[Megathread] Star Citizen

[Edge-]

They have not spent a decade working on server meshing and no company is going to be able to do what CiG can do with thier tech, the first step to server meshing was introduced in 2018, at most they have been working on it since a few years prior, work on developing a game comes first before server meshing could even start, since they cant begin without an adequate baseline.

Most games dont offer the gameplay that takes more than a small group of players and even then many games have performance issues due to the amount of players in one area, star citizen is offering gameplay that will use a large amount of players working together while most other games dont, so its needed for star citizen and the tech could help other MMOs in the future.

How long have they spent working on it, then?

Why would any company want to do what CIG is doing with their implementation of server meshing when there are tons of cheaper, effective alternatives that don't require years and years of R&D and testing while still being a ways off?

Plenty of games allow for large groups of players to gather together, and like most games the biggest bottlenecks when that happens is the client side needing to render all those players and animations etc. etc.

What other MMO's would benefit from this tech? How? Why haven't any developers pursued it prior to CIG?

[kenn9530]

How long have they spent working on it, then?

Why would any company want to do what CIG is doing with their implementation of server meshing when there are tons of cheaper, effective alternatives that don't require years and years of R&D and testing while still being a ways off?

Plenty of games allow for large groups of players to gather together, and like most games the biggest bottlenecks when that happens is the client side needing to render all those players and animations etc. etc.

What other MMO's would benefit from this tech? How? Why haven't any developers pursued it prior to CIG?

Object container streaming was the first step and the concept and prototype began jan 2016, they implemented the client side OCS in 2018, server side OCS in 2019.

Why would a company want a system they can adjust to handle as many players as they want and to cut down actually wasting server resources, large ships being thier own server, its pretty logical why this tech is important. There is no alternatives that would work for a large space game otherwise they would of done it.

Any MMO could benefit from the tech, but many companies dont want to develop new tech, they prefer sticking to old formulas, the gaming industry needs companies to innovate and push for evolving games to the next level or we get stuck with the same boring games.

[Edge-]

Why would a company want a system they can adjust to handle as many players as they want and to cut down actually wasting server resources, large ships being thier own server, its pretty logical why this tech is important. There is no alternatives that would work for a large space game otherwise they would of done it.

This is pure fantasy. It hasn't been done because, largely, it's not financially feasible or practical given the many alternative solutions that achieve similar ends at a fraction of the financial and time cost.

Why would other developers want to invest arguably as much time and budget on a single piece of tech as they would on the rest of their game?

Any MMO could benefit from the tech, but many companies dont want to develop new tech, they prefer sticking to old formulas, the gaming industry needs companies to innovate and push for evolving games to the next level or we get stuck with the same boring games.

Most MMO's would not meaningfully benefit from this tech as the way they're designed, it's wholly unnecessary.

[kenn9530]

This is pure fantasy. It hasn't been done because, largely, it's not financially feasible or practical given the many alternative solutions that achieve similar ends at a fraction of the financial and time cost.

Why would other developers want to invest arguably as much time and budget on a single piece of tech as they would on the rest of their game?



Most MMO's would not meaningfully benefit from this tech as the way they're designed, it's wholly unnecessary.

The team working on it is pretty small, its not like they are devoting a large amount of staff and money on just developing one part of the system, atm there is 10 staff dedicated to persistant streaming and server mesh, so its no different than any other MMO preparing thier game to work as good as it can. So in reality not as much money has been spent developing this tech than you think.

The tech alone would reduce the amount of servers you need to have active running the game, it can scale MMOs to actually have relevant large scale content because the game can actually do it properly without performance issues.

Most MMOs have dedicated servers always running regardless of player activity, star citizens server meshing removes all these servers running for no reason and scales it with how many players are active.

[Edge-]

The team working on it is pretty small, its not like they are devoting a large amount of staff and money on just developing one part of the system, atm there is 10 staff dedicated to persistant streaming and server mesh, so its no different than any other MMO preparing thier game to work as good as it can. So in reality not as much money has been spent developing this tech than you think.

The tech alone would reduce the amount of servers you need to have active running the game, it can scale MMOs to actually have relevant large scale content because the game can actually do it properly without performance issues.

Most MMOs have dedicated servers always running regardless of player activity, star citizens server meshing removes all these servers running for no reason and scales it with how many players are active.

10 engineers is not a small team working on a single piece of tech. And spending years on a single project that still has no end in sight is a significant investment, as I've said. It's absolutely different than what other developers have done with their games in development, as you like to point out when singing the praises of CIG.

MMO's already have larger scale content and performance bottlenecks are more often on the user side than the server side. To-wit, gathering the volumes of players you're talking about (hundreds) together in a single location at the same time is a herculean task. For context, the hardest boss in WildStar's raiding wasn't in the game, it was straight up trying to get 40 people on at the same time to run the raid to begin with. So this kind of capacity might be entirely pointless as there is never any need to make use of the fancy tech.

MMO's having always running servers? Yes, so will Star Citizen. Some servers will likely always be active given where they're simulating in the game. Other MMO's absolutely have dynamic, on-demand scaling that can spin up/down additional capacity as needed. GW2 is a good example of this as it can spin up/down as many instances of a zone as needed depending on how many players are there.

CIG isn't "turning off servers" as far as I know, the servers are still there, just not being used so they're taking up less resources while idling.

[Ausr]

And what do you know, game dev kenn? You know what CIG spoonfeeds you and you believe it.

Weird how how he has this supposed knowledge of how things work and yet none of us know things work or do not. Like his current talk with Edge.

[banmebaby]

atm there is 10 staff dedicated to persistant streaming and server mesh

Source???

[Kyanion]

Weird how how he has this supposed knowledge of how things work and yet none of us know things work or do not. Like his current talk with Edge.

Yup, just as weird how he says one thing then soon after says the opposite. Whatever SC needs it is. Whatever it isn't it will be.

[ldev]

So according to you who knows nothing about game development its easy to create architecture that will allow hundreds if not thousands of players to play in the same area and retain good gameplay performance, CiG have nothing to do with the physical servers as amazon own all the servers they use, its all the backend server architecture that even companies like blizz still not able to be completely free of issues.

If it was easy to setup proper server meshing other companies would have done it by now, server meshing would improve most MMOs that allow a reasonable amount of players in the same area yet they dont do it.

You have constantly shown you dont know anything about the games development and talk complete nonsense and you have never once shown to be competent at anything to do with games design as is proven by your clear lack of any knowledge to do with everything about the subject, you dont even know the basic things and you have already been proven wrong on multiple things you have said, while you have been unable to refute anything i have said, thats the very definition of someone who is incompetant at knowing even the most basics of games development so noone is going to believe anything that comes out of your mouth, you have no idea about anything to do with star citizen when you cant even bring up basic correct information, you will never win an argument when you always present wrong information.

[- Zephox -]

You have constantly shown you dont know anything about the games development and talk complete nonsense and you have never once shown to be competent at anything to do with games design as is proven by your clear lack of any knowledge to do with everything about the subject, you dont even know the basic things and you have already been proven wrong on multiple things you have said, while you have been unable to refute anything i have said, thats the very definition of someone who is incompetant at knowing even the most basics of games development so noone is going to believe anything that comes out of your mouth, you have no idea about anything to do with star citizen when you cant even bring up basic correct information, you will never win an argument when you always present wrong information.

You should add a Scottish accent to that and you would be spot on like him!

[kenn9530]

10 engineers is not a small team working on a single piece of tech. And spending years on a single project that still has no end in sight is a significant investment, as I've said. It's absolutely different than what other developers have done with their games in development, as you like to point out when singing the praises of CIG.

MMO's already have larger scale content and performance bottlenecks are more often on the user side than the server side. To-wit, gathering the volumes of players you're talking about (hundreds) together in a single location at the same time is a herculean task. For context, the hardest boss in WildStar's raiding wasn't in the game, it was straight up trying to get 40 people on at the same time to run the raid to begin with. So this kind of capacity might be entirely pointless as there is never any need to make use of the fancy tech.

MMO's having always running servers? Yes, so will Star Citizen. Some servers will likely always be active given where they're simulating in the game. Other MMO's absolutely have dynamic, on-demand scaling that can spin up/down additional capacity as needed. GW2 is a good example of this as it can spin up/down as many instances of a zone as needed depending on how many players are there.

CIG isn't "turning off servers" as far as I know, the servers are still there, just not being used so they're taking up less resources while idling.

Out of 700-800 staff 10 is a small team working on a major part of a game, 10 ppl are not going to be working on it 24/7 ppl have days off.

Star Citizen can already handle 150 players in the same area and its not even properly optimised yet and its not even using server meshing tech.

The way star citizen is going to work is the servers are only active with the players, parts of the solar system wont even load into the server if no players are near it so it will save on having servers running just incase a player heads that way, each player will essential be its own mini server and servers will merge when players are close to each other, everything will dynamically load in depending on player position and it will phase out when not needed anymore and run in the background simulation instead.

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You have constantly shown you dont know anything about the games development and talk complete nonsense and you have never once shown to be competent at anything to do with games design as is proven by your clear lack of any knowledge to do with everything about the subject, you dont even know the basic things and you have already been proven wrong on multiple things you have said, while you have been unable to refute anything i have said, thats the very definition of someone who is incompetant at knowing even the most basics of games development so noone is going to believe anything that comes out of your mouth, you have no idea about anything to do with star citizen when you cant even bring up basic correct information, you will never win an argument when you always present wrong information.

My information is correct, it is your information that is proven to be wrong since my information is easily found from the devs own information, you are not compentant at anything to do with development as you have shown time and time again.

[Shakzor]

So, quite literally what Edge stated already existed in other games in the post you quoted. Cool.

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You're the guy that argued for pages about how many people was "max" for a ship. You don't even understand the company's own words. You don't know anything about gamedev beyond what you read on CiG's website/watch in CiG's videos. You know only what they tell you.

Let's not forget the huge post about contradicting himself numerous times. Just that alone shows that one does indeed, not know something.
Contradicting yourself over and over and over does not exactly scream "but muh many smarts and noledg!!" and especially arguing AGAINST literal information provided CIG themselves (your max crew example)

[kenn9530]

Let's not forget the huge post about contradicting himself numerous times. Just that alone shows that one does indeed, not know something.
Contradicting yourself over and over and over does not exactly scream "but muh many smarts and noledg!!" and especially arguing AGAINST literal information provided CIG themselves (your max crew example)

There is no max crew in a game, there is min amount to man all the stations and there is the amount of players you can actually fit on a ship, a javelin could easily hold the current max player count on the server at 150 players, you do know the websites information is just a rough guideline of what they think a real ship would need and not what a game needs, also many of the stats on many ships are not correct on the website because they are always changing.

Just like the 890 jump says max 8 crew, you would need more than 8 crew to man a luxury ship esorting high paying clients, what about security, personal butlers and such, the information on the website for ship stats means very little, if you think it backs up your point you are sadly mistaken. Ships can have as much crew as you want or fit on it.

You obviously dont understand what contradiction actually means since you are using it incorrectly.

[Kyanion]

Let's not forget the huge post about contradicting himself numerous times. Just that alone shows that one does indeed, not know something.
Contradicting yourself over and over and over does not exactly scream "but muh many smarts and noledg!!" and especially arguing AGAINST literal information provided CIG themselves (your max crew example)

There is no max crew in a game, there is min amount to man all the stations and there is the amount of players you can actually fit on a ship

Oh jesus you got him started on crew sizes again where he can once again prove he is willfully ignorant.

[banmebaby]

Oh boy there we go again...

the largest ship in the game needs a min crew of 37 and max crew of 80

They will be able to be fully manned once the systems to support it are inplace but large ships can still be fully operated with a fraction of the max crew limit

You dont know what max crew means, max simply means the amount of ppl who could live on the ship, not who could fit on the ship or actually operate the ship at 100%, this is a game it does not take 80 men to operate a javelin.

There is no max crew in a game

You obviously dont understand what contradiction actually means since you are using it incorrectly.

[Kyanion]

Oh boy there we go again...

Haha oh lord, that is just the tip of the iceberg too. Jesus what a walking contradiction of posts they are. So easy to watch himself shoot himself in the foot over and over and over again.

[ldev]

You should add a Scottish accent to that and you would be spot on like him!

That's literally a bunch of his responses.

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My information is correct, it is your information that is proven to be wrong since my information is easily found from the devs own information, you are not compentant at anything to do with development as you have shown time and time again.

You have constantly shown you dont know anything about the games development and talk complete nonsense and you have never once shown to be competent at anything to do with games design as is proven by your clear lack of any knowledge to do with everything about the subject, you dont even know the basic things and you have already been proven wrong on multiple things you have said, while you have been unable to refute anything i have said, thats the very definition of someone who is incompetant at knowing even the most basics of games development so noone is going to believe anything that comes out of your mouth, you have no idea about anything to do with star citizen when you cant even bring up basic correct information, you will never win an argument when you always present wrong information where's my information is correct, it is your information that is proven to be wrong since my information is easily found from the devs own information, you are not compentant at anything to do with development as you have shown time and time again.

[Thestrawman]

Oh boy there we go again...

Don't worry he'll just make up new roles for imaginary people like body guards and butlers.

[kenn9530]

That's literally a bunch of his responses.

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You have constantly shown you dont know anything about the games development and talk complete nonsense and you have never once shown to be competent at anything to do with games design as is proven by your clear lack of any knowledge to do with everything about the subject, you dont even know the basic things and you have already been proven wrong on multiple things you have said, while you have been unable to refute anything i have said, thats the very definition of someone who is incompetant at knowing even the most basics of games development so noone is going to believe anything that comes out of your mouth, you have no idea about anything to do with star citizen when you cant even bring up basic correct information, you will never win an argument when you always present wrong information where's my information is correct, it is your information that is proven to be wrong since my information is easily found from the devs own information, you are not compentant at anything to do with development as you have shown time and time again.

No you have shown you are completely ignorant of game development, you dont even know the basics or even what CiG is actually developing, good luck always being wrong, you are never going to win an argument since i dont believe one thing that comes out your mouth. At this point you are nothing but boring, you provide no intectual value in any of your responses that are even worth replying to anymore, your responses are a vain attempt at an insult nothing more.

[qwerty123456]

^LoL^

ten chars.