1. #16301
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    full development has been around 6 years for the game
    ... and there we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    hes been working on this project since around 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    development didn't properly start till early 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The game has only been in proper development for around 5 years
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The company was not fully manned until 2017, full development has only been going on the past 2 years
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    in reality its been 7-8 years development which for a game of this scale is not really that long and within about a year SQ42 should be in the final polishing phase.
    You just can't really keep track of your own bullshit, do you?
    "A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with said person or organization. A shill may also act to discredit opponents or critics of the person or organization in which they have a vested interest."
    Exhibit A & Exhibit B

  2. #16302
    Naturally the company aiming to release two games in 2014 had no resourcing of note prior to 2014.

    This makes total sense.

  3. #16303
    Quote Originally Posted by Golgot View Post
    Naturally the company aiming to release two games in 2014 had no resourcing of note prior to 2014.

    This makes total sense.
    It was one game origionally with no planet tech, the community voted and the game then was pushed into 2 games including an MMO, some posters here seem to think its reasonable to just assume to make a single player game which was the origional game in the kickstarter and an MMO in just a few years, the game doubled/tripled in size and a hundred more ships have been added to the game, we are getting a more complete space experience now it just takes longer to develop, better to wait a longer time than never get another game even close to star citizen because if star citizen failed then no company would risk making it for decades.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  4. #16304
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    It was one game origionally with no planet tech, the community voted and the game then was pushed into 2 games including an MMO, some posters here seem to think its reasonable to just assume to make a single player game which was the origional game in the kickstarter and an MMO in just a few years, the game doubled/tripled in size and a hundred more ships have been added to the game, we are getting a more complete space experience now it just takes longer to develop, better to wait a longer time than never get another game even close to star citizen because if star citizen failed then no company would risk making it for decades.
    Sounds like a classic case of gross mismanagement and another reason why, sometimes, you should just ignore your community.

  5. #16305
    Quote Originally Posted by banmebaby View Post
    You just can't really keep track of your own bullshit, do you?
    You'd think that kind of shit would be banable here, but no.

  6. #16306
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    It would have been out by now. That game was only in development for 12 years.
    And the reviews were merely mixed in the end. https://store.steampowered.com/app/5...Nukem_Forever/

    SC doesn't even have a steam page yet, so they have no plans to release within the year i guess.
    They may be going for the record of a game with the longest development cycle.

    Last week saw a milestone in videogame history: the release of Duke Nukem Forever (360, PS3, PC), a project delayed so long that it became a running joke. Originally conceived in 1996, DNF took 15 years to reach market, making it likely the longest development period for any game to date.
    Assuming halflife 3 wasn't in development already - but kept under wraps.
    Though they still need to finish halflife 2...
    Last edited by bbr; 2022-09-23 at 06:16 AM.

  7. #16307
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Doesnt matter if its crowdfunded or anything the money still comes from the same place
    It does indeed matter, quite a bit, and in the case of CIG the money comes from a very different place than regular companies. Regular companies get their own funds from selling previous existing and released products, asking for loans (that need to be repaid) or from equity raising (in exchange of company/board control, and sometimes even agreed returns). CIG has no existing released products (unless you agree SC has already released), has no major loans to speak of (at least compared to the 500 millions raised from our pockets), and has no major issues with equity (unless we think Chris Roberts has conceded major CIG control to the Calders in exchange for their investment).

    If a regular company spends its own money in a project that fails they take the full hit of the loss. Not us. That is money they had that they could have spent in other better projects but didn't, and that can cost them dearly in a large number of ways, including but not limited to loan defaults, potential loss of board control (in addition to the obvious loss of revenue in the case of better alternative project for the owned resources), loss of future contracts etc.

    CIG and Chris Roberts in particular on the other hand do not stand to lose much money on this venture as the money they have used in it was ours to start with (those 500 millions didn't come from sales of released products, loans or equity raising), and they set out to do a single and very specific project with all of it (i.e. no alternative projects possible). All the risk of failure is on us. We lose our money, CIG's on the other hand does not lose any money unless you think SC has been released already in which case revenues post release would be indeed earned and owned by CIG.

    In fact Chris Roberts does not only lose no money, but he actually gets away probably several millions richer and that after zero products released in 10+ years:

    Remuneration to the highest paid director: £292,322 in 2020, up from £283,192
    And that is just Erin Roberts in the UK. That is around US$375,000 for 2020. Now you can imagine the salaries Chris Roberts and Ortwin pay themselves, plus Sandi... And that in a company that allegedly hasn't released a single product yet and is still crowdfunding. It is just truly remarkable.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    they asked the backers if they wanted to expand the game further and thats what they got.
    That is SC urban myth and unfortunately incorrect I am afraid. I believe you have misunderstood what happened with those "consultations". Do you have a link?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    You cant develop a game with no money, resources or staff so development didnt really start in 2010, you are the one showing complete ignorance of basic things that are easy to understand, they needed the kickstarter to actually develop the game thats the whole point in a kickstarter because without money there is no game, full development is when they really start developing a game fully with having enough staff and tools to get things done and thats at most 6 years.
    Most new projects, in game development or elsewhere, usually start with small teams, concept teams, exploring ideas and defining early scope. As some of the chunks of the work get approved it starts to receive further funding and the project teams grow naturally and gradually etc etc. That happens in most companies, large or small, with new projects. And that is exactly what happened in CIG from the early days in 2010 - 2012 where Chris Roberts started that work with the help of the likes of Cryengine staff and other third party companies like Simplygon etc. It is all part of the development process and timeline.

    Alternatively, if you want to eliminate that early prototyping and concept phase from your arbitrary way of seeing things then you would probably need to shave off several years aswell from many other actual released games development timelines out there. I.e if SC is only 6 years in according to you, then CP2077 also likely only took 5 years to develop etc etc.
    Last edited by Cloverfield; 2022-09-23 at 09:29 AM.

  8. #16308
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverfield View Post
    That is SC urban myth and unfortunately incorrect I am afraid. I believe you have misunderstood what happened with those "consultations". Do you have a link?
    Ahh, that thing again... here you go:

    Quote Originally Posted by banmebaby View Post
    Wrong. They asked the community if they wanted to extra stretch goals after reaching the original goal.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitize....ls_related_to/

    Q: What should we do with the crowdfunding counter after we reach our goal? (Total Votes: 21076 - 8% of Citizens, 12% of alpha backers)
    1. 5% - Take the funds raised counter down after $23 million (mission achieved!)
    2. 7% - Have the funding counter display the amount towards the current stretch goal / feature, not the total amount once we reach $23M.
    3. 88% - Keep it up through development and continue to offer stretch goal rewards in addition to extra features and development milestones.

    Q: Should we continue to offer stretch goals? (Total Votes: 34590 - 7% of Citizens, ~14% of alpha backers)
    1. 55% - Yes
    2. 26% - No
    3. 20% - No preference

    No one really knew what the fucking they were voting for as they were extremely ambiguous with it. Not many details were actually given about these extra goals, as for the consequences that it would bring to its development time, I'll just quote the man himself, Chris Roberts:

    "Perhaps more importantly we can apply greater number of resources to the various tasks to ensure we deliver the full functionality sooner rather than later."

    "The purpose of the higher stretch goals is to ensure that the game-as-described is finished in the two year time period."
    "A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with said person or organization. A shill may also act to discredit opponents or critics of the person or organization in which they have a vested interest."
    Exhibit A & Exhibit B

  9. #16309
    Here is a list of many of these stretch goals:

    https://cliqist.com/2015/03/11/star-...here-are-they/

    Chris Roberts letter from the chairman posts on RSI acknowledging various funding goals:

    https://robertsspaceindustries.com/c...rt=publish_new
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-23 at 01:17 PM.

  10. #16310
    Quote Originally Posted by banmebaby View Post
    Ahh, that thing again... here you go:
    I remember voting no there, yelling against the crowd that it was enough. But the whole ordeal was akin to a bunch of kids in a candy store being asked if they want more candy. The overwhelming response would be yes no matter what.

    In hindsight, I think this is precisely what Chris knew and what he was gunning for. He wanted it - and he got it. Now we're in this spot.

    The only thing SC has been successful in is crowdfunding so far. And Chris the genius has gotten a big fat CEO salary for so many years and he didn't even have to finish a product.

  11. #16311
    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    I remember voting no there, yelling against the crowd that it was enough. But the whole ordeal was akin to a bunch of kids in a candy store being asked if they want more candy. The overwhelming response would be yes no matter what.

    In hindsight, I think this is precisely what Chris knew and what he was gunning for. He wanted it - and he got it. Now we're in this spot.

    The only thing SC has been successful in is crowdfunding so far. And Chris the genius has gotten a big fat CEO salary for so many years and he didn't even have to finish a product.
    Of course he did, and now it became the perfect excuse for his shitty lead-developer behavior.
    The dude is always miles off from the shit he says, but it’s fine, because “the community voted for it!”.

    The vast majority didn’t even vote, and those who did besides “more and better!” had no real clue what they were actually voting on.
    "A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with said person or organization. A shill may also act to discredit opponents or critics of the person or organization in which they have a vested interest."
    Exhibit A & Exhibit B

  12. #16312
    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    The only thing SC has been successful in is crowdfunding so far. And Chris the genius has gotten a big fat CEO salary for so many years and he didn't even have to finish a product.
    Not just a CEO salary. He's still the major stakeholder and CiG has put out dividends. CiG bought the IP off that thief for cash too. The dude is extracting money in as many ways as possible including a stock swap in another development studio that also pays dividends... CiG is their only customer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  13. #16313
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    Not just a CEO salary. He's still the major stakeholder and CiG has put out dividends. CiG bought the IP off that thief for cash too. The dude is extracting money in as many ways as possible including a stock swap in another development studio that also pays dividends... CiG is their only customer.
    He has made a company from the ground up that generates over 10 million a year at least that has nothing to do with players pledging, so he is entitled to a large salary of whatever it is, everything else you say is just your fantasy of uninformed ideas.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  14. #16314
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    He has made a company from the ground up that generates over 10 million a year at least that has nothing to do with players pledging, so he is entitled to a large salary of whatever it is, everything else you say is just your fantasy of uninformed ideas.
    … and without having to put out a single product, it’s impressive!

    However I do agree, people like you are entitled to pay him as much as he wants to. It’s very well deserved if you ask me.
    "A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with said person or organization. A shill may also act to discredit opponents or critics of the person or organization in which they have a vested interest."
    Exhibit A & Exhibit B

  15. #16315
    Quote Originally Posted by banmebaby View Post
    … and without having to put out a single product, it’s impressive!

    However I do agree, people like you are entitled to pay him as much as he wants to. It’s very well deserved if you ask me.
    I just don't get it. The latest financial statements I've seen have them putting out a dividend, on just the UK section of the company, in 2020, where they paid him around a $1m dividend. The company had a revenue stream of about $40m that year. He pocketed 2.5% of all revenue that year, even aside from his salary, and aside from whatever he's getting through his stock swap with turbulent. Paying dividends before there's even a product launch is just incredibly fucked up. It's essentially saying "Our business plan is not to release a game, but to swindle these marks for the foreseeable future."
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  16. #16316
    Quote Originally Posted by banmebaby View Post
    Ahh, that thing again... here you go:
    Indeed. Not only that, but a "poll in a website" is not necessary and sufficient to confirm any change in scope, especially when not even 10% of backers at the time participated.

    If CIG had really wanted to properly change the scope of the development they would have required to explicitely change the conditions of the "sale", describing the new scope and timeline, and that would have required them to communicate directly and individually to all backers asking each one of them for an explicit agreement to the change. Or failing that offer a refund. Especially if the change means a delay of over 8 years. And not a poll in a website that only a minority of the community probably was aware of. CIG is the only party managing the revenue received, and therefore any eventual change of plan, fair or unfair, is their sole responsibility, not the backers'.
    Last edited by Cloverfield; 2022-09-25 at 08:59 AM.

  17. #16317
    Quote Originally Posted by banmebaby View Post
    ... and there we go again...







    You just can't really keep track of your own bullshit, do you?
    Damn they should call you the tax man because look at those receipts

  18. #16318
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    He has made a company from the ground up that generates over 10 million a year at least that has nothing to do with players pledging, so he is entitled to a large salary of whatever it is, everything else you say is just your fantasy of uninformed ideas.
    It all has to do directly with players pledging towards SC/SQ42 I am afraid. The majority of those 10 millions is simply based on "subscription" money (mostly related to game content and dev news or early access to that content) and local tax incentives (plus some commercial promotional aspects). If players were not "pledging" that would mean there is no game nor development going on for SC. Without SC being developed there would be no subscriptions or promotion deals, nevermind local tax incentives.

    Now if you are telling me those 10 million are related to a totally different product than SC or SQ42 then I am all ears. Especially if you also do not consider tax relief as "generated" revenue

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by banmebaby View Post
    ... and there we go again...







    You just can't really keep track of your own bullshit, do you?
    Wow, @kenn9530, care to explain and reconcile all those statements? Honestly curious.
    Last edited by Cloverfield; 2022-09-25 at 09:36 AM.

  19. #16319
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    It's essentially saying "Our business plan is not to release a game, but to swindle these marks for the foreseeable future."
    It brings us to the discussion we were having some pages ago.

    "It's not a scam because if it was they would have bailed with the money", but why would they? When they can just keep printing money every year without any legal repercussions attached regardless of how this ends : )


    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverfield View Post
    Wow, @kenn9530, care to explain and reconcile all those statements? Honestly curious.
    Good luck with that, check the links in my signature, I'm still waiting : P
    "A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with said person or organization. A shill may also act to discredit opponents or critics of the person or organization in which they have a vested interest."
    Exhibit A & Exhibit B

  20. #16320
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    It would have been out by now. That game was only in development for 12 years.
    And in those 12 years, it wasn't even in active development for quite a few of them. This game has been in active development for the entire time. At least with Forever, they can use the excuse that it changed hands so explain why the quality wasn't there. What will be the excuse here if/when it releases out of an unfinished state and there are still issues with stuff. We should start a bingo board for it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    Paying dividends before there's even a product launch is just incredibly fucked up. It's essentially saying "Our business plan is not to release a game, but to swindle these marks for the foreseeable future."
    You know, there is a term for this. It is on the tip of my tongue. Starts with a P and ends in an I.

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