1. #15961
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I think being a troll is a safe bet not. Nothing with this much of a lack of self-awareness possesses the sapience to turn on a computer, I think.
    That or an AI program that is really terrible at it's task. Though it reminds me of this Joe Blobers person I've seen defend the game on some other sites. These people work really hard to defend the honor of SC on fansites and anywhere they can comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    He literally said he was here to waste people's time. If that isn't declaring yourself a troll, I don't know what is.
    And not infracted for it either, yet there was an infraction tossed out on someone else later. Declaring yourself a troll as they did should be an instant perma ban on this website. But nah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gondrin View Post
    In all seriousness, I wish them well. I really do. I just don't see it ever coming to fruition. Not at their pace. As I've stated, FF14 is a game that has multiple expansions, had a full core system redesign and literally did this in the past 10 years.

    The fact that SC can't even get a simple AI going(something even DOOM had back in the 90's) and the fact that core systems still are broken or outright missing.
    I mean after 10 years and almost 500 million dollars and that is what they have to show for it? A dated game with mobile game levels of broken AI. And it isn't like the near future gets any better for this game, they are years away if they ever get it. (which I'd bet money they never realize what they are trying to accomplish). And before the guard dog rushes to defend SC for not being the same game as FF14, need I remind them that SC is packaged as a MMO because it hosts up to ~100 players now. Hell they loved to compare SC to WoW/FF/Eve/Cyberpunk, any game that worked for them at the time.

  2. #15962
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    A scam takes your money and gives you nothing in return and the devs stop all support for it, you clearly dont have any idea on what is actually a scam or not... hating a company or person for developing a game that is pushing the boundries of game development makes no sense at all
    Not true. You clearly have never heard of Enron, Freddie Mac, Lehman Brothers, Theranos or the Fyre Festival. Much like CIG all those companies did give you something in return, but it was trash or extremely sub par stuff. While their respective leaders got rich with your money (before they were caught or defaulted). Also, like CIG, many of those thought (or rather made us think) that they were pushing the limits on what´s possible in their respective fields. Those who expressed doubts and pointed to the malpractices in those cases before their collapse were not "hating", they were just doing the right thing.
    Last edited by Cloverfield; 2022-08-07 at 09:00 AM.

  3. #15963
    "gives you nothing in return"

    An example of the nothing in return: https://store.steampowered.com/app/8...cension_Exile/

    Let me give you the TL,DR of it:

    - Project started in 2001.
    - Project shuts down in 2008, due the lack of funding.
    - Project restarts in 2012, with the Kickstarter fever.
    - First Kickstarter attempt fails.
    - Lead-Developer makes a nice speech about it.
    - ToA-Store opens up for business, selling inixistent items for an inixistent game.
    - Second Kickstarter attempt fails.
    - Lead-Developer jumps into damage control.
    - It Doesn't work, they start locking and deleting threads & posts.
    - Forum moderators get busy.
    - The Project goals get nerfed, and the little they had is thrown into Steam EA.

    During the first Kickstarter:
    We have experience. No, we don’t have a launched title under out belt (yet!) but we spent YEARS not just building a fully-functional prototype, but learning every angle of game development, from creating the pipelines and art/coding standards to proper testing methods (white, black, smoke, etc).
    After the second Kickstarter:
    The three original founders are not qualified to build ToA by ourselves. How’s that for a clear, blunt, and candid statement?

    We are not experts in engineering, animation, modeling, nor are we audio specialists. We are designers at heart. We each certainly have traits that lend to the support and structuring of ToA such as my web development, digital illustration and editing skills, Varl’s incredible ability to storytell and create the overaching consistent lore of the world and Loestri’s way with keeping our books in order and steering us clear of the many operational landmines we’ve avoided.
    Turns out the goal of the Kickstarters & donations, was to hire someone to make the game for them, as none of the 3 developers knew any basic programming, with the cash they got from the store, they hired one guy that eventually left as soon as the money started running out, meanwhile the 3 lead-developers couldn't even figure out how to turn on their own servers for the players.

    Im under NDA so I cant talk about the other expenses, but ill shoot out this number since I was given permission and I think you guys deserve to know where your money was spent in a very specific way. I have nothing to hide.


    I was paid 23,000 last year at a rate of initially 500/week, 4 months later increased to 700/week. This year I was payed again 700/wk untill 2/18. I Left FC one day before the KS campaign started because me and the three owners had some disagreements/trust issues. After I left, I still consulted with them over a few things like teaching Yevi/Brax how to turn on the servers and as well as fixing some left over bugs.

    In total its been just about $28,500 pre-tax.
    - After around 1 year in Steam EA without updates, the project shuts down.
    - In 2020 a guy by the name of "Parthuin", supposedly buys them the IP.
    - Today this is how it looks like...

    Still on sale at Steam EA today, let's read some of the positive reviews about it, shall we?

    I have to start out by saying I am very biased. I've been following this development team for about 15 years. Originally they were planning to make an MMO and I absolutely loved their design ideas.

    A skill based progression system instead of levels so you could specialize the way you wanted.

    A perma-death over time system so there was real risk in the game and nobody could be on top forever and you'd have the opportunity to start fresh and try something new as in rogue-like games.

    A ton of races including dragons and set up so there would be real conflict and asymmetric power levels.

    Deep settlement building, crafting, and religious systems.

    I participated on their forums, I was even a moderator for a while. I've chatted with the developers in chat rooms and private messages. I pledged to the kickstarters for the MMO that ultimately failed. I donated money through the website so they were able to develop a demo for their second kickstarter. I watched disappointed fans turn away and trolls heap hate on them for being fake devs. I also watched them never give up. They have vision and passion and drive and integrity. They've never promised anything they couldn't deliver.

    And eventually they said, "We are not giving up. We're not abandoning the fans who donated money to us and believed in us." And they started developing ToA: Exile, a survival game using some of the same mechanics they had planned for the MMO. Their goal was to make an enjoyable survival game that can stand on its own merits, and, if it does well enough, eventually get back to work on the MMO we were all waiting for for so long.

    As a prior supporter and active community member, I was invited to help alpha test Exile once it was far enough along. I've enjoyed every minute of testing and I'm thrilled the game is launching in Early Access now. It's definitely Early Access, there's no doubt about that. But it's also definitely fun to play as it is, and if you get it now you'll have the opportunity to give your feedback to a development team that I can promise is open to constructive criticism and works hard to make necessary changes to the code and design.

    If you like skill based progression, a deep crafting system, or if playing as a giant spider or trying to raise a dragon from weakling to powerhouse sounds interesting to you; or if you want to host your own server for you and your friends and customize it to your liking, what are you waiting for?! This game is for you!
    So, I have been following this game for a few years. And while I have a small amount of hours on it, that is because in its current state its not something I would want to sink a whole lot of time into. Servers may get reset, playerbase is a tad small, and my schedual does not align with peak times.

    But I will say that this is a game I want to play once those issues are fixed. The graphics are absolutely beautiful, a tiny island has so much packed on it, and the 3 races, while bare for now, definatly have the obvious room for growth.

    The game is going under severe balance changes, expansion, and overall continued development. The staff is very active while talking to others, and is very open to positive and negative feedback. If this game were meant to be a cash grab, I think they would of taken the investment opportunities a while ago from bigger banks.

    As of right now, I do not advise diving head first into the game, but I do recomend picking it up now, just incase they ever decide to increase the price, and save it for later as I am. There is growth to be had, and I imagine in early 2019 next year, there will absolutely be a better world to explore.
    This has been a great game with lots of promise. I would love to see it move beyond the concept into a heavily-played game, but I think the devs just didn't figure out the right mix. It was also plagued by not enough game on release, and not enough
    exposure (no big name to push it). The best part was we did it the way we wanted to do it, instead of it being pushed out by
    some publisher in a broken fashion
    .

    I will always miss the concept of this game, but may never find the implementation that is better than this one.
    One way another, these guys were also clearly developing and investing on the project, and they still do have something to show for it, so was this a scam or not then?
    Last edited by banmebaby; 2022-08-07 at 09:38 AM.
    "A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with said person or organization. A shill may also act to discredit opponents or critics of the person or organization in which they have a vested interest."
    Exhibit A & Exhibit B

  4. #15964
    Decent post on spectrum, that'll probably get deleted or something when the weekend ends:
    Thats the most popular faulty argument:
    "The released game will attract alot more players"
    Thats not necessarily the case. The game has had ALOT of publicity. Everybody knows SC. It is reasonable to assume that a significant portion of players who are interested in the game already own it, especially the further along the development goes. The same goes for Squadron42. A released (and successful) squadron would increase morals in the dev-team alot and also redeem lost trust in CIG² but I would not expect player numbers to rise by alot. In the end Star Citizen is a niche product in a niche genre inside a niche setting. It's a very specific kind of game with alot of popular mechanics missing entirely. There is no progression, no rpg-mechanics, it's not casual at all and every game session requires alot of time. There is no endgame, there's nothing to achieve, there is no empire building. There is supposed to be a universe to explore (which wont happen³) and dynamic missions and events in a living breathing universe. Thats fancy words for "open world pvp" which are fancy words for "gankfest".
    Not saying that a released, finished and working SC will be bad. But it's never gonna win any popularity contest because it's targeting a very small (but dedicated) core audience.

    The released game will however kill the one thing that SC has going for it: The Dream. Everyone here has a slightly different picture of what exactly SC will be. Thats because CIG never nailed that one down while doing a marvellous job at marketing the game that not only does EVERYTHING but also is beautiful. But the dream dies at the moment the "alpha" tag disappears.

    Edit: And yes a big player base also results in more microtransactions. I do not know how much the running cost of a MMO like SC will be once it actually is a MMO. I do know however that every MMO that does not have some kind of subscription model failed miserably within a fairly short time. All the long term sucessful MMOs have a subscription model. EVE and WOW are going strong for almost 2 decades now. ESO and Final Fantasy Online are doing fairly well too. That means microtransactions are usually not enough to keep the show going in the long run.

    ²Redeeming lost trust does not result in new players but returning old ones who have already payed.

    ³We already know the 100 star systems are a fantasy and wont happen. 5-6 sounds about right (and thats still 5-6 times more than we have now). Right now it takes you a less than a week to visit every point of interest in stanton. Probably far less without all the gamebreaking bugs but we'll go with a decent casual week. So 5-6 weeks until the most anticipated profession runs out of content in the released game. Cool.
    I see nothing but reality here.

    But then you also get posts like this...
    Says backer that pledge just a couple of months ago. LOL. Was your head up your ass or is this just an alt account for trolling?
    Why do people believe that their length of backing matters at all when it comes to talking about the game? It literally has no meaning to anything.

  5. #15965
    I kinda disagree with the start tho, I have no evidence to back it up but I assume a significant portion of potential players do not own SC and are waiting for an actual game to be delivered before diving in. Why? Because I'm one of them.

    I didn't back SC at the time (nothing against SC, I don't back anything really) and I'm waiting for a product to buy. I would buy Sq42 if it comes out and is decent, I've played all the other stuff, and would atleast be interested in checking out SC itself.

    But I have no interest is buying a technical pre-alpha demo and a dream.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  6. #15966
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I kinda disagree with the start tho, I have no evidence to back it up but I assume a significant portion of potential players do not own SC and are waiting for an actual game to be delivered before diving in. Why? Because I'm one of them.

    I didn't back SC at the time (nothing against SC, I don't back anything really) and I'm waiting for a product to buy. I would buy Sq42 if it comes out and is decent, I've played all the other stuff, and would atleast be interested in checking out SC itself.

    But I have no interest is buying a technical pre-alpha demo and a dream.
    I actually agree that there are probably plenty of people just waiting for SC to not be a complete mess and actually release. But I agree with the other post in that I don't think it will be a lot. By the time it actually get around to release, I imagine that number will be even smaller because some just lost interest after so long.

  7. #15967
    Quote Originally Posted by Ausr View Post
    Little to nothing in return to keep you coming back. Where did I ever use the word "hate?" And more PR bullshit. Save it, kid.

    Everyone but you understands the crew thing. Holy fucking shit. If you didn't already report me for calling you a genius (laughable, who gives a fuck about infractions. I'll happily take it), I'd repeat it but I guess I can't. Too many fragile people on mmochamp.
    You have already been proven wrong time and time again because there is a large playerbase that is constantly playing the game even in an alpha so there is plenty to keep you coming back and every new big patch adds even more new stuff so everything you have said is nonsense. If you spend so much time insulting things about a project then it is hate plain and simple.

    You simply dont understand what crew you can fit on a ship is not what you need to operate it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverfield View Post
    Not true. You clearly have never heard of Enron, Freddie Mac, Lehman Brothers, Theranos or the Fyre Festival. Much like CIG all those companies did give you something in return, but it was trash or extremely sub par stuff. While their respective leaders got rich with your money (before they were caught or defaulted). Also, like CIG, many of those thought (or rather made us think) that they were pushing the limits on what´s possible in their respective fields. Those who expressed doubts and pointed to the malpractices in those cases before their collapse were not "hating", they were just doing the right thing.
    No a scam is something that is clear the devs have either put bare min effort in and ditched or didnt even release anything in the first place, star citizen shows a reasonable portion of it work with the community to play test and constantly gives more and more, star citizen shows the community the effort it is putting into developing the game, a scam just ignores that or fakes it.

    If you dont push boundries and limitations you dont get evolution, not everything will work in a game but what does work will lead to better things in the games industry.

  8. #15968
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I kinda disagree with the start tho, I have no evidence to back it up but I assume a significant portion of potential players do not own SC and are waiting for an actual game to be delivered before diving in. Why? Because I'm one of them.

    I didn't back SC at the time (nothing against SC, I don't back anything really) and I'm waiting for a product to buy. I would buy Sq42 if it comes out and is decent, I've played all the other stuff, and would atleast be interested in checking out SC itself.

    But I have no interest is buying a technical pre-alpha demo and a dream.
    Majority of "early access" release games show otherwise. Official launch attracts a small peak of new players, but is mostly a blip.

  9. #15969
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    Majority of "early access" release games show otherwise. Official launch attracts a small peak of new players, but is mostly a blip.
    Those games have an actual game to show in early access.
    SC does not (yet), and that is not even counting SQ42.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  10. #15970
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    You have already been proven wrong time and time again because there is a large playerbase that is constantly playing the game even in an alpha so there is plenty to keep you coming back and every new big patch adds even more new stuff so everything you have said is nonsense. If you spend so much time insulting things about a project then it is hate plain and simple.

    You simply dont understand what crew you can fit on a ship is not what you need to operate it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No a scam is something that is clear the devs have either put bare min effort in and ditched or didnt even release anything in the first place, star citizen shows a reasonable portion of it work with the community to play test and constantly gives more and more, star citizen shows the community the effort it is putting into developing the game, a scam just ignores that or fakes it.

    If you dont push boundries and limitations you dont get evolution, not everything will work in a game but what does work will lead to better things in the games industry.
    You haven't proven shit. Hell, the people that do link things show how terrible SC is doing, even to fucking retro games. Oh cool, a big patch that adds.... go karts. For a space game.

    Yep, good development choices.

    I clearly understand what a min. crew is and a max. crew means. You had and still have to have it explained to you and still get wrong. Pretty sure brainfuck dead monkeys would get it quicker.
    Just don't reply to me. Please. If you can help it.

  11. #15971
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    No a scam is something that is clear the devs have either put bare min effort in and ditched or didnt even release anything in the first place, star citizen shows a reasonable portion of it work with the community to play test and constantly gives more and more, star citizen shows the community the effort it is putting into developing the game, a scam just ignores that or fakes it.

    If you dont push boundries and limitations you dont get evolution, not everything will work in a game but what does work will lead to better things in the games industry.
    Again not true. Companies like Enron, Freddie Mac, Lehman Brothers, Theranos or the Fyre Festival also showed their work and effort with their markets. In many of those cases the effort was truly significant, including hundreds (or even thousands) of people in their payrolls. But that did not change the equation that in all those cases the result of that effort was trash or extremely sub par stuff. While their respective leaders got rich with your money (before they were caught or defaulted). And as mentioned, also, like CIG, many of those thought (or rather made us think) that they were pushing boundaries and limitations on what´s possible in their respective fields. That make belief was quintessential for their schemes.
    Last edited by Cloverfield; 2022-08-08 at 07:01 AM.

  12. #15972
    Quote Originally Posted by Ausr View Post
    You haven't proven shit. Hell, the people that do link things show how terrible SC is doing, even to fucking retro games. Oh cool, a big patch that adds.... go karts. For a space game.

    Yep, good development choices.

    I clearly understand what a min. crew is and a max. crew means. You had and still have to have it explained to you and still get wrong. Pretty sure brainfuck dead monkeys would get it quicker.
    You are clearly unable to prove its a scam, you have been proven time and time again its not a scam, the current alpha alone makes everything you said irrelevant since no scam would give a game of the current alpha SCs substance in the first place, they are also expanding the company even further with brand new offices to support many more employees to expand the company even further.

    You clearly dont understand what max crew actually means, max crew is just what is ship is able to support, not actually what it takes to operate the ship at 100%, 80 crew in a javelin would be at least 2-3 shift rotations on realistic operation,

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverfield View Post
    Again not true. Companies like Enron, Freddie Mac, Lehman Brothers, Theranos or the Fyre Festival also showed their work and effort with their markets. In many of those cases the effort was truly significant, including hundreds (or even thousands) of people in their payrolls. But that did not change the equation that in all those cases the result of that effort was trash or extremely sub par stuff. While their respective leaders got rich with your money (before they were caught or defaulted). And as mentioned, also, like CIG, many of those thought (or rather made us think) that they were pushing boundaries and limitations on what´s possible in their respective fields. That make belief was quintessential for their schemes.
    No a scam basically does the bare min to get the customers and takes the money and runs, CiG are pushing out tons of content and what is essentially a game in its own right as it stands now, they are also expanding thier company further, a scam would not do this since they wouldnt waste money on it.

    Just the current version of the alpha proves without any doubt that this is not a scam, we have clearly seen the progress evolve massively over the course of its development.

  13. #15973
    How in the ever living fuck are we still on what "max crew" means?! Jesus wept.

    The answer is 80, it has always been 80, the official source says it is 80, the correct answer will remain 80. Accept that you're wrong and move the fuck on.

  14. #15974
    Hi, I was thinking about buying this game to play but i dont like early access, when does the finished version come out?

  15. #15975
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    Hi, I was thinking about buying this game to play but i dont like early access, when does the finished version come out?
    2016. Everything onwards is just a bonus.

  16. #15976
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    How in the ever living fuck are we still on what "max crew" means?! Jesus wept.

    The answer is 80, it has always been 80, the official source says it is 80, the correct answer will remain 80. Accept that you're wrong and move the fuck on.
    It really is mind boggling of all the things to argue over, kenn is going after crew sizes despite what CIG has on their own ship page for the freaking ship. The rest of their post is just the same regurgitated badly written AI created nonsense.

  17. #15977
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    It really is mind boggling of all the things to argue over, kenn is going after crew sizes despite what CIG has on their own ship page for the freaking ship. The rest of their post is just the same regurgitated badly written AI created nonsense.
    Because he has nothing else, he's not interested in actual conversation about the game. He'll instead latch onto 1/2 things that he can argue about forever, no matter how wrong he always ends up being. For all his claims about how people don't understand the game, he always manages to show a surprising lack of knowledge himself.

    And, as he literally said, he's only here to troll.

  18. #15978
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Because he has nothing else, he's not interested in actual conversation about the game. He'll instead latch onto 1/2 things that he can argue about forever, no matter how wrong he always ends up being. For all his claims about how people don't understand the game, he always manages to show a surprising lack of knowledge himself.

    And, as he literally said, he's only here to troll.
    Pretty much. I am beginning to wonder if it is just someone using a terribly designed AI to respond to posts haha, cause when someone new shows up and asks a question he is ready with the same type of spiel each time. It is so sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    I come to waste the time of posters who cant do anything other than hate other projects, just like your only reason is to show your clear lack of knowledge about everything.
    No moderation needed of course.

  19. #15979
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    someone using a terribly designed AI to respond to posts haha
    Hummmm... everything is starting to make sense now...
    "A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with said person or organization. A shill may also act to discredit opponents or critics of the person or organization in which they have a vested interest."
    Exhibit A & Exhibit B

  20. #15980
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    No a scam basically does the bare min to get the customers and takes the money and runs, CiG are pushing out tons of content and what is essentially a game in its own right as it stands now, they are also expanding thier company further, a scam would not do this since they wouldnt waste money on it.

    Just the current version of the alpha proves without any doubt that this is not a scam, we have clearly seen the progress evolve massively over the course of its development.
    Again not true. Companies like Enron, Freddie Mac, Lehman Brothers, Theranos or the Fyre Festival did also showed their work and "content" with their markets, over many years in some cases. In many of those cases the effort was truly significant, including hundreds (or even thousands) of people in their payrolls.

    They didnt take the money and "run" either, they milked the market for as long as they could, until they were caught or defaulted. In some cases we are talking around a decade, like CIG.

    But that did not change the equation that in all those cases, including SC which is basically a broken tech demo, the result of that effort was trash or extremely sub par stuff. While their respective leaders got rich with your money (before they were caught or defaulted).
    Last edited by Cloverfield; 2022-08-08 at 06:08 PM.

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