact directly from a lead developer, so dont talk BS just like all the others.

The server tech thats similar to it already exists in dual universe so stop talking BS about it being magical tech.

so please stop talking BS.

Your the one with the constant BS, it takes years to build a company up and building everything the game needs from nothing

They didnt even mention a release date on the SQ42 or the PU, the only thing that may of happened was a small section of SQ42 to be available in 2016, it was never going to be fully released so your just talking BS

And you seem to just ignore everything, a year is not a release date and even if there was a plan to release something a game in development can change anything it needs to, unless they say an exact date and state it as a release its not a release date simple as that so enough with the BS.

Sandbox MMOs are much easier to develop, space games are very hard to do right so its not BS, otherwise there would be a ton more space games than we have currently.

The only BS is coming from yourself SQ42 has never had a release date for the full version of the game, even the kickstarter date is irrelevant

As usual you keep talking BS, simple fact is there is a playable version of the game now and whats available does work.

The fact is they did change the game and never once stated they had all the funds they needed, the stretch goals were about making a larger game not about how much it would cost to make it, so much BS coming from your mouth.

Beazy talks BS and has nothing to back him up.

why dont you not embaress yourself by talking BS

it seems your only in here to talk BS

i dont whine and talk BS about games in development.

The BS comes from yourself, what i said is backed up by actual facts.

Why dont you try and back up the BS for once instead of posting nonsense.

Thats exactly how it works, if you claim something is incorrect you have to prove it first. If you cant be bothered to back up your claim saying something is wrong you dont deserve a response at all.

Topic: “The Release Date”
TL,DR Ver.: It isn’t released. It has been releases years ago. It won’t ever be released. It isn’t released yet. It was already released. It will be released when its ready. NO GAME IS EVER FUCKING RELEASED! Got it?! Good.

CiG have stated it since the beginning that they wont release a game unless they are happy with it, they will not sacrifice things to just release it for the sake of it.

there has been a released version of the game for 5 years

no game is a full released game, a game is always missing something, there is a version of the game that has been out for years, it doesnt matter if it is missing certain systems that would be in the official launch of the game or not, fact is there is a game you can play.

The game is not released yet so it doesnt matter what the server cap is

There is a released game its called the PU, doesnt matter if its not complete its still a game you can play now.

Would you rather Star Citizen release with only the basics of gameplay and have no depth or wait longer to have a more complete game with everything it should have from the start.

SC is an MMO so you tell me what MMO is complete and never gets new features or updates unless the game is essentially dead, in reality SC doesnt need a release date because at a certain point the PU will have everything it needs to be considered ready.

Topic: “Elite DanGArus”
TL,DR Ver.: Its good. It’s half good. It’s terrible. It’s still good. Just don’t compare it to SC.

comparing ED to SC is like comparing apples to oranges.

Mainly comparing SC to other similar games like ED, SC has a long way to go but even with just one system its still much more indepth that ED

ED is just a shell of a game in comparison.

current alpha is miles better than ED and thats a similar game

Elite Dangerous, more to do in SC now in one system than the whole of what ED has

there is equal or even more gameplay currently in game than ED the only other game remotely similar.

Yes ED offers most if not all the features SC will offer when its ready

i have seen no such evidence that ED has things SC wont have even with many hours played ingame

There is more to do in SC than ED and thats a fact

Fact is SC offers more than ED does

I enjoyed Elite for the 100 plus hours i played it

ED is a good game

ED is a half decent game but it is massively lacking in depth and meaning

ED is a bland game, i have experienced all it has to offer and it holds no interest

ED exploration is boring and at the simplest level of gameplay.

EDs flight and travel is terrible compared to what SC currently has ingame and no immersion at all.

Everything in ED is basic

skill is not even a factor in ED its just too simple

ED just doesnt feel like a space game at all.

ED is just a bland forgetful experience.

ED is boring and has no content

ED lacks any sort of depth it loses interest very quickly

I played around 100 hours of ED and it gives you no reason to keep playing even after a short amount of time playing

I have over 100 hours of ED gameplay i know how bland and lacking the gameplay is in that game, and i know everything you can do in it and its not much.

Now ED is still a good game

Topic: “Dates”
TL,DR Ver.: The release dates are not release dates and even if they were they totally didn’t matter, and even if they did, it’s okay because everyone else does it to!

[Spoiler Alert]

2014: "It was originally announced for release in 2014 during the Kickstarter campaign"
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Citizen

2015: "Fall 2015 First Episode of Squadron 42 release"
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1GU....be&t=1h32m43s

2016: “SQ42 was announced originally in a Kickstarter campaign in 2012 together with Star Citizen. After the implementation of more Stretch goals (the last stretch goal was achieved 2014-11-10) the release was subsequently postponed. After CitizenCon in 2015, a new homepage "Answer the Call" showed the date 2016. At CitizenCon 2016 Roberts confirmed a delay of the game.”

https://i.ibb.co/zPPwHqD/2016.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/sq1VNQk/2016-2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/LJbwdL1/2016-3.png

https://starcitizen.tools/Squadron_42
http://media.kotaku.foxtrot.future.n...lease-date.png
https://web.archive.org/web/20161214...lease-date.png

2017: "During tonight's Citizencon livestream, Cloud Imperium Games announced that Squadron 42, Star Citizen's single player campaign, will not meet its 2016 release date."
https://i.ibb.co/PWRv7Dw/2017.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/WKC3CJc/2017-2.jpg
web.archive.org/web/20161106004215/https://robertsspaceindustries.com/squadron42
web.archive.org/web/20190103031332/https://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/10/10/star-citizen-single-player-campaign-delayed-into-2017

2020: “Cloud Imperium Games, the company behind the long-awaited space sim Star Citizen, have made a big announcement. Squadron 42, the single player offshoot of Star Citizen, is going to enter the beta stages some time in mid-2020.”
https://www.gosunoob.com/star-citize...nnounced-2020/
….
"You will of course notice that our target beta date for Squadron 42 has moved back by 12 weeks in today's roadmap update"
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...ths-to-q3-2020
….
“We will not be in beta this calendar year — that’s one thing I absolutely know,” Brian Chambers said in the video below. “And once we do have the dates that us internally and leadership and the team are confident that we have dates that we believe we can hit, with all the data we have together, we’ll share that to everybody as soon as we can.”
https://www.kotaku.com.au/2020/10/st...2-delay-again/

[/Spoiler Alert]

its at least 1 year away still but its more likely within the next 2 years

the game is most likely around 1 year away from PU alpha and most of us have been expecting that timeline as it is.

If it takes another 1-2 years to complete then so be it

the company was only founded in 2012 and work on the game didn't properly start till after the kickstarter so thats 2-3 years max with 1-2 years left until the game is released.

He didn't claim anything he just put an estimated date

when he did mention dates it was more of what he hopes things were going, thats why he doesnt say dates anymore, the game is in year 5 of development and looks on track for a 6-7 year release.

the game is far from overdue, if you actually realise the scope and detail of the game its very much on track for a 6-7 year release date, its currently at around year 5.

6 years development so far and the game has come leaps and bounds.

Simple fact is we are at year 8 of development so saying it is around a 10 year project is actually true no matter what you try and believe.

kickstarter release date was rendered void when the game changed back then and any dates chris said were just what he hoped it would of been ready for

target dates in a game in heavy development is just an estimated guideline

we already have a time of when to expect a beta of SQ42 Q2 2020

2020 Q1 is the expected timeline for alpha SQ42 and Q2 is the beta so apart from polish SQ42 should be completed

origional release dates very irrelevant back in 2012

we are around 1 year away from SQ 42 being released.

do you have some powers i dont know about seeing the future, SQ42 should be on schedule for beta by the end of next year so there will be a game being pretty much fully released around 1 year from now.

release dates were always pointless, they may have miss judged how easy things were to create or to get working.

everyone knew what chris was like when it came to developing games, he wants to do too much, so if you really put any stock into any release dates then thats on you

Its still not a release date, and even if it was they have a right to change things to suit the game as they want

A release date is irrelevant if a game isnt ready

It was not a release date it was just a possability

all origional dates were made irrelevant.

Your the one being ignorant since there actually has been no release dates posted at all

you can deny it all you want it still not a release date, and all dates in an open development game are subject to change

a release date can be changed as many times as the company wants

The have not stated any dates since way early in development so there is no dates other than SQ42 beta to look at

No company ever meets all its dates it sets itself and no they didnt miss all of them thats just a fact.

They never said the game was going to release at any date beyond what the kickstarter said

they have never actually gave an actual release date plain and simple

The didnt market any release dates

They never published a release date that is fact.

They had never given a specific release date for it, just some rough estimates

There has been no official release date for the full verion of any of the games

They didnt even mention a release date on the SQ42 or the PU

Its still not a release date, its more just an advertisement to buy the game, a release date is a date where you know the exact date something is coming, and even if it were they still can change thier mind

Still not a date is it, in what universe is saying a year an actual date for release

a year is not a release date and even if there was a plan to release something a game in development can change anything it needs to

a year is not a date is it, and even then the company can do whatever they want

any dates given during development are not official release dates until a full date has been set and everyone has clearly been told the game will release on x date, until you see a day/month/year date saying the game will release then any dates even mentioned are just placeholders.

No date is official until its an actual full date saying day/month/year, anything else is always just subject to change as required.

The only date that actually means anything is the day the game is released in full, nothing else before that matters in the slightest

The only BS is coming from yourself SQ42 has never had a release date for the full version of the game

Moving dates when required is pretty standard in the gaming industry

Topic: “Dev. start.”
TL,DR Ver.: Just couple of years ago, regardless the current year.

hes been working on this project since around 2011

development didn't properly start till early 2013

The game has only been in proper development for around 5 years

The company was not fully manned until 2017, full development has only been going on the past 2 years

in reality its been 7-8 years development which for a game of this scale is not really that long and within about a year SQ42 should be in the final polishing phase.

Topic: “Pay 2 Win”
TL,DR Ver.: Schrödinger 2 Win

In regards to pay 2 win there is no clear defintion

Pay to win means you can buy something that increases your power

Its not perfect but at least that money you pay for in SC gives you something useful

P2W is more about buying something with real money you cant get ingame.

P2W is irrelevant as the game is one not focused on PvP

The P2W is irrelevant as we dont know how the mechanics will work ingame

There are few MMOs without any aspect of P2W

im stating that there is an element of pay 2 win in most games

every game has some sort of p2w element in it

P2W is in every single game without exception

Its more like pay to skip because what do you win, just like every other MMO there is a way to use real money to skip things

most of the time its more like a pay to skip but if you can spend real money on a game, its still pay 2 win

just being able to buy the currency alone is enough to make a game have p2w, if you can buy anything that benefits your ingame character its pay 2 win

the game has to make money from as many avenues as possible but still its not pay to win

I didnt say there was no p2w at all in SC

If this doesn’t paint a good enough picture of the mental gymnastics that you are willing to do to keep feeding this extreme denial, I don’t know what does. Go ahead, support the project as much as you want, I hope that one day it becomes everything you dream of and we all get a new good ass game to play, but this shit you are doing, for your own sake, just stop, it’s just sad at this point.

If there is any other topic you guys want me to cover up, feel free to give me the heads up.

[Henako]

“This” topic? If you are going to put a stop on it just because it has been discussed to death and nobody is changing their minds, you might as well just shut down the entire thread, because that’s all that’s been happening for the last 600 pages.....

<snip>

Huh... Bravo.

[Katchii]

If this doesn’t paint a good enough picture of the mental gymnastics that you are willing to do to keep feeding this extreme denial, I don’t know what it does. Go ahead, support the project as much as you want, I hope that one day it becomes everything you dream of and we all get a new good ass game to play, but this shit you are doing, for your own sake, just stop, it’s just sad at this point.

If there is any other topic you guys want me to cover up, feel free to give me the heads up.

Bravo.

I'm not sure if anyone else did, but as a parent, I read that as a parent talking to their petulant child trying to lie their way out of something stupid going "you have one last chance to be honest with me here..."

Funny enough though, he hasn't posted in a few days even after all this. Maybe </crossesfingers > he learned his lesson? Possibly? Hopefully?

[kenn9530]

Bravo.

I'm not sure if anyone else did, but as a parent, I read that as a parent talking to their petulant child trying to lie their way out of something stupid going "you have one last chance to be honest with me here..."

Funny enough though, he hasn't posted in a few days even after all this. Maybe </crossesfingers > he learned his lesson? Possibly? Hopefully?

No point in posting if there is nothing even remotely constructive going on is there, the game never gets discussed at all, the constant complaints from the handful of posters gets a little boring, at least complain about the game mechanics or something, the same old things over and over are not even worth replying too.

CiG are doing things no other company would even dare to attempt, so what does it matter if it takes longer, the only thing that matters is the end result.

PS If you have not received a reply recently then i have not even read your posts, might save you some time.

[Kyanion]

No point in posting if there is nothing even remotely constructive going on is there
PS If you have not received a reply recently then i have not even read your posts, might save you some time.

Goes ahead and posts anyway and even dodges the walls of his own things he's said that people have provided. Sounds about right.

- - - Updated - - -

the game never gets discussed at all

What is there to discuss? The game has constant delays on content and only seems to put out new ships like clockwork. Do you want people to gawk at a ship for 30 pages? Should they discuss the server caps and how it limits a game being multiplayer?

- - - Updated - - -

at least complain about the game mechanics or something

Oh yes that buggy mess, sure talk about it!

- - - Updated - - -

CiG are doing things no other company would even dare to attempt, so what does it matter if it takes longer, the only thing that matters is the end result.

Again this is your opinion on who cares how long it takes. No other company would 'dare' to attempt such a feature creeped game and then try and make 2 games at once out of it? You're right on that one. Look where it has gone so far in the past what 8-10 years? Not even a release date in the future to hope for, this game is FAR away from ever being done.

Funny enough though, he hasn't posted in a few days even after all this. Maybe </crossesfingers > he learned his lesson? Possibly? Hopefully?

You wish...

[Katchii]

No point in posting if there is nothing even remotely constructive going on is there, the game never gets discussed at all, the constant complaints from the handful of posters gets a little boring, at least complain about the game mechanics or something, the same old things over and over are not even worth replying too.

I'm worth replying to apparently, so thanks for that confidence boost.

CiG are doing things no other company would even dare to attempt, so what does it matter if it takes longer, the only thing that matters is the end result.

And this is what people with absolutely no business sense or project management skills to speak of say. Or zealots. The end result is absolutely NOT all that matters. The amount of money and time it takes to get there is absolutely relevant, and should be taken into account.

PS If you have not received a reply recently then i have not even read your posts, might save you some time.

Thanks for being honest about only being interested in spreading your garbage with no intention of actually discussing it in good faith. As I said before, I would save time by ignoring you, but your posts are such a source of entertainment, I just can't help myself.