1. #13021
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Yeah. Me and Proskill seem to be the only people on MMO-C who pop in here to actually discuss our experiences playing the game, but it seems that Proskill might have stopped following SC altogether. If I were to come back here to talk about updates, and after a few posts in a row of me being the only guy talking in this thread, I'd stop and let it die. Even the Trails thread gets way more actual discussion than this.
    That is because any and all actuall discussion is drowned by pointless hate that is not going anywhere, and pointless "But its awesome" that is not going anywhere.

    If it were up to me, I would have banned all those from the thread, that way one would be actually able to discuss stuff that happens in SC. Be it Positiv or Negativ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    I've probably read ~50+ pages of this thread and your posts have been, realistically, the only ones that have taught me anything about Star Citizen as an actual game and I appreciate that. It genuinely sounds like something that could be fun, but it's at least 10 years away from being fun if the guy at the top actually wants it to ever be finished, and I don't believe that he does.
    This is the point and why people still back the project. Because, "If It succeeds, its going to be Awesome".

    There is no harm in leaving the Project be, until it fails or delivers, and not back the game. And if someone decides to back the game he should have enough of a brain to know that the chances of his money beeing wasted are much larger than the chances of the game launching, or even launching the way he hopes.



    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    ... to the point where I think any real expectation of the game ever reaching the goals that have been set is beyond hopeless.
    This is also a true thing. Star Citizen can never ever reach the goals, expectations and hopes some (and probably many) have for it. One needs to be realistic.
    Saying: "The game will definitely crash and burn", or "It will never release" are idiotic statements, because unless I missed something TimeTravel is not yet invented, you dont know what the future will hold, there appear to be enough people to keep funding the game, as long as the money flows, CIG would be stupid to can the project. (Not saying it couldn´t happen).

    But its almost certain that upon the day when CIG decides: "Its done", or "Its Mostly Done", many people will be dissappointed because its not exactly what they envisioned or hoped for. However, I feel (depending on how they tackle the big issues), at that point it can be quite an enjoyable game.
    Could be that I personally wont have fun (anymore), but I think alot of people will find fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    It's been fun to watch a thread go round and round in circles for a while but I really think at this point it needs some moderation beyond a post 15 pages ago saying "stop it".
    This, as said Previously, I would just Bann those 4-5 (I think) People from the thread.
    Last edited by LanToaster; 2021-05-23 at 06:17 PM.

  2. #13022
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    snip.
    When you are building a game never been done before no matter how much experience you have its impossible to know how long or how much it will take. CiG have been doing the impossible for years, to build a company up from nothing while still developing a game at the same time is difficult for doing even a normal game.

    The most important thing about a game is its final product, if you think otherwise then you are just lying to yourself, if a game is good it doesnt matter if it cost 1 billion to develop or took 20 years to make, the whole point in a game is that you want to play it and the game itself interests what you enjoy.

    Building an MMO means the company will always be developing the game regardless of when it releases in a suitable version where it has most of what it needs.
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  3. #13023
    The Patient Basileus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    When you are building a game never been done before no matter how much experience you have its impossible to know how long or how much it will take. CiG have been doing the impossible for years, to build a company up from nothing while still developing a game at the same time is difficult for doing even a normal game.

    The most important thing about a game is its final product, if you think otherwise then you are just lying to yourself, if a game is good it doesnt matter if it cost 1 billion to develop or took 20 years to make, the whole point in a game is that you want to play it and the game itself interests what you enjoy.

    Building an MMO means the company will always be developing the game regardless of when it releases in a suitable version where it has most of what it needs.
    But it does matter. A lot. Taking that long and that much money to develop a game would show large scale project management issues, thus resulting in poor project management after the release when waiting for updates to the game. The problem is scope creep. It’s cool that CR is trying to make his dream but the time and money absolutely matter. It’s still a business, he still has customers and investors he has to worry about.

    Edit:
    Also, part of the initial stages, and ongoing stages, of project development is to reevaluate your timeline, to analyze where you’re at, where you need to devote resources to, where resources have been mismanaged, etc.
    If they don’t have leadership capable of sitting down and planning out how long something should take to implement, that is a huge issue.

    It’s also really frightening to see a company outsourcing one of the major pieces of their game to another company who doesn’t have experience in building that tool.
    Last edited by Basileus; 2021-05-23 at 07:08 PM.

  4. #13024
    Quote Originally Posted by Basileus View Post
    snip
    There is nothing to compare SC to, timescale or how much it will cost is impossible to know, a game of this scale has never been done before and making 2 games at the same time which share most things anyway is still a ton or work, CiG spent around 5 years building up a company from nothing so those 5 years were not even full development.

    CR sold the community on his dream game, we want that game and that game only, currently money or time is not an issue because the games funding is more than ever, there is only a few investors at most and im sure they know exactly what is going on in the company and they are still putting money into the project.
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  5. #13025
    Stood in the Fire Agent Smith's Avatar
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    $330 Million + and 11 years, is the game out of Alpha?

  6. #13026
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    When you are building a game never been done before no matter how much experience you have its impossible to know how long or how much it will take.
    You should have a good estimate at the beginning. Nothing about this game is "never been done before" it's just the scale of it that's unprecedented. At this point and after this long they absolutely should understand how much longer it should take, and therefore about how much money is needed.

    If they still can't estimate how much time and money it will take to finish this game/ games, they absolutely do not deserve your money because when it comes to running a project, they have no idea wtf they're doing.

    CiG have been doing the impossible for years, to build a company up from nothing while still developing a game at the same time is difficult for doing even a normal game.
    What does this have to do with running a project effectively? All of the time, money and recruiting necessary should have been effectively taken into account when they started this project. If they didn't do it right, that's their fault. This is not a difficult, unknown or brand new concept.

    The most important thing about a game is its final product, if you think otherwise then you are just lying to yourself,
    This is objectively false, dude, from a project management viewpoint. The money, time, effort, etc... it takes to get to the end result is just as, if not more, important than the final product. Return on Investment is a thing.

    if a game is good it doesnt matter if it cost 1 billion to develop or took 20 years to make, the whole point in a game is that you want to play it and the game itself interests what you enjoy.
    More zealous bullshit. It absolutely does matter, and it should matter to you. The fact that you're so willing to let company get away with this kind of thing speaks far more about you and people like you, than it does about them because it's people like you that allow them to get away with it.

    If a game should cost $500 million and ends up costing $1+ billion dollars, or if it could be done in ten years and ends up taking 20, that's a horrible HORRIBLE waste of money, time and resources and reeks of mismanagement and incompetence. And you're OK with that. If it were anyone but you saying it, I'd call it unbelievable.

    Building an MMO means the company will always be developing the game regardless of when it releases in a suitable version where it has most of what it needs.
    If this were the way they were actually developing it, we'd have a game by now that they were just adding on to over time. But we don't.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    There is nothing to compare SC to, timescale or how much it will cost is impossible to know,
    But it's not impossible. The kind of work necessary is not brand new, unexplored territory ESPECIALLY after they've supposedly been working on it for years. They should know how much work is needed to get it finished. If they don't at this point, they're incompetent.

  7. #13027
    Quote Originally Posted by LanToaster View Post
    snip.
    This thread will go months at a time of being inactive two certain people stop posting for a while. There is little TO discuss with this game. Do you want to talk about AI tucking themselves into bed and taking a shit or the latest ship to churn money out of people's pockets when there is a backlog of ships? What is there to really discuss about this game besides the delays?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    There is nothing to compare SC to, timescale or how much it will cost is impossible to know, a game of this scale has never been done before and making 2 games at the same time which share most things anyway is still a ton or work, CiG spent around 5 years building up a company from nothing so those 5 years were not even full development.
    Ah yes, so subtract 5 years from the project now huh? Sure okay
    You love to say what the game WILL have in it but you don't know what will actually make it in there.
    They chose to featurecreep themselves to death and now the mess they have is where it is at.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The most important thing about a game is its final product, if you think otherwise then you are just lying to yourself, if a game is good it doesnt matter if it cost 1 billion to develop or took 20 years to make, the whole point in a game is that you want to play it and the game itself interests what you enjoy.
    I wonder why during the Kickstarter and after they never say this is going to take 20 years to make. Would people have backed this if it was a 20 year project? I do wonder. I know I'd not wait around 20 years for a game, I'd likely be dead by then.

  8. #13028
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    snip
    When you are making a game thats never been done before its impossible to know how long it will take or how much it will cost, they wouldnt know how long it would take to build a company up from nothing or how long it will take to hire enough staff, even a company like blizzard dont really know how long it will take to do something as is proven since we dont have a date on the next patch.

    End product is all that matters, how much a game costs or how long it takes does not effect anyone except the company. If a company can generate as much money as they need, costs are irrelevant, gameplay is all that matters. As a gamer all that matters is the game and how fun it is.

    All you have is an opinion about management, its not a fact and you have no proof the company is operated any differently that any other. Open development just means we have access to more information that many other companies want to hide.
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  9. #13029
    Kenn just leave the whole quote so people can see what you're responding to, it makes things way more awkward to follow with this snipping that you're fond of.

  10. #13030
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    All you have is an opinion about management, its not a fact and you have no proof the company is operated any differently that any other. Open development just means we have access to more information that many other companies want to hide.
    I actually have a certification in Project Management (PMP).

    You're the only one with an unfounded opinion here and have proven time and time and time again that you have absolutely no idea wtf you're talking about.

  11. #13031
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    When you are making a game thats never been done before its impossible to know how long it will take or how much it will cost, they wouldnt know how long it would take to build a company up from nothing or how long it will take to hire enough staff, even a company like blizzard dont really know how long it will take to do something as is proven since we dont have a date on the next patch.

    End product is all that matters, how much a game costs or how long it takes does not effect anyone except the company. If a company can generate as much money as they need, costs are irrelevant, gameplay is all that matters. As a gamer all that matters is the game and how fun it is.

    All you have is an opinion about management, its not a fact and you have no proof the company is operated any differently that any other. Open development just means we have access to more information that many other companies want to hide.
    There have been hundreds of firsts for games and games that "never have been done before" and yet they didn't need 20 years to create them.

    End product isn't the only thing that matters. If I order a pizza and expect it in 30 mins and get it 8 years later I'm going to be pissed. If I'm told a game is going to come out in 2014 and it still isn't out in 2021 I'm going to be pissed. A year or two delay I could understand but a 7+ year delay? You really going to be satisfied if they don't finish the game till your 98 and blind and deaf?

    His opinion on management is based on the fact that there have been numerous delays, under estimates of the money it would need to take, them continuing to make new ships when they know they gotta redo all the ships for salvaging, and prioritizing making new ships to sell over finishing the ones they already sold. If that isn't bad management then what will it take for you to call it that?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1001 View Post
    Kenn just leave the whole quote so people can see what you're responding to, it makes things way more awkward to follow with this snipping that you're fond of.
    He does that since 99% of the points someone points out he can't come up with an excuse for that way he can "win" and everyone forgets about all the other shit said.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2021-05-23 at 09:05 PM.

  12. #13032
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanstos View Post
    $330 Million + and 11 years, is the game out of Alpha?
    Arguably its not even in alpha yet.
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

    "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988

  13. #13033
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I actually have a certification in Project Management (PMP).

    You're the only one with an unfounded opinion here and have proven time and time and time again that you have absolutely no idea wtf you're talking about.
    Qualifications are irrlevant since you dont work for CiG you have no clue what they are doing in the company so yes its just an opinion.
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  14. #13034
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Qualifications are irrlevant since you dont work for CiG you have no clue what they are doing in the company so yes its just an opinion.
    Qualifications are absolutely not irrlevant, as they show that he has a professional background to inform his opinion. Everything people are complaining about stems from CIG's actions. They have missed deadlines. They have a very scummy cash shop. Development stretches on and on, and after a decade, there is no end in sight. This is not normal, and it is why people are so critical.

    I don't know why I keep replying to this guy. It's obvious he has me ignored. I guess I asked too many questions he couldn't spin his way out of.

  15. #13035
    Every day Kenn comes in with a new way to dismiss arguments. Few days ago it was "BS Arguments", Yesterday was "Arm chair Devs", and today it's "a game never thats never been done before." Any guesses what tomorrow is going to be?

  16. #13036
    Quote Originally Posted by 1001 View Post
    Kenn just leave the whole quote so people can see what you're responding to, it makes things way more awkward to follow with this snipping that you're fond of.
    I don't think it matters, he could copy paste the "making a game thats never been done before" crap or calling something BS. Lord knows there are multiple times it is quoted now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thestrawman View Post
    Every day Kenn comes in with a new way to dismiss arguments. Few days ago it was "BS Arguments", Yesterday was "Arm chair Devs", and today it's "a game never thats never been done before." Any guesses what tomorrow is going to be?
    Nah arm chair devs I think is Anderson. Kenn does love the 'never been done before' crap though

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Qualifications are irrlevant
    It is either BS, irrelevant, never been done before or some other deflection from you. You believe everything CIG spoonfeeds you (or pays you for) and are just a warped 'yes man'. The problem is most of the things you say have been directly contradicted from CIG or CR. That's the fun part.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    I don't know why I keep replying to this guy. It's obvious he has me ignored. I guess I asked too many questions he couldn't spin his way out of.
    He may ignore it but the rest of us see it and I personally appreciate your comments on the matter. Standing up for companies that pull the things CIG has is pretty terrible.

  17. #13037
    I must ask: how has this "game" not been compared to the likes of Dreamworld or Chronicles of whatever? It still appears to be promising the whole galaxy, but is still unreleased after who knows how long??

  18. #13038
    Quote Originally Posted by Xorzor View Post
    I must ask: how has this "game" not been compared to the likes of Dreamworld or Chronicles of whatever? It still appears to be promising the whole galaxy, but is still unreleased after who knows how long??
    There is a game currently available that thousands of players are playing on a daily basis, the game is updated on a regular basis, and the company releases updates on progress on a very regular basis.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  19. #13039
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xorzor View Post
    I must ask: how has this "game" not been compared to the likes of Dreamworld or Chronicles of whatever? It still appears to be promising the whole galaxy, but is still unreleased after who knows how long??
    The power of presentation. Star Citizen has high production blog videos on their youtube channel, and there is an actual game you can download that - at first glance - seems pretty comprehensive. It isn't until you play the games for several hours that the shallowness of the game, the halfbaked systems, etc, starts to become really apparent, but by that point CIG has more than likely already gotten your money.

    New small ships are regularly created and there are regular discount sales, so they've got a lot of whales of evangelize about the game. Old, dissatisfied backers largely don't talk about SC anymore, as they've either been 1. banned from the official forums for criticizing the game and CIG, 2. cashed out by selling their ships and/or account on the grey/black market, or 3. just don't care anymore, so you don't really have many dissenting voices left.

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  20. #13040
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Qualifications are irrlevant since you dont work for CiG you have no clue what they are doing in the company so yes its just an opinion.
    My opinions on project management are not irrelevant, when it comes to how a company is managing a project.

    You can disagree with those opinions, that's fine (stupid, but fine, as project management is a well characterized and established process).

    The only thing in this conversation that is irrelevant is you.

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