[Megathread] Star Citizen

[CogsNCocks]

But we know that is not true.

In the financials they released it showed they had spent $193 million or so by the end of 2017.

With each year now costing them in the region of $45 million - $50 million they will now have spent approximately $250 million to date.

Ok my bad, but $250 million is definately an upper estimate and it's still not anywhere near to $300 million which will unlikely to be reached by the end of the year. Regardless, income through January and Feburary has increased 30% and 50% respectively compared to same time last year which was the most successful year yet in terms of funding so this year maybe another record breaker. Anyway my point remains that the SC public alpha is not indictive by itself on whether the money is being wasted or not.

[kenn9530]

The question here is why would anyone trust that date? How many times has CR given a date in the past only to blow past it in the most spectacular fashion?
If the only thing keeping him to a date now is the existence of external investors then does that not show how little regard he has for crowdfunding backers.



The thing is, so much of this is subjective.

I disagree with development being in a reasonable time-frame given the scope because based on what has been accomplished so far would put the full game into decades of development and that is not reasonable at all.

Star citizen isnt a normal game to develop, its putting in multiple techs into one of which has never be done on this sort of scale, the game started around 2012 with 10 people, it took 5 years to get to the staffing levels of 500 and even then most studios have 2-3 times that when creating games, if you think the time its taken to develop so far is not reasonable then your in denial, maybe if the company started off with a full staff and operational studios then we could complain about development time.

SC is an evolution of gaming, while most of the techs involved already exist no other game is currently planning on implenting them in one game to this level, they probably could of released the game if they wanted a half assed product with little depth, instead they are taking the time to produce a game more indepth of which should reach SQ42 beta stage within 8 years from the start.

[Katchii]

we already have a time of when to expect a beta of SQ42 Q2 2020, chris himself probably didnt realize how the game would evolve since his first idea of the game, i like the amount of detail being put into everything of which no game is even coming close, some of it is probably over the top but it should provide a complete space game that we have yet to see.

People may hate to admit it but this game goes far out the box in terms of normal game development, current alpha of the game is very enjoyable with more than enough to do to keep you occupied. Current development time is within a more than reasonable time frame considering the scope of the game being made. Current road map of the PTU is showing up to patch 3.8 at the end of 2019, we are currently on patch 5 with the introduction of the city wide planet and a few new moons to explore, end of the year we should know the outline of 2020 concerning the MMO version of the game.

Fair enough. I'll keep my eyes on it. Still feel like this has dragged on a bit longer than it should have, IMO, but nothing to do about that now. I'll just wait and see if this project ends up as amazing as everyone hopes it will be.

I am glad folks who are paying for it and playing it (at least those like you commenting about it here) in its current state are enjoying themselves.

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There's more "stuff" plus the tech development in Star Citizen than the vast majority of games already. They have plenty to show for the money spent, but what the game lacks is the economy/subsumption system to tie everything together into a compelling gameplay loop, but I'm not sure we'll see huge gains on that front until server meshing is ready to connect all the servers into a single universe. Then you have SQ42 which exists behind closed doors, we got a glipmse into some of the big set pieces in the last trailer(such as Gary Oldman looking over the burning wreck) and that kind of stuff takes a ton of time and is really expensive to create(kind of like set pieces in blockbuster films taking a massive chunk of the budget). There's multiple varieties of huge human and alien capital ships that have full interactable and on-foot traversable interiors still to come and those take thousands upon thousands of man hours to build so they can't be cheap either. So obviously, not everything available in the SC alpha build at this time is indictive of where the money is being spent.

They also haven't spend anywhere near $300 million, they barely even spent $200 million yet lol jeezus you people worming your little lies into everything.

I've already commented on my misquote of the spend. I was basing it on a number I saw last year + the $46 million I knew they received + an assumed couple months increase. For some reason thought it was in the neighborhood of $280-290 based on that. Still am confused about exactly how much they have though, because I do remember them having ~$200 million late last year, and that was before they received a $46 million commitment. The ~$221 million published on their website seems low....but I have to take that at face value I suppose.

And yes, the game has LOTS of stuff in it and some incredible tech. But until relatively recently they showed terrible project management skills. They really only started managing to hit their published deadlines within the last year or so. Which is good, but means they were inefficient before that.

Nothing to do about that now except wait for this beast to get to a point where it can be released. I do hope it gets there soon, and in a state that makes not only the enthusiasts happy but also at least SOME of the people like me who are just curious about it.

[1001]

Star citizen isnt a normal game to develop, its putting in multiple techs into one of which has never be done on this sort of scale, the game started around 2012 with 10 people, it took 5 years to get to the staffing levels of 500 and even then most studios have 2-3 times that when creating games,

Don't forget they were outsourcing to 6 or so studios until 2015 or so. By doing that they had teams that are trained and know how to work together, it was fully intended that this would make up for CIG not having a 500 employee studio.

...if you think the time its taken to develop so far is not reasonable then your in denial, maybe if the company started off with a full staff and operational studios then we could complain about development time.

I don't think that what has been delivered so far for the cost and time that has elapsed is reasonable. A large allowance has to be made for their streaming tech, that's something that is really good but given all the claims that CIG have made over the years I cannot help but feel that things are not moving along anywhere near fast enough. eg 99.5 more systems to implement. Take Chris's presentation in 2016 where he said that travelling to new systems would be available at the end of 2017 and yet here we are 2 years later and they are absolutely nowhere near that happening.

SC is an evolution of gaming, while most of the techs involved already exist no other game is currently planning on implenting them in one game to this level, they probably could of released the game if they wanted a half assed product with little depth, instead they are taking the time to produce a game more indepth of which should reach SQ42 beta stage within 8 years from the start.

On the surface it seems like an evolution but in practical terms? 3 years after 3.0 release and missions still barely work, characters clip through almost everything, the physics is extremely buggy a lot of the time. For a project that has been worked on for 7 years I find that it concerning that they cannot nail down these things. And they are things nearly all other games get nailed.

I really hope it's a good game, it would be awful to think that people end up spending $400 - $500 million and the game is a janky pile of shiny tech with semi-polished tier 1 features that only work half the time.

[Odeezee]

Origin 300i on Arc Corp coming into land at Area 18:



Area 18 Plaza:

[Justpassing]

Nice, more screenshots. Some games release patches - that's pretty good too I'd say.

[CogsNCocks]

Nice, more screenshots. Some games release patches - that's pretty good too I'd say.

lol, those are player taken screenshots from the new patch, good lord you people just love basking in your own ignorance don't you?

Anyway moving on...



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I pretty severely misquoted how much was raised, but I'm a little confused. According to the website, it's at $221 million, but I remember it being over $200 million last year and that was before a $46 million donation late 2018. So I'm not really clear on exactly how much it has, but it's not $300 million.

I understand you in regards to not wanting them to release an unfinished and unpolished product. I'm just not convinced that it absolutely NEEDED this amount of money for it to get to that point. According to that report I mentioned, in 2017 CIG spent an average of ~$4 million per month. If we assume they spent that same amount in 2018, that's $48 million, and if a game isn't meant to release until at least 2020, that's ANOTHER $48 million. But I highly doubt that their monthly spend stayed static since 2017. So it's probably more like $60+ million each year. for an additional $96-120 million spent since 2017, and that's assuming it will release in early 2020.

I also understand how established companies can do it cheaper, but that IMO, has less to do with them not having to start from the ground up, but because they have better overall project management than CIG has shown. I feel like a not insignificant amount of money was spent simply to get CIG to a point where they're competent at making a game and getting the personnel all aligned and on track as far as project management goes.

I think some people are forgetting that when this whole project launched, it was initially supposed to launch in 2014...we're a bit passed that at this point. For a few good reason, I'll admit, but the fact remains that the project has failed to meet SEVERAL deadlines since it's conception. It's gotten better in the last year or so, but at this point it's really starting to feel like one of those vacation plan meetings where they tell you if you sit for 2 hours you get a free vacation some shit, and 4 hours later you just want to GTFO.

They need to publish a release date (not a tentative target release year), I don't even really care what it is at this point so long as it's not like 2025 or something, and release it.

Dude, what's the point in all this pointless concern over things you're in no position to understand anyway?

A much better way of getting involved with Star Citizen would be buying a starter pack, installing the alpha, getting involved with the community, making community content if that's your thing and giving constructive feedback on development(things like flight model and art direction etc..., not fucking business health or budget concerns ffs) to the developers rather than pontificating over about nothing on a website the SC devs are unlikely to read or care about anyway.

[CogsNCocks]

I'm laughing more than I should at this shit...

"Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding."

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension."

... and some people still wonder why the red ending is the best ending.

Nurse we have a live one over here!!!!

[kenn9530]

Don't forget they were outsourcing to 6 or so studios until 2015 or so. By doing that they had teams that are trained and know how to work together, it was fully intended that this would make up for CIG not having a 500 employee studio.



I don't think that what has been delivered so far for the cost and time that has elapsed is reasonable. A large allowance has to be made for their streaming tech, that's something that is really good but given all the claims that CIG have made over the years I cannot help but feel that things are not moving along anywhere near fast enough. eg 99.5 more systems to implement. Take Chris's presentation in 2016 where he said that travelling to new systems would be available at the end of 2017 and yet here we are 2 years later and they are absolutely nowhere near that happening.



On the surface it seems like an evolution but in practical terms? 3 years after 3.0 release and missions still barely work, characters clip through almost everything, the physics is extremely buggy a lot of the time. For a project that has been worked on for 7 years I find that it concerning that they cannot nail down these things. And they are things nearly all other games get nailed.

I really hope it's a good game, it would be awful to think that people end up spending $400 - $500 million and the game is a janky pile of shiny tech with semi-polished tier 1 features that only work half the time.

There was not 500 people working on the project until 2015 at least of which had around 40% of development contracted, 2012 had 10%, 2013 had 25%, 2014 had 75%, this is a rough estimate of people working on the project including contracted compared to a full staff we have now.

The tech is an important part considering it along with other things generate 8-9 million a month for development, this is by far the most challenging game to create by far, just 1 ship take several months to get ready as with a ship for say in Elite probably weeks and there are far more ships in SC, the detail in the game is the main thing thats making it take this amount of time.

A sandbox game take 5-6 years to complete, diablo 3 took 11 years before it came to be, i wouldn't expect a game like SC to be done in the same time unless it was fully backed by an experienced developer, but with the quality of games that comes out these days a rushed release is very bad for a game, there is plenty games to play atm and im happy to wait a little longer, the game atm plays reasonably well, obviously things are not perfect but no point in working to polish it until beta.

[Katchii]

Dude, what's the point in all this pointless concern over things you're in no position to understand anyway?

A much better way of getting involved with Star Citizen would be buying a starter pack, installing the alpha, getting involved with the community, making community content if that's your thing and giving constructive feedback on development(things like flight model and art direction etc..., not fucking business health or budget concerns ffs) to the developers rather than pontificating over about nothing on a website the SC devs are unlikely to read or care about anyway.

I'm a gamer curious about the game, that's all. I'm not about to give money to a company I have very little faith in being able to actually release a decent finished product, because up to this point they have shown they're not yet capable of that. What they have shown is a lot of good ideas, good tech, and the ability to make a beautiful world. But there's no finished product yet.

I couldn't care less about how exactly they do flight models, art direction, or anything else specifically related to game design it's their game they should be the ones deciding on how that shit works, and making sure it does work. It's their vision, they are the ones that need to realize that vision, not me. I do care about business health and finance because that's how the game will get made...can't finish the game if the business doesn't exist anymore or there's no money to do it.

I'll buy the game if or when it comes out and it turns out to be decent. They won't get anything from me before that.

[CogsNCocks]

I'm a gamer curious about the game, that's all. I'm not about to give money to a company I have very little faith in being able to actually release a decent finished product, because up to this point they have shown they're not yet capable of that. What they have shown is a lot of good ideas, good tech, and the ability to make a beautiful world. But there's no finished product yet.

All those things give me faith that they do have what it takes to make a decent "finished" product. Yeah, it'll never be finished until they shutdown the servers though, kind of like any other MMO..... and don't expect a big release date either, CIG will simply announce they will stop wiping player progress one day and that will be your release. Chris Roberts said that will probably happen once Server Meshing is live.

I couldn't care less about how exactly they do flight models, art direction, or anything else specifically related to game design it's their game they should be the ones deciding on how that shit works, and making sure it does work. It's their vision, they are the ones that need to realize that vision, not me. I do care about business health and finance because that's how the game will get made...can't finish the game if the business doesn't exist anymore or there's no money to do it.

You demonstrate here that once again you do not understand the spirit of the project, and perhaps indeed why the game will never be for you. Ongoing backer feedback has had a profound impact on Star Citizen, and moreso than perhaps any other game! No I'm not saying backers are designing the game, but CIG have been distilling backer feedback, watching how people play the alpha and incorporating that feeback and observations in their own way into the game in such a way that the end product will be completely different than what would have been if the case were the game were being developed behind closed doors. If you want a game developed under more traditional circumstances then yeah, there's plenty of those found elsewhere. So in the event you do decide to play the game one day, you will be experiencing something that was heavily influnced in its creation by thousands of voices and millions of hours of playtime throughout the games development.

I'll buy the game if or when it comes out and it turns out to be decent. They won't get anything from me before that.

By all means, but please try to understand that CIG isn't Blizzard or EA churning out a product by a specific release date that everyone takes out of its plastic wrapping, plays and then throws aside for the next thing. Perhaps this is where your frustrations are coming from, not really understanding what the project is about. Being involved with the game from conception to the day player progress is no longer wiped and beyond is part of the whole Star Citizen experience.

[oplawlz]

Being involved with the game from conception to the day player progress is no longer wiped and beyond is part of the whole Star Citizen experience.

No, that's part of the QA experience. People get paid to do that.

[CogsNCocks]

No, that's part of the QA experience. People get paid to do that.

Nope, QA finds bugs, get back in your shell please. Cheers

[oplawlz]

Nope, QA finds bugs, get back in your shell please. Cheers

Hey man, you want to pay to test someone elses game that's on you, but publicly ridiculing you for it is part of my mmo-champion experience.

[MrAnderson]

They won't get anything from me before that.

They already got your attention though!

Star Citizen from a Elite Commander perspective:

[Kyanion]

Dude, what's the point in all this pointless concern over things you're in no position to understand anyway?

A much better way of getting involved with Star Citizen would be buying a starter pack, installing the alpha, getting involved with the community, making community content if that's your thing and giving constructive feedback on development(things like flight model and art direction etc..., not fucking business health or budget concerns ffs) to the developers rather than pontificating over about nothing on a website the SC devs are unlikely to read or care about anyway.

As if you're in a position to understand anything either. Oh yes that's a perfect solution to that money pit. Pay money to the incompetent company who misses deadline after deadline and play their game.

Of course the devs are unlikely to read or care about this, they're too busy raking in cash for suckers paying for jpegs and failing to release a game before 2020.

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They already got your attention though!

Not quite the same as getting their money though.

[1001]

There was not 500 people working on the project until 2015 at least of which had around 40% of development contracted, 2012 had 10%, 2013 had 25%, 2014 had 75%, this is a rough estimate of people working on the project including contracted compared to a full staff we have now.

But by everyone's admission the scope grew significantly mid 2015 onwards in which case they wouldn't have needed such a large studio prior to then.

The tech is an important part considering it along with other things generate 8-9 million a month for development, this is by far the most challenging game to create by far, just 1 ship take several months to get ready as with a ship for say in Elite probably weeks and there are far more ships in SC, the detail in the game is the main thing thats making it take this amount of time.

No, they're not generating 8-9 million a month, that would give a yearly income of 96-108 million (which is about 3x their actual income).

The detail is certainly impressive but it is also a ball and chain considering the size of the intended game, the amount of planets, cities etc.

A sandbox game take 5-6 years to complete, diablo 3 took 11 years before it came to be, i wouldn't expect a game like SC to be done in the same time unless it was fully backed by an experienced developer, but with the quality of games that comes out these days a rushed release is very bad for a game, there is plenty games to play atm and im happy to wait a little longer, the game atm plays reasonably well, obviously things are not perfect but no point in working to polish it until beta.

Diablo 3 took that long because they scrapped and restarted the project at least once. There are lots of games that don't take that long, WoW, while not a sandbox, only took 4 years. The important difference though is that scrapping or overhauling a game has no cost for the customer unlike making large changes in the design of Star Citizen or Squadron 42.
I also expect SC to take a significant amount of time but looking at what they have done in 7 years and then how much more they have to do... 11 years is going to seem like a dream.

[MrAnderson]

Not quite the same as getting their money though.

And it should stay like that, neither CIG and the Star Citizen community needs more grumpy gamers to babysit so it's better off if you stay away. That way everybody wins

[Cyclone Jack]

I don't think that what has been delivered so far for the cost and time that has elapsed is reasonable. A large allowance has to be made for their streaming tech, that's something that is really good but given all the claims that CIG have made over the years I cannot help but feel that things are not moving along anywhere near fast enough. eg 99.5 more systems to implement. Take Chris's presentation in 2016 where he said that travelling to new systems would be available at the end of 2017 and yet here we are 2 years later and they are absolutely nowhere near that happening.

And what happened between then and now? Planets. Planets, IMO, derailed *everything*. They were originally intended to be a post-release tech, but since they were able to get it in earlier than expected, they fully invested into planets which greatly delayed release, including re-doing SQ42 to include planetary missions. Don't get me wrong, I think their planetary tech is really nice, and I like that it adds quite a bit to the game, but there is no denying that it has had a massive impact on production of the game.

[Katchii]

[SNIP]

By all means, but please try to understand that CIG isn't Blizzard or EA churning out a product by a specific release date that everyone takes out of its plastic wrapping, plays and then throws aside for the next thing. Perhaps this is where your frustrations are coming from, not really understanding what the project is about. Being involved with the game from conception to the day player progress is no longer wiped and beyond is part of the whole Star Citizen experience.

Perhaps. I'll leave this to the enthusiastic, optimistic people like you who are excited about this game. I'm pretty ambivalent towards the game itself, I'm just skeptical about the process they're using to make it.

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They already got your attention though!

Star Citizen from a Elite Commander perspective:

The game does not have my attention, the project does. I know it's kind of a semantics thing, but I haven't seen anything about the game except the screenshots people post here. I don't watch videos. The only thing I saw was a buddy of mine who was playing it when I showed up at his house and he did nothing but tour his newly bought $250 ship. It looked nice, but that was about it.

At this point I'm not truly interested in the game, I'm paying attention to the project that's making it.