1. #14061
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Im not making anything up, its just reality
    It's not, no matter how many times you repeat this. Considering I work directly with these marketing budgets sometimes, they're not factored into actual development costs. They're factored into total costs, but development and marketing costs are separate despite your insistence they're not.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    i was always talking about the complete cost of a game.
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    If you spend whatever on marketing a game in development that is included in the cost to make the game
    No, you didn't, because marketing budgets aren't related to "making" the game. Again, they're a part of the total costs to ship the product, but not costs to make it.

    We can keep doing this, or you can admit that you were wrong and move on. It's alright to be wrong, we're all wrong sometimes.

  2. #14062
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    This is WoW. This isn't even all of the players on the server. These screenshots show you a small fraction of the total number gathered here. There are many more people to the left, right, or behind the camera, and more people on the way to this gathering. There is Horde group down the road at least just as big, as well as many hundreds and hundreds of other players scattered across the world, and thousands of people on the same server at the same time.
    WoW can barely handle too many players in one area, thats why retail WoW limits the amount of players in one area to give a smoother experience, there is no content in WoW for large scale groups, and you are comparing a complete game with 20 years of development and probably well over 500 million spent overall at least to a completely different game.

    Also SC is not just about players in a server the NPCs are whats going to mostly populate the universe.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-10-08 at 11:11 PM.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  3. #14063
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    I think there is something different between SC, GTA 6 and Elder Scrolls.. I wonder what it could be. Maybe one has been crowdfunded and put out dates. Maybe one of them has a fully functional cash shop. Maybe one of them is an 'open' Alpha state to siphon more money. Maybe one of those games isn't like the other two after all.
    True that. Star Citizen is an MMO and GTA 6 nor ES6 are... MMO's are always more difficult to develop due to online lag related issues when it comes to gameplay.
    It took several years for a mod team to turn Skyrim into online-coop that isnt super janky.

  4. #14064
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    It's not, no matter how many times you repeat this. Considering I work directly with these marketing budgets sometimes, they're not factored into actual development costs. They're factored into total costs, but development and marketing costs are separate despite your insistence they're not.





    No, you didn't, because marketing budgets aren't related to "making" the game. Again, they're a part of the total costs to ship the product, but not costs to make it.

    We can keep doing this, or you can admit that you were wrong and move on. It's alright to be wrong, we're all wrong sometimes.
    Im not wrong, the total cost of the game includes marketing not just what it cost to develop so we may aswell not discuss it further because nothing will change my mind on that.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  5. #14065
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    WoW can barely handle too many players in one area


    We've done this dance before. You're still wrong. Like, you being wrong is ending up being a common theme in this thread.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Im not wrong, the total cost of the game includes marketing not just what it cost to develop so we may aswell not discuss it further because nothing will change my mind on that.
    Ok, fine. Enjoy being wrong, just don't be upset when people who actually work with these numbers and have experience in the industry keep telling you that your headcanon is wrong.

  6. #14066
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Except Cyberpunk was an enjoyable game, something that Star Citizen never will be.
    Its kinda cringe stating something like that from a game you probably havent even tried yet.... even then its pure opinion if you will enjoy it or not, so that statement is wrong by default.

    Not everyone enjoys Fortnite either, but hundreds of thousands of people enjoy playing it regardless of those who dont.

  7. #14067
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    i was always talking about the complete cost of a game.
    Oh yeah right. I'm sure there are fucktons of quotes over the years from you saying the exact opposite. You can't be trusted with damn near anything you say.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    WoW can barely handle too many players in one area, thats why retail WoW limits the amount of players in one area to give a smoother experience
    Can handle more than SC does.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    there is no content in WoW for large scale groups
    I guess raiding and PVP battlegrounds aren't a thing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    you are comparing a complete game
    Dude you have tried to compare SC to many games over the years. It is not other game's fault that SC is not a complete game. The game won't be out in 2021, 2022, 2023 and prolly not 2024. You realize this yes? This game has years to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Also SC is not just about players in a server the NPCs are whats going to mostly populate the universe.
    The ones that love to Tpose or go take shits? Awesome. Of course the NPCs populate the universe because players cannot on a server. 50 person cap and all that.

  8. #14068
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post


    We've done this dance before. You're still wrong. Like, you being wrong is ending up being a common theme in this thread.
    What exactly are you trying to prove with that video? its laggy as hell in there... you can see players rubberbanding and asmon getting hit when noone is around. xD

    You kinda just proved his point.... WoW can barely handle too many players in an area, weve seen this countless times.
    Weve experienced it countless times... in Ashran for example.

  9. #14069
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Im not wrong, the total cost of the game includes marketing not just what it cost to develop so we may aswell not discuss it further because nothing will change my mind on that.
    Cool, as with many things you say you're wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Otaka View Post
    What exactly are you trying to prove with that video? its laggy as hell in there... you can see players rubberbanding and asmon getting hit when noone is around. xD

    You kinda just proved his point.... WoW can barely handle too many players in an area, weve seen this countless times.
    Weve experienced it countless times... in Ashran for example.
    And SC cannot handle more than 50 players or the server implodes. Oh wait the servers go down often anyways.

  10. #14070
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    WoW can barely handle too many players in one area, thats why retail WoW limits the amount of players in one area to give a smoother experience, there is no content in WoW for large scale groups, and you are comparing a complete game with 20 years of development and probably well over 500 million spent overall at least to a completely different game.
    This is made up BS that has no bearing on the actual argument. Also, you are the one who constantly draws this comparison between SC and other finished, well established products.

  11. #14071
    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    This is made up BS that has no bearing on the actual argument. Also, you are the one who constantly draws this comparison between SC and other finished, well established products.
    And fails at doing that pretty hard. Like the amount of years/budget to make X game, or what the game can do that SC fails to do. Shit cracks me up

  12. #14072
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Im not wrong, the total cost of the game includes marketing not just what it cost to develop so we may aswell not discuss it further because nothing will change my mind on that.
    You can parade your ignorance and wear that hat firmly on your head, and I will continue to point it out and call you out for being blatantly ignorant.

    I'm not interested in changing your mind here. I'm interested in laying out the facts and countering the ignorance you're spouting out willfully, and using public knowledge and sources of information to debunk any of your callous attempts at framing it as being 'like other companies that spent $300m to make a game'

    If you're not wiling to consider the difference in allocation of funds, then I call out that you're using your opinion rather than the facts to spout out nonsense.


    I'm not even dogging on Star Citizen as a game. It could be completed in the future. It could be a very fun game by the time it's completed, and CiG praised for accomplishing something that no other game or company had done before. But let's be clear that all of that is a very different conversation from your assertion that the way they're developing this game is anywhere near comparable to any other company that has come before it, especially if we're comparing the amount of money actually put into development, the amount of time it has used, and fact that we are currently in 2021 with no signs of a Beta or Release in sight. There is no situation where we can look at this game and say "Oh look, everything is on track, just like how Rockstar made GTAV or how CDProjekt made Cyberpunk". It's absolutely incomparable and absolutely an exception to the industry standard.

    CiG is paving the way for an unprecedented way to develop any game, and are breaking records for it. Traditionally, this path leads to games becoming indefinitely postponed or cancelled because funds run out. That has not happened to CiG, therefore they can and will continue development. What it means for the future is absolutely unknown, but we can't take the current situation as a sign that everything is according to plan as you have suggested, because there is absolutely no comparable value to any industry standard. The industry standard is usually $40-100 million for a 3-5 year development cycle, and that can yield a triple A game. Companies can strive to go beyond that, and the extremes have been notable for having a 7-9 year release, but are still actually released by that time. Star Citizen is progressing well beyond that point. It stands alone for being in the most unique situation any game in development could ever be.

    I've never once dogged on the game or said it was unfun or set to become a failure, so let's be absolutely clear that I have no intention to spin a narrative around the game's future success or failure. I'm calling you out for making statements about the game and the industry regarding the high cost and time to adapt new technologies and how you compared it to the industry as a whole as being blatantly false. It's true that Star Citizen is adapting technology and dedicating resources to adapting it as development progresses, but *it is not comparable to any other game on the market* through any standard. I'm calling you out for stating that the cost of 'making a game' involves the Marketing budget. These are all statements made in blatant ignorance from someone who doesn't actually understand how the industry works.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Which is why they are easily target and manipulated by clickbait headlines and articles. They eat up all the blatant mix of misinformation hyperbole and half-truths and come out swinging thinking they know better. Which is when reality and facts kick in. Then they go dormant again until a later surge of pointless drama comes up.

    ---

    By October they showed it citizencon 2015 and later released it to backers in December. That's the Star Citizen Online Universe main build which they've build and iterated upon.
    And where's the rest of the information that leads us into 2021? Framing everything up to 2015 and conveniently ignoring the rest is itself is a half-truth there, buddy.

    Nothing you've said here actually counters anything said in the 'clickbait' articles that have reported on micromanagement/mismanagement within the company. What's blatantly clear is you're pointing at the same mess and excusing it as 'working as intended' because CiG is able to continue to obtain funds and continue development of the game.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-10-09 at 12:56 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  13. #14073
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    snip
    What am i wrong about where in retail WoW do massive amounts of players play in the same map, they dont because they are spread out amount multiple instances because the game cant handle it, last time large amounts of players grouped up in retail WoW was ICC event before shadowlands and that would lag out for ages and there was no more than 50 ppl.

    The video also proves my point in the game not being able to handle too many players in one area even in less spell intensive versions such as TBC and classic vanilla. WoW can maybe handle 100 or so without too many issues and thats it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    snip
    It is you who is ignorant, everything that is spent on game development and what it takes to release it is all factored in to its total costs, GTA 5 cost 265 million to develop and release, RDR2 cost over 500 million, those are just facts you want to ignore. No matter how hard you try and spin it thats how much it cost the company to develop and release a game.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  14. #14074
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    What am i wrong about where in retail WoW do massive amounts of players play in the same map, they dont because they are spread out amount multiple instances because the game cant handle it, last time large amounts of players grouped up in retail WoW was ICC event before shadowlands and that would lag out for ages and there was no more than 50 ppl.

    The video also proves my point in the game not being able to handle too many players in one area even in less spell intensive versions such as TBC and classic vanilla.
    Hahaha...you just keep embarassing yourself over and over....The million years old Alterac Valley is 40vs40, but cityraiding can go high as multiple 40 men raids for ATTACKING and god knows how many ppl join for defending
    https://gamerjournalist.com/wow-clas...ulations-2020/
    This is CLASSIC and let me help you...those are not non-player characters on the picture

  15. #14075
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    What am i wrong about where in retail WoW do massive amounts of players play in the same map, they dont because they are spread out amount multiple instances because the game cant handle it, last time large amounts of players grouped up in retail WoW was ICC event before shadowlands and that would lag out for ages and there was no more than 50 ppl.

    The video also proves my point in the game not being able to handle too many players in one area even in less spell intensive versions such as TBC and classic vanilla. WoW can maybe handle 100 or so without too many issues and thats it.
    How many can SC handle? How long before the server dies from it? Yeah...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    It is you who is ignorant, everything that is spent on game development and what it takes to release it is all factored in to its total costs, GTA 5 cost 265 million to develop and release, RDR2 cost over 500 million, those are just facts you want to ignore. No matter how hard you try and spin it thats how much it cost the company to develop and release a game.
    Are you just trolling at this point? No one factors marketing into the cost of a game but YOU.

  16. #14076
    Quote Originally Posted by cateran100 View Post
    Hahaha...you just keep embarassing yourself over and over....The million years old Alterac Valley is 40vs40, but cityraiding can go high as multiple 40 men raids for ATTACKING and god knows how many ppl join for defending
    https://gamerjournalist.com/wow-clas...ulations-2020/
    This is CLASSIC and let me help you...those are not non-player characters on the picture
    You are the one embarassing yourself since its already been proven WoW cant handle too many players in one area, even just moving around in a group the game struggles, if you cant play the game smoothly then it is not fit for purpose, WoW just lags out every single time too many are in one area, in retail all areas have a limit on amount of players, the only place you can see more than 50 is cities and most are just standing afk.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  17. #14077
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    You are the one embarassing yourself since its already been proven WoW cant handle too many players in one area, even just moving around in a group the game struggles, if you cant play the game smoothly then it is not fit for purpose, WoW just lags out every single time too many are in one area, in retail all areas have a limit on amount of players, the only place you can see more than 50 is cities and most are just standing afk.
    And yet again SC can't even handle 51 people ANYWHERE on the server.

  18. #14078
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    It is you who is ignorant, everything that is spent on game development and what it takes to release it is all factored in to its total costs, GTA 5 cost 265 million to develop and release, RDR2 cost over 500 million, those are just facts you want to ignore. No matter how hard you try and spin it thats how much it cost the company to develop and release a game.
    And that budget is absolutely split between Marketing and Development, with analyst estimating that half of that budget was spent in marketing

    https://screenrant.com/red-dead-rede...r-development/
    While the only way to know for sure is if Rockstar decides to divulge a figure, an estimation by VentureBeat shortly after the game launched placed the total cost of RDR2 around $540 million, with potentially half of that being the marketing budget.


    GTAV and Red Dead Redemption 2 were not planned to be released two years after they were announced.

    Long development cycles were planned from the beginning, and even though they both got development push backs, they released within a reasonable timeframe for the budget and scope of the games they aimed to develop, focusing on polishing the game. Both games gained critical acclaim for it.

    Star Citizen is in a completely opposite end of that, having planned to release back in 2014, and eventually expanded the scope to beyond any given deadline. They missed every deadline they put out, and fans have continued to pour money into supporting the developer. That just doesn't happen in the industry, and is not a norm at all. The very basis of the economics for this game lacks any tangible accountability, which puts it in an absolutely unique position as being a game that defies any standard in the industry.

    It's not a case of 'Games take lots of money to make nowadays', it's a case of 'This one game built up a shit ton of hope and has maintained it over a decade with full support of its fans, without actually having ever really released anything officially'. It will continue to develop as long as fans keep supporting it, and frankly there is no way to predict whether this game will actually go anywhere since it has a clear track record of missing every deadline they have put out, including removing any deadline at all on Squadron 42.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-10-09 at 02:19 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  19. #14079
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    You are the one embarassing yourself since its already been proven WoW cant handle too many players in one area, even just moving around in a group the game struggles, if you cant play the game smoothly then it is not fit for purpose, WoW just lags out every single time too many are in one area, in retail all areas have a limit on amount of players, the only place you can see more than 50 is cities and most are just standing afk.


    Look look, this is from Vanilla WoW not classic, Vanilla. World PvP, not a battleground.

    https://youtu.be/WmFcpcKB7fw

    Wow doesn't lag, Star citizen lags because of its really bad codes written by crytek devs employed by cig. Cig employing the worst developers all over the world because they are cheap.

  20. #14080
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    That's right, star citizen backers don't actually care about the opinion of random joes without not real interest about their game.
    Still, it's amusing to poke the holes in their pie in the sky theories and expose how little knowledge they have despite acting all wise and know it all.

    By now, it's clear as day who are the ones who care about the game to those only in it for the drama. They probably wont ever have the hardware to even run it or the patience to learn the basic key-binds to learn how to fly. For them it's just an escape for whatever frustrations they have with themselves. A way to vent by hanging on drama.

    Which is why they are easily target and manipulated by clickbait headlines and articles. They eat up all the blatant mix of misinformation hyperbole and half-truths and come out swinging thinking they know better. Which is when reality and facts kick in. Then they go dormant again until a later surge of pointless drama comes up.

    I suppose I could, for the 100000th time bring out factual data and information about the project and it's finances that could help shed some light into the project, crowdfunding and game development in general.

    Financials, easy as peasy concept.

    Money goes In(pledges)
    Money goes Out(Building/Maintaining/Growing company, Marketing, Running servers, Opening studios, Hiring Developers, Paying salaries, Buying Hardware, Tools Licenses, R&D etc)

    Money IN along the years:

    Money OUT along the years:


    Source: https://cloudimperiumgames.com/blog/...cials-for-2019

    This misconception that CIG has a hidden stash of gold that keeps getting bigger and bigger should be dead long time ago. If only "gaming journalists" would still do some investigation they would understand that as CIG got more pledges they invested in their company and in making the games the best they can be. Quality is top priority above time/financial and even reputation gains.
    ~~
    The variation in "Start of Development" is just a case of different perspectives and understanding levels of the project.

    The early backers who've been following the game from the early stages know that there were several resets along the way as the funding/company/tech grew and evolved so did the game and it's complexity.

    The TLDR: In late 2014»2015 CIG abandoned the instanced vision of small maps connected by instancing to accommodate full procedural planets and seamless planetary landings which forced them to abandon a lot of prior work and start all over to accommodate the new vision.

    From 2014 to 2015 CIG managed to hire a big chunk of veteran CryTek/Cryengine devs. Crytek missed payments so they joined CIG who opened a studio in Frankfurt for them. Among those dev's was the main cry-engine developer which add done advanced work on planetary procedural generation tech for cryengine on the side.

    When he became part of CIG that tech became available to CIG, it was so promising they abandoned the older scope (space and ground separated by instancing- small planetary locations instead of full blown planets and cities) and went back to the drawing board to accommodate such an increase of scope and the inevitable change of design for the rest of the year. By October they showed it citizencon 2015 and later released it to backers in December. That's the Star Citizen Online Universe main build which they've build and iterated upon.
    I think the best part of this post is how it shows that since 2015 CiG has spend more every year then they made in backer money, which is why they have had to take in outside investments and why, despite raking in an obscene amount of money, if that money well ever dries up the company is going to be quickly ruined and SC will never release. Or like every other Chris Roberts project some other company will come in to buy and finish the game without him.

    This is in a nutshell what so many of us are complaining about. We want a good SC game and 300+mil should have been enough for that, but somehow its not enough to get a pre-alpha off the ground. The problem, as always, is Chris and his decisions.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

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