[Megathread] Star Citizen

[kenn9530]

Well, it is a scam. It's a practically vaporware product selling you ships for assloads of money with almost nothing to show for it.

You reeaally have no clue what crewing a ship means. Holy fucking shit.

If this forum has no bearing on who wants to play the game or not, then why do you continue to post here to defend the game and sing it's praises? It's numbers don't really rise and the money keeps coming because they dupe people like you to buy into it. It's kinda cult like.

You should tell that to all the Star Citizen emails I get from when I received it for free with an old graphics card purchase and that other fellow posting updates. It's almost like I read and actually understand where and what I post.

According to you a scam is a game you can play right now and has more content than many others currently available and you barely even need to spend 50 bucks on the game to play it. You are seriously delusional at this point.

Crewing a ship in a game is far different to crewing a ship in real life, the number for max crew is real life estimate to run a ship 24hrs a day, i know what im talking about you are just talking nonsense. You will never need max crew on the large ships ever as most ppl will have nothing to do most of the time.

I come to waste the time of posters who cant do anything other than hate other projects, just like your only reason is to show your clear lack of knowledge about everything.

[Edge-]

Planning to possibly grant access to one single episode is a far far cry from a full release for SQ42 considering the game is at least 28 episodes long, and its two games one is called star citizen the MMO and one is called SQ42, this is not a release no matter how you try and spin it, nothing in a presentation is 100% going to happen, so no full release of the game was ever stated for an actual release.

Until i see a full day month year and them actually stating it 100% outright its not a release date. They also added in planet tech which was not origionally going to happen and that tech is 100% required for this game. The games company can change the game as many times as they like.

First episode was supposed to be released. It's 7 years, almost 8 years later. It's still not released. That's the point. Roberts has stated target windows for releases and implied that things are further along than they apparently are for whatever reason.

Same goes for SC having a commercial launch in 2016, 6 years ago. Commercial = full launch.

If you think I don't know of the difference between SQ42 and SC at this point than my fears that you don't bother actually reading my posts have been validated, because I've been repeatedly and painfully clear on my understanding of the difference between the two.

"2016" is the release window, meaning the game will release sometime between 12:01AM January 1, 2016 and 11:59PM December 31, 2016. That's how release windows work. I literally work on release windows and dates as part of my job, they're not just arbitrary periods of time we throw out there for laughs.

Point being: They committed to target release windows, missed them, and then have been adding on more features and tech that pushes out the date even further. If that's what the backers want, fine! It's their money! But that doesn't change the fact that they have announced, and missed, release windows for SQ42 and SC multiple times over the years.

[Kyanion]

I come to waste the time of posters who cant do anything other than hate other projects, just like your only reason is to show your clear lack of knowledge about everything.

Ah so personal attacks and admitting you are here to troll.

[kenn9530]

First episode was supposed to be released. It's 7 years, almost 8 years later. It's still not released. That's the point. Roberts has stated target windows for releases and implied that things are further along than they apparently are for whatever reason.

Same goes for SC having a commercial launch in 2016, 6 years ago. Commercial = full launch.

If you think I don't know of the difference between SQ42 and SC at this point than my fears that you don't bother actually reading my posts have been validated, because I've been repeatedly and painfully clear on my understanding of the difference between the two.

"2016" is the release window, meaning the game will release sometime between 12:01AM January 1, 2016 and 11:59PM December 31, 2016. That's how release windows work. I literally work on release windows and dates as part of my job, they're not just arbitrary periods of time we throw out there for laughs.

Point being: They committed to target release windows, missed them, and then have been adding on more features and tech that pushes out the date even further. If that's what the backers want, fine! It's their money! But that doesn't change the fact that they have announced, and missed, release windows for SQ42 and SC multiple times over the years.

Its not a release date until they specifically state exactly when its going to come out to the exact day they want it released, otherwise its just a placeholder of posibilities of what they want to do with the game, pretty shortly after this presentation they implemented full planet tech so SQ42 would need a lot more work, planet tech was pretty much required for this game to actually work, its would not be much of a space game without it.

We already know what CR is like so i expect him to do unexpected things and develop the game they way he wanted it, thats why i have supported the project and not to have things pushed just for the sake of it.

[Edge-]

Its not a release date

Correct, I didn't say it was. It was a release window, meaning it was supposed to come out some time in that year. That's how release windows work in the industry. Every game that announces a release window does one of two things: announces a release date within that window and launches later, or delays the game beyond the release window. SC got delayed beyond the 2016 release window.

This is standard industry terminology.

otherwise its just a placeholder of posibilities of what they want to do with the game

Why imagine so small, then? Why do they need a placeholder implying an imminent release if it's just "possible". I mean, they could announce a September 2022 release window and while nobody would believe it, it's a "possibility" according to your logic.

pretty shortly after this presentation they implemented full planet tech so SQ42 would need a lot more work planet tech was pretty much required for this game to actually work, its would not be much of a space game without it.

Then why announce a release window for Ep. 1 if they knew they were waiting on tech that would delay the entire game?

We already know what CR is like so i expect him to do unexpected things and develop the game they way he wanted it, thats why i have supported the project and not to have things pushed just for the sake of it.

And that's 100% fine! I've never argued otherwise. What I do argue against is dishonesty and misrepresentation. You being fine with the game taking as long as it needs to "get it right" is totes fine, lots of other folks are doing the same for SC and plenty do it for plenty of other games and that's a perfectly valid position. But arguing that release windows aren't release windows is denying reality.

[kenn9530]

Correct, I didn't say it was. It was a release window, meaning it was supposed to come out some time in that year. That's how release windows work in the industry. Every game that announces a release window does one of two things: announces a release date within that window and launches later, or delays the game beyond the release window. SC got delayed beyond the 2016 release window.

This is standard industry terminology.



Why imagine so small, then? Why do they need a placeholder implying an imminent release if it's just "possible". I mean, they could announce a September 2022 release window and while nobody would believe it, it's a "possibility" according to your logic.



Then why announce a release window for Ep. 1 if they knew they were waiting on tech that would delay the entire game?



And that's 100% fine! I've never argued otherwise. What I do argue against is dishonesty and misrepresentation. You being fine with the game taking as long as it needs to "get it right" is totes fine, lots of other folks are doing the same for SC and plenty do it for plenty of other games and that's a perfectly valid position. But arguing that release windows aren't release windows is denying reality.

The game was not origionally going to have full planet tech, it would be an auto landing scene and thats it, they decided it needed planet tech so thats what they did, plans to do things are not 100% set in stone and can change at any time.

CR stated from the start he is developing his own way and if anyone done some basic research you should know what that means when CR is making the game, no date for a full SQ42 release has ever been stated thats for all 28 episodes or however many they are doing now, when they said they were going to add planet tech then everyone should of known SQ42 would need work to put that into the game also.

[- Zephox -]

Yes really. Those are all super fair criticisms, but don't make it a "scam". If it's a scam, it's honestly one the worst-run scam on the face of the planet.



It could have been greyboxed. Then they could have decided to redo whole sections of the game because Chris Roberts had a dream. This is Chris fucking Roberts we're talking about. Again, criticisms of their publicly announced release windows being missed, and at this point missed for over half a decade, are also super fair. But a lot of this stuff happens during internal development with large setbacks unexpectedly - albeit at a grossly smaller scale since developers generally have budgets and somewhat flexible deadlines.



Again, a poorly managed game development process with extremely poor and at times apparently flat-out dishonest communications is not inherently a scam. It's not even necessarily a scam. And again, it's clear the money is being poured into the game. Into the office expansions and hiring of staff. Into R&D on tech reinventing wheels because Chris Roberts wants it just right and everyone else at CIG is on board (either because they agree or because he signs their paychecks).



Again, without more context we don't know if that was a lie, or simply that they had every intent of moving ahead with the 2016 target until Chris Roberts had a dream and they had to scrap half the levels to rebuild them. Or maybe some new tech they were working on caused him to tell the team to pause for however long it took to get the tech ready so they could make sure to add it to the game without needing to do too much. Wet eyes? Bedsheet physics? Who knows.

All these are 100% accurate criticisms IMO. And while I agree with the vast majority of them and have a lot of criticisms about the overall initial pitch and then ongoing shambles of a slow development process, there's nothing pointing to this being a scam.

The money is being spent on the game. The people making the game are not randoms pulled from the street, they have a fair number of experienced developers working on this (not counting Roberts, given the mixed opinions on him). You have yet to point to anything indicating this is anything more than the expected result of Chris Roberts creating his dream game, with a seemingly endless supply of money from people who are happy to open their wallets repeatedly to fund that dream.

You do know we are talking about a person that after freelancer essentially to survive scammed legally with loopholes the German government for grants and financed 5 projects that went nowhere right? It made such a huge mess that the loophole created for those grants was fixed ....

2 people imprisoned for this as over 80% of money were going in their pockets and 3 of the figureheads of that shell company chaos including CR are now heading Star Citizen development...

[banmebaby]

They very much are. There's a playable game right now. Is it done? Nowhere near it. Is it polished? Hell no. Is it "good"? Subjective. But is there very much a playable game that's made with bespoke assets vs. something slapped together in Unity over a weekend using store-bought assets? 100%. Is the game seeing meaningful improvements with each update? For the most part, yeah. Are they still selling tons of ships and other shit? For sure, they've got a crazy burn-rate and a long ways to go if they want to get anywhere close to their ultimate vision for the game. And they've similarly got a lot of backers happy to repeatedly open their wallets and throw tons of money at the game.

I wasn't being sarcastic. I do agree with that.

What's the lie or deception? Everyone, especially hardcore Roberts fans, knows Roberts and his management style. I'll agree that CIG has repeatedly been far, far, far, far too optimistic about their release targets, but anyone still believing those targets uncritically after the first few years of the game either wasn't paying any attention to how those targets were missed by miles, or they simply don't care that the targets keep getting missed, like many people in this thread. And that's fine since that's their opinion.

When you repeatedly throw release windows around that you are unsure to be able to meet, or even know that you can’t meet at all, attached to promotional campaigns that will generate a fuck ton extra funding out of the hype alone… I don’t know, but I sure as hell wouldn’t blame anyone to describe that sort of shit as misleading and deceptive behavior.

Because that's the whole point of a scam, you're not providing what you're supposedly selling. And while the game is long, long delayed and progressing at a slow pace (not surprising given the scope of the game and their ambitions for it alongside the technical realities), it's very clear that they're spending a LOT of money on ongoing development for the game. If that's a scam, that's one of the worst scams around.

… but Chris Isn’t providing a lot of what his selling either.

I also highly disagree, if it’s a scam, is one of the best scams I’ve seen around, Chris Roberts didn’t just secure himself a high paying position, but he made sure to tag along his brother and wife, and who knows who else at this point, for years, maybe even decades, as backers compete and brag about managing to pay even more over the years, and if for some reason that stops and all goes to hell, he was the man who at least tried to change the industry, as he was clearly developing something, zero legal backlash.


Long story short, I wouldn't call it a scam either, at least not in the traditional way, the one we usually see with game development scams, however, I wouldn't say that people who call it a scam are entirely wrong either, as by definition:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/


Definition of scam

(Entry 1 of 2)
: a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation


Definition of deceptive

: tending or having power to cause someone to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid : tending or having power to deceive

I come to waste the time of posters

Yeah we know, but try to remember it next time you start accusing people of arguing in bad faith, will you?

[XDurionX]

Planning to possibly grant access to one single episode is a far far cry from a full release for SQ42 considering the game is at least 28 episodes long, and its two games one is called star citizen the MMO

Welp, just a tiny fraction of a game and THEY COULDN'T EVEN RELEASE THAT.

[Wilian]

PS: This is also completely fine, but quoting it might get me an infraction for "trolling", again, right @Edge- ? Right? *Wink wink

Getting infracted in this thread by Edge is sort of the most hilarious things to be experienced considering how infractable it itself is.

[banmebaby]

Getting infracted in this thread by Edge is sort of the most hilarious things to be experienced considering how infractable it itself is.

The entire moderation here is crazy random, you have people getting infracted for harmless jokes, asking if the game is out already, quoting users who ask themselves for proof of their own dishonesty, and whatnot, meanwhile you have a guy who’s posting history consists on “YOU JUST KNOW DON’T KNOW ANYTHING!”, that just openly admitted that his here just to waste people time, and that’s entirely fucking fine…. Fun part is, by pointing this out, you are risking another infraction for discussing such topic here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Wilian]

The entire moderation here is crazy random, you have people getting infracted for harmless jokes, asking if the game is out already, quoting users who ask themselves for proof of their own dishonesty, and whatnot, meanwhile you have a guy who’s posting history consists on “YOU JUST KNOW DON’T KNOW ANYTHING!”, that just openly admitted that his here just to waste people time, and that’s entirely fucking fine…. Fun part is, by pointing this out, you are risking another infraction for discussing such topic here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Literally admitted being paid by CIG to post and nothing happens ;D

[Cloverfield]

the game isnt released so there isnt anything wrong.

According to CIG the game has already been released indeed, in early access, in 2016: When a UK citizen filed for a County Court Judgement against CIG demanding a refund around a year ago or so, CIG claimed the game had been released as early access in 2016 and therefore a refund wasn't warranted.

Here an extract of the response by CIG to the refund claim:

“Star Citizen” is a community-funded online video game project which was launched in early development in 2012 and moved into (playable Alpha) Early Access in 2016.

I don´t know how many more posts I need to be able to post links but maybe I can pass them to someone else via pm if interested.

[gondrin]

According to you a scam is a game you can play right now and has more content than many others currently available and you barely even need to spend 50 bucks on the game to play it. You are seriously delusional at this point.

Crewing a ship in a game is far different to crewing a ship in real life, the number for max crew is real life estimate to run a ship 24hrs a day, i know what im talking about you are just talking nonsense. You will never need max crew on the large ships ever as most ppl will have nothing to do most of the time.

I come to waste the time of posters who cant do anything other than hate other projects, just like your only reason is to show your clear lack of knowledge about everything.

Hmm, FF14(since it is an MMO and comparable due to that) has far more content then this and has been in active development, since you know, it is an MMO, for as long as Star Citizen has been. Somehow, SE has released the game, re-released it due to problems, and released 4 full featured xpacs and the game is still growing in size.

Outside of the fact that Chris Roberts can't handle feature creep properly, there is no reason why the game is still in active alpha development with the bugs and problems that it comes with.

[kenn9530]

According to CIG the game has already been released indeed, in early access, in 2016: When a UK citizen filed for a County Court Judgement against CIG demanding a refund around a year ago or so, CIG claimed the game had been released as early access in 2016 and therefore a refund wasn't warranted.

Here an extract of the response by CIG to the refund claim:



I don´t know how many more posts I need to be able to post links but maybe I can pass them to someone else via pm if interested.

A version of it is technically released, i consider the current alpha as a game in its own right because it does offer a whole lot more than many games i have bought and played.

- - - Updated - - -

Hmm, FF14(since it is an MMO and comparable due to that) has far more content then this and has been in active development, since you know, it is an MMO, for as long as Star Citizen has been. Somehow, SE has released the game, re-released it due to problems, and released 4 full featured xpacs and the game is still growing in size.

Outside of the fact that Chris Roberts can't handle feature creep properly, there is no reason why the game is still in active alpha development with the bugs and problems that it comes with.

Content is subjective and a large amount of content for SC isnt in the game or fully complete yet, also SC doesnt have levels so all content will be relevant where games with levels older content becomes irrelevant. FF14 is also a completely different game and genre and has had multiple expansions to expand its systems and things to do and its been in development for 15-16 years including the previous version and expansion.

So you see no reason why its still in active development, you do know how large scale the game is right, it is many times larger than the largest games available, bugs dont all get fixed in an alpha and atm the game runs pretty good most of the time with little to no issues.

[Henako]

Content is subjective

No it is not.

[InfiniteCharger]

Technically it is a scam in the sense that people who are crowd funding it are expecting a finished product at some point. However, because of the wording around the campaign and how they have defined the game itself, they have made it impossible to defined "finished product". Basically, what they are calling finished product is basically some level of a working game, but not a finished product. So as long as they keep releasing something, no matter how small or large, they are delivering product, even if it isn't a working final product. Most people calling it a scam are doing so because they don't believe that all the promises will ever be kept because they are too grand and ambitious ever to be implemented, even with almost $1 Billion dollars invested.

Or put it this way, if you were a Venture Capitalist and someone asked you for hundreds of millions of dollars to invest in an advanced space sim with elements never seen before in gaming, based on cutting edge technology that has to be developed from scratch, that hasn't been proven to work or even tested, would you do it? The bar for investing in such a thing from a VC is a lot higher than what they have set for this crowdfunding campaign and a lot of people see it as a long shot no matter how they get their money.

[Kyanion]

Getting infracted in this thread by Edge is sort of the most hilarious things to be experienced considering how infractable it itself is.

Yup, when you have a mod engaging a person who says:

I come to waste the time of posters who cant do anything other than hate other projects, just like your only reason is to show your clear lack of knowledge about everything.

and no infraction happens it really baffles the mind as to what is going on in this thread.

- - - Updated - - -

The entire moderation here is crazy random, you have people getting infracted for harmless jokes, asking if the game is out already, quoting users who ask themselves for proof of their own dishonesty, and whatnot, meanwhile you have a guy who’s posting history consists on “YOU JUST KNOW DON’T KNOW ANYTHING!”, that just openly admitted that his here just to waste people time, and that’s entirely fucking fine…. Fun part is, by pointing this out, you are risking another infraction for discussing such topic here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I guess that is why this thread keeps on delivering in that the person in question hardly ever gets infracted despite being on the level of some of the more famous perma banned people on this site.

[Cloverfield]

A version of it is technically released, i consider the current alpha as a game in its own right because it does offer a whole lot more than many games i have bought and played.

According to CIG it is not just "technically" released but also commercially since it was used as legal argument to deny refunds. Although the market seems completely unawares of the fact. CIG has gone to great lengths to avoid a public admission of release. Shame, because the actual Early Access reviews could put that personal opinion of yours about its quality to the test. As it stands it is just your very personal view I am afraid.

[banmebaby]

"Best space game ever."